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summarize the discussion about desired features of the new remote controls . </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

the team came up with three general desired features about their new tv remote controls . first , it should be universal ( which was the one for all type things ) . second , the remote controls were required to be slim . most importantly , it should be different from the rest in the market , suggesting that the new remote controls would be with some kinds of a gimmick , such as whistling for retrieval .

why did the team discuss the desired features of the new tv remote controls ? </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

there were two reasons . the first was that the unit price of each remote control was relatively high ( twenty-five euros ) . therefore , in order to increase customers ' willingness to spend so much money on one single remote control , the features must be satisfying and good enough . the second was the competition since there were other tv remote controls in the market . the new tv remote controls shall be special and different from the rest so as to attract customers .

how did the team come up with these features of the new tv remote controls ? </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

basically , they summarized from their daily experience . the project manager pointed out the user interface only bought the sort of one for all type things . also , the user interface and project manager both agreed that a little gimmick was able to make a difference . for example , you could whistle to retrieve lost items .

summarize the discussion about the importance of good looks and sizes of remote controls . </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

in the discussion , the team agreed that the good look and size were two vital features of the new tv remote controls . unfortunately , the team failed to reach a consensus in this meeting about the size , but they left it to the next meeting .

why did the team agree that a good look was important to the new tv remote controls ? </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

according to marketing , people were more willing to play with a good-looking remote control when they were watching movies or playing electronic devices . the rest of the team approved of this idea since people tended to have a good design in hand .

why did the team could n't think of the satisfying size of the new tv remote controls ? </s> project manager: uh , making a profit of fifty million euros . industrial designer: alright so twenty five . user interface: mm 'kay . project manager: so , it 's go gon na have to be be pretty damn trendy . industrial designer: so yeah , i 've the only the only remote controls i 've used usually come with the television , and they 're fairly basic . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so uh project manager: yeah , i was thinking that as well , i think the the only ones that i 've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things where they 're , user interface: yeah the universal ones . yeah . industrial designer: mm . project manager: yeah . so presumably that might be an idea to put into . industrial designer: but but to sell it for twenty five you need a lot of neat features . for sure . marketing: slim . project manager: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: uh 'cause i mean , what uh twenty five euros , that 's about i dunno , fifteen pounds or so ? and that 's quite a lot for a remote control . user interface: mm-hmm , it 's about that . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: user interface: um well my first thoughts would be most remote controls are grey or black . as you said they come with the tv so it 's normally just your basic grey black remote control functions , project manager: uh-huh . user interface: so maybe we could think about colour ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: make that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um i thought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle , project manager: okay . the the keyrings , yeah yeah . user interface: you know those things ? because we always lose our remote control . industrial designer: right . marketing: uh yeah uh , project manager: okay , that 's cool . marketing: being as a marketing exper expert i will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control or any other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? what are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ? project manager: okay . marketing: what speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . so before deciding or before finalising this project , we must discuss all these things , like user interface: okay . marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they are watching movies or playing with or playing with their c_d_ player , m_p_ three player like any electronic devices . user interface: mm . mm-hmm . marketing: they really want to have something good , having a good design in their hands , project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so , yes , project manager: 'kay . marketing: all this . industrial designer: uh , what do we think a project manager: so , we 're looking for 'kay . industrial designer: what do we think a good size would be for this ? project manager: we 're marketing: industrial designer: 'cause i i know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunky project manager: sorry , carry on . user interface: industrial designer: and there 's just like a hundred buttons on it , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . then you lose it , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: kind of um , maybe more like a p_d_a_ kind of , just hand held , like , project manager: for for uh user interface: 'cause project manager: remember we 're trying to make it for twelve euros fifty . user interface: yeah . no , i was n't , no sorry i was n't thinking of the screen of like a p_d_a_ project manager: okay well right we 'll have to um i 'll user interface: but project manager: we 're k having another meeting in half an hour so um user interface: okay . project manager: we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we 'll allocate . so you do the looking around at other remote controls . marketing: yeah . project manager: um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes and suggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um basically how how it 's made i_e_ like how you make it all in one , how what sort of materials are available to you whatever . and obviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach . industrial designer: right . project manager: which will probably just usurp what i said so user interface: so you want me to look at shapes and everything you said ? project manager: shapes and colours and um basically how to make it attractive . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: uh . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: project manager: and you look at competition and design . marketing: yep . project manager: cool . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: so industrial designer: project manager: we have uh industrial designer: wait for emails ? marketing: uh . project manager: um . industrial designer: project manager: industrial designer: hmm . project manager: industrial designer: project manager: okay , groovy . and no doubt we 'll get um user interface: oh no , . project manager: sorry . user interface: sorry project manager: we 'll get um warnings for next meetings as well . user interface: it 's okay . okay , cool . project manager: okay . i shall i ca n't imagine these are worth much . marketing: hmm . project manager: okay . fashion into electronic . okay .

industrial designer pointed out that too many buttons would get the remote controls too big and clunky . however , a really small and slim one was very likely to be lost . the user interface then proposed a pda or hand-held kind of remote controls . unfortunately , it was not friendly to the unit price .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

after project manager first went over the previous meeting and summarized the meeting agenda , inudstrial designer started the prototype presentation of the remote control . the remote control should be curved with scroll and push buttons , made by smooth plastic or spongy rubber . marketing presented the evaluation criteria of the remote control in terms of the user requirements and the trends . the remote control shall be fancy because it was heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality . finally , they confirmed the components they planned to use under the restrict of finance .

summarize the discussion about the propotype presentation about the buttons and main features the remote control . </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

user interface first summarized the propotype of the remote control discussed before . the remote control should be curved , easy to hold , nice and small with big buttons . those buttons were a scroll and some push buttons . the body of the remote control shall be smooth plastic or spongy rubber with yellow and black buttons . the remote control would be comfortable to watch because it had suitable curtature and it 's on-off was in the back .

what did user interface think about the material of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

user interface tried to envisioned the remote control in well molded and hard smooth plastic . user interface also suggested another possibility , which was a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . which option to choose would depend on cost restraints .

why did marketing and industrial designer appreciate the design of keys when talking about the propotype presentation about the buttons and main features of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

they argued that the arrangement of the keys looked like a logo , a compass point , or texting . the simple but different design could be a good feature of the remote control , and made it pop up in common remote controls .

summarize the discussion about an interactive evaluation in terms of the user requiremnets and the hot trends . </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

the group made an interactive evaluation of the remote control in terms of the user requirements and the trends . they mainly focused on the evaluation of price , fancy , color and energy . they picked another word , elegant , other than fancy to describe to design of the new remote control . the group failed to make a choice between the shape of banana and chunk , but they reached a consensus to use kinetic as the source of energy .

what did the group think about the deisgn when talking about the evaluation of the remote control ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

the remote control was quite fancy in the respect of appearance . the group picked the word elegant from aesthetic , trendy , elegant and stylish when user interface suggested using a different word to describe the remote control . still , they all agreed that fancy was more appropriate than elegant .

why did user interface disagree with industrial designer with the price when talking about the interactive evaluation in terms of the user requiremnets and the hot trends ? </s> industrial designer: project manager: um almost , there 's one more thing i have to get out of the i have to make sure that this attachment will open . industrial designer: i keep forgetting whether i 've done this . . project manager: ah-ha . okay . we 'll open that when the time is right . in the meantime closing things down , okay . let 's see what this thing does . does it come up together or disappear one of them or what ? ah , we came up together , we 're good . okay . are we ready to start ? okay . it 's now quarter of four . this is a f another forty minute one so it will end at four twenty five . okay . right . our agenda is , as before , for me to open the meeting , for us to go over the previous minutes , then for the two of you to present your prototype and for you to g um sarah present the evaluation criteria . we then have a finance aspect , which is a spreadsheet , an excel spreadsheet . and i know what you 're all thinking of , oh my , um because we 're only given a forty minute time period to get it all in , including the production evaluation . so we 're going to make a very fast track . okay . um and as you can see that 's what we do next on this thing . so the first thing i have to do is close this so that i can get to where is it ? marketing: red . project manager: i need to open mine . not the agenda . marketing: agenda three . project manager: no that th i want the minutes from the previous minutes . marketing: mm . project manager: that should be there , minutes . yeah . okay . uh from meeting three , is it alright with you if i do n't switch it to show , just use it as is ? 'cause this way i can more easily flip it . okay , um obviously all of us were here for the last meeting , we reviewed the previous minutes before that , um each of you made your presentations . um we discussed the various possibilities based on what was presented in those presentations . the market trend of fruit and veg , mm spongy , uh fancy and elegant more than technologically innovative and that more than easy . um we decided chip on print would be used . um we would use plastic with a rubber casing , i think was the consensus , powered by kinetic energy . there was no decision made on the curvatures or double curvature or straight . um perhaps the prototype will give us an inkling of that . um looking like a scroll , but it 's really a push button technology , excuse my spelling um that was actually in use , that is uh behind the scenes is push button which we uh according to kate have a very good uh grasp on doing that in production . um we decided that separate fashionable covers covering your fruit and veg might be a separate product that could be suggested to management . um and as suggested um yellow with black buttons with the company logo , a slogan and image might be a good idea based on the requirements that have been provided to us . um we did have a few production issues and coordination of the various bits and we had some conflict of ideas and cost constraints and we ran out of time . um we had to follow that up and prepare for the last one . and uh we closed as it ran out of time . is that a fair presentation of what happened ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yes . project manager: okay , back to this meeting . um we 're down to the prototype presentation . industrial designer: ta-da . user interface: alright . project manager: over to you . industrial designer: right . user interface: well . project manager: ooh , two . user interface: yeah , well you see , each made one , we did n't have enough yellow dough . project manager: ah . industrial designer: user interface: this is the one that i made . project manager: uh-huh . user interface: it is uh curved , easy to hold , hand-held , nice and small with big easy buttons . this is like a scroll , but they are push buttons and they enter takes you into the different menus . of course we need someone who 's experienced with the television . i mean this is the infrared thing that 's gon na zap at the television . uh i 'm not quite sure how to make that , but i 'm sure it will work . uh this is on off switch , 'cause i think we do need that , and i think it gives it a nice balance . project manager: 'kay . user interface: and it 's gon na have the logo imprinted on it uh in there . project manager: okay . user interface: um as for what it 's actually made of well the function of these buttons is up , down , left and right in the different menus . project manager: okay . user interface: uh position , i presume that just means right right on it , easy to see . the main feature of it is just a simple design , simple , lack of uh buttons all over the place . right ? form curved , kind of smooth , hand-held , makes it feel nice to hold . uh material , i think kate 's gon na tackle that quite a bit , but i think we have two different options , because we did make a another one , which wa uh is in the shape of banana , it 's just if you can imagine this as yellow with black buttons , like just like this but in the shape of a banana , project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: which is also nice and easy to hold and feels good and has a similar sort of scroll push button technology , just a slightly different design . project manager: user interface: also with on off switch and infrared uh i had envisioned it in hard smooth plastic . so like uh well , i dunno , what 's it like ? i guess like an existing remote control , but molded and smooth . whereas otherwise we 'd thought , like with this one or mix and match , just we were gon na see what you thought , the uh a more spongy rubber cover with spongy buttons . so we have the two options we can follow , either the smooth hard plastic or the spongy rubber , depending on cost restraints . and what we well , what conclusion we reach when we discuss it . uh material yeah , that 's what i have to say about material . can i scroll down on there and see what else industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: well colour , i think i definitely have a preference towards bright yellow with black buttons , because that 's the company colours , but if anybody 's got any other suggestions , i 'm quite willing to consider them as well . so , it just depends what you think about these ideas and if i 'm yeah , maybe , kate , you better say what you think about them . industrial designer: um well i do n't have very much to add . um the the case oops , that 's the uh on off button just come off our prototype . user interface: industrial designer: the the case can be either um spongy rubber or hard plastic . we 're not absolutely sure about a combination of the two , but it can be either of those . we have the technology to do that . um and as for the the actual components um , uh steph just said this is a quite a cheap device to manufacture . we have simple rubber push buttons um which provide all the functionality we need . um the um the diode that actually does the um infrared is at the end , it 's the stalk of the banana , or it 's just the thing at the end of this version . um so that 's for material . colour , well uh steph 's the expert on colour . um we we do n't have any particular restrictions on that . yeah , i think that 's all we 've got to say really . user interface: i thin as for as for the fruit or organic theme , i guess this one is obviously fruit shaped . industrial designer: a banana . user interface: this one has n banana , yeah . this one has no obvious connections to fruit , but because it 's round and molded , it kinda makes you think sort of organic , touchy-feely , kiddie , it 's more like yeah , you 'd expect it to be like a child 's sorta toy remote control instead of a real one , which i quite like that sort of image . 'cause it 's very big and chunky and child-friendly and industrial designer: would you care to examine the prototypes , see how they feel in the hand ? user interface: hold them , you see , you know . curvature , is it to your liking ? project manager: oh i see , the on-off 's in the back . industrial designer: yes , that 's so that your index finger automatically goes straight to it . user interface: if you do n't wan na tire out your thumbs after all . project manager: and then you can use your thumb . industrial designer: and it was partly we thought the design looked better , user interface: yeah . project manager: i could see this thing , unless it 's reinforced , having a problem with the you know user interface: breaking , project manager: yeah . user interface: oh right . well you see , that 's why hard plastic would be quite a good thing for it , because then it 'd just be rigid . marketing: i like the fact that on both of them the keys play such a prominent role . project manager: hmm . user interface: yeah , we really like we really like that design , marketing: it 's really kind of a user interface: i mean it looks just like a logo , that arrangement of the keys . like a c like a compass point , you know , marketing: mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: just up , down , left and right , and we think we could make that quite a good feature . and it 's like the the ipod scroll wheel , but better . marketing: yeah . but it 's also like texting , user interface: yeah . yeah , yeah , marketing: you do n't industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it that 's what it makes me think of , mobile phones , marketing: industrial designer: user interface: i was try i was thinking , moving your thumb like this , what does that remind me of ? industrial designer: and it 's a very simple design , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's texting . industrial designer: there 's not a lot to wrong , the components are cheap to make . marketing: it 's also in terms of um being lost it 's it 's quite it looks quite different . user interface: hmm . marketing: you know , i i d i have several four remotes , and they all look the same until you get up close and you have to user interface: yeah . marketing: you know , this is really identifiable . user interface: i mean the thing is we do need to develop our technology of i mean actually how to program the menus and what sort of , you know , text box is gon na appear at the bottom of the screen , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: but we do definitely think that it 's a viable option . project manager: okay . the next item is evaluation . marketing: no , okay . project manager: uh if that 's if you 're finished . user interface: uh yeah , we 're finished . marketing: um industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: shall i take your uh power ? project manager: oh sorry . marketing: oh . project manager: try again . marketing: okay . this is going to be a heavily interactive evaluation , and the method here is to evaluate the new remote control in terms of the user requirements and the hot trends introduced by the marketing department . so , this means we 're going to go over the priorities that were raised by uh the consumers a as well as incorporate all of our insight into this uh evaluation exercise . so i 'm going to go and use the whiteboard , and i 've made a list of criteria to look at , and so i 'm gon na i 'm gon na leave this up as the last thing , but for the evaluation it 's going to be one is true and seven is false , going over these different criteria , so one true seven false and i 'm gon na now use the um the board . okay . so um fancy , technologically innovative , easy to use , trendy , buttons , excess buttons , good buttons , ugly , sellable , and other . and in fact i hope that uh you all introduce some additional terms , because these are things that um have been brought up , some of them seem rather close , user interface: yeah , what about price , is that gon na go on there as well ? price of materials . marketing: like they overlap . mm , yeah , price . project manager: hmm . marketing: we 'll put price up at the top . user interface: not that we actually know anything about it , industrial designer: user interface: but we can we can pretend . marketing: project manager: well we will soon , unfortunately . marketing: um okay , so project manager: come on . marketing: did you say ? project manager: no , . marketing: uh okay , so wha how do we feel in terms of is this fancy ? user interface: it depends what what you mean by fancy really , 'cause when i think of fancy , i think of it 's got lots of extra sort of fripperies and , you know , like baroque curliness and which marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i 'd call these quite uh minimalist , industrial designer: yes , a plain , simple , clean design . user interface: simple and plain , but i mean i do see what it is heavily reliant on appearance instead of pure functionality , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so in that respect it is quite fancy . marketing: i yeah , so in that respect i think we 'll go with that respect . user interface: i think just maybe we need a different word other than fancy , i 'd say maybe aesthetic . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: well we have got s trendy further down , project manager: elegant . industrial designer: but project manager: elegant . marketing: elegant . industrial designer: elegant , i do n't know if i 'd call them elegant . marketing: yeah , no these are n't the exact terms that the um user interface: like stylish or aesthetic . industrial designer: stylish , yeah . marketing: yeah . elegant . we 're gon let 's use elegant , although the the the people , the word on the street is is user interface: fancy . marketing: yeah . n that um user interface: did you just break the pen ? project manager: marketing: yeah uh the uh is fancy . so let 's let 's take it to the next level . user interface: well d we 'll just call it fancy then . marketing: well okay , so in terms of elegant , fancy . we 'll call it e_f_ um , do we do we think that perhaps and maybe we should say the yellow ? should we go with the yellow in terms of i think that 's a really superior user interface: yeah , i think we n we need to marketing: they 're both user interface: they 're both yellow with black buttons , it 's just that we did n't have any more dough to represent uh that , marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . user interface: but if you can just imagine banana shape with these bits as black . marketing: yeah . user interface: so what we re really need to decide is whether we want the actual banana shape or just a a purely blob or some sort of abstraction in between the two marketing: yeah . user interface: that is n't that is more curved , like a banana , but that is n't actually recognisable as a banana , you know , with the grooves and the stalk and stuff , marketing: as a banana . user interface: so . marketing: i think that many of us are abstract enough to look at the yellow one and say we 'll call it the banana . project manager: yeah . marketing: and of the two i really like i m i like the banana , project manager: the chunk . marketing: but i i do like the chunk . user interface: so that 's maybe not something we have to decide just right now , is it . marketing: no , user interface: just somewhere a long the scale of in between these two . marketing: but i mean in terms we have to evaluate one of them . unless do you guys wan na evaluate both ? project manager: i think between the two , somewhere between the two is true . industrial designer: yeah , i 'd project manager: it 's more true than false , about a two . marketing: okay . so we say true . technologically innovative . user interface: industrial designer: i d i do n't think that 's what we 're aiming at with this concept . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 're using simple components that are gon na be robust but not particularly innovative . marketing: so we 'll say we 'll say uh false . easy to use . industrial designer: very . user interface: yes . marketing: one , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: is that inappropriate ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . oh , pardon me . um project manager: trendy . user interface: oh yes . marketing: trendy , s and i say specifically spongy fruity . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: well , maybe only a two or a three then , 'cause it 's no we still have n't decided about specific sponginess or specific industrial designer: we have the worry about how robust it will be if it 's it 's curved as a banana but spongy . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: i think user interface: yeah , i do n't really think that 's gon na work , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: but marketing: okay , so two ? um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: excess buttons . marketing: are there excess buttons ? project manager: no . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: that is false . industrial designer: so that 's false . marketing: um good , well designed buttons , intuitive buttons . project manager: better , more intuitive buttons , yes . marketing: true . ugly . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . project manager: no . marketing: people do n't respond well to ugly . sellable , uh quirky , you know , something people industrial designer: yeah , i think they 're different , are n't they ? user interface: well it is quite it is quite quirky i think . marketing: like oh , project manager: i like it . marketing: yeah . yeah , i do too . user interface: it could be quite a good brand , like a good little object . marketing: oh yeah . and i was i was thinking of other things um in terms of uh could we say it 's cost saving ? with the user interface: oh , we also need tho think about the energy . is it the kinetic energy ? marketing: yeah , with the energy . industrial designer: mm . user interface: if it 's it is gon na be environmentally friendly with the kinetic energy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it is going to be kinetic ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we 'll c we 'll say it 's a cost saving enviro . yeah , uh so yes . user interface: yeah , but we have n't completely developed that side of it yet , so we 're not completely sure about that , marketing: well user interface: but yeah . marketing: you 're still in the play-doh stage . user interface: yeah . marketing: anything else ? including price , do you have any idea about price or other features ? industrial designer: well i think our instinct is that it should be pretty cheap to develop . we have n't got a lot of expensive components in there . project manager: yes , the instinct says true . marketing: okay . so true one or should i go to two or three ? industrial designer: i 'd put it at one i think , but i dunno , what do you user interface: i would say maybe a two , marketing: okay . user interface: 'cause we still we need to uh get somebody in who is good with the programming for the menus and things . industrial designer: yeah , true , user interface: i mean it 's not just like i mean it 's not like ev you know , on a normal chunky remote every button res i mean means something different , project manager: yeah , that 's not a cheap thing to get . industrial designer: it might be the yeah , yeah , true . true . user interface: whereas this one has only got the four buttons and they all they mean everything , depending on what menu you 're in . project manager: hmm . industrial designer: yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: uh we need somebody to develop that . marketing: um other ? anything else you guys can thing of ? and i 'm gon na actually change a couple of these so then i 'm gon na instead of ugly i 'm gon na say it 's attractive and then make that true , so that user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause i have to do an average . industrial designer: right . marketing: and then um excess buttons . user interface: just putting no excess buttons . marketing: exactly . wow we 're doing really well . yeah , be you know , user interface: as for marketing: so it does n't ruin the polarity . user interface: see if we 're technologically innovative , i 'd say it is quite innovative , because there are n't really many that have this menu idea instead of all the extra buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: i mean i know we 're not doing anything involving internet or speech recognition but but we are at the upper end of the push button market . marketing: or lcd . yeah . well if you g uh let me know if if any of these um if you if you all can think of any other um thing to change here if you th if you think i should change the innovative or add other features . if not i 'll average those . project manager: i think we 're good . marketing: okay . mm . project manager: okay . we 're a little over halfway through the meeting marketing: so project manager: and the next big thing is the finance . okay . marketing: um okay , how about if i uh pass this back to you project manager: yep . marketing: and i 'll uh figure out the average here . project manager: right . marketing: thank you for everyone 's help with that . project manager: right . and as you can see it says the same thing , it had not lost itself , thank goodness . and we 're going to raise what 's called a sp a spreadsheet that they provided to me . um and it says fill in the number of components you plan to use in your device . user interface: project manager: hand dynamo , battery , kinetic , solar cells . okay . user interface: well , just kinetic then , . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um what 's a hand dynamo ? industrial designer: that was the crank , wind-up crank on the side . user interface: it 's the wind-up . project manager: oh marketing: project manager: shoot , forget that . kinetic is um and how many of those will we need per we only need one . industrial designer: just one . project manager: okay . electronic simple chip on print , and we 'll need one of those . industrial designer: uh uh yeah , i think we can do it all with simple just checking that . yeah , simple , 'cause we 've just got push buttons , so we can do it all with simple which is the ch should be the cheapest . project manager: okay , and we only need one of those . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay , the case will be uncurved and flat or a single curve or a double curve . it looks like it single curve , 'cause of th the chunkiness . it 's industrial designer: yeah , that that one is single curve , project manager: that 's uh uh one . industrial designer: is n't it ? um do we have project manager: and that 's user interface: what does double curved mean , i do n't understand . industrial designer: i i think you it means you reverse the curve . project manager: uh that 's the the one that goes like this . industrial designer: yeah . yeah , i do i do n't think we need that for either of them , user interface: oh no , we do n't need that . no . project manager: right . industrial designer: you can do a banana in single curve , project manager: no , user interface: single-curved , i 'd say . project manager: single curve . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , case material supplements . plastic , wood , rubber , titanium , special colour . user interface: i industrial designer: user interface: i just wan na say plastic . project manager: we had the special colour . and did we say plastic ? industrial designer: yeah , can we do some what ifs , 'cause it may project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean i i still quite like the idea of combining plastic and rubber myself , marketing: one , two , three , four , five , six . industrial designer: but it depends on the cost , i guess . project manager: okay . we 'll come back , if we can , to the rubber being added at the moment , that 's where we are . interface button push button interface . that 's what we 're using , user interface: it 's just button . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: is n't it ? industrial designer: yep . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: do we need to say how many buttons , or project manager: whoops , do n't want that , not yet . um industrial designer: or d is it just one ? project manager: no , it just says push button interface . button supplements , they 'll be in a special colour of black . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: and the buttons wha what is the buttons made of , rubber ? industrial designer: uh they 'll be rubber , yep . project manager: so we need one of them . and are they any special form ? user interface: well yeah , like the compass point one . industrial designer: actually , does tha does special material mean that plastic is not a special material ? 'cause i think they can be plastic . project manager: 'cause the rate we 're going we can put the rubber on top . industrial designer: yeah . they could be plastic , we do n't have to have rubber buttons , project manager: oh . industrial designer: because we have n't got a double curved case . user interface: yeah , they could be plastic . project manager: okay . um let 's put that rubber in then , of the case material supplement . industrial designer: it 's just one , is n't it ? project manager: uh we only need one of them . um and the total cost has been calculated as nine pounds twenty out of the twelve and a half we were allowed . industrial designer: what , we 're in . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 're in . that 's us . industrial designer: more profit . user interface: great . project manager: okay , i 'm going to save this into our desktop , project documents . okay . as our project document bit . industrial designer: do you do you need to double click on that to open it ? project manager: yeah . there we are . that 's the only excel document that will be in there , so it 's there for all of us . okay , so , are they under twelve fifty ? yes , go to the project evaluation , next slide . user interface: yes . project manager: right . um the project process , satisfaction with , for example , the room for creativity . yeah , leadership , teamwork , user interface: yeah . marketing: sure . yes . project manager: means , of having whiteboard , the digital pens and all that kind of good things . marketing: user interface: and play-doh . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , the play-doh was best , i thought . project manager: user interface: yeah well , 'cause i mean it 's so hard to describe what you mean just with words and pointing at photographs and saying , well we quite want this , but imagine it rounder . so much better just to go and , you know , this is it , this is what we want . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so , we went over all those things and we 're satisfied with all the above . marketing: yep . project manager: um did we find any new ideas ? marketing: i think with the marketing element of uh fruit shaped i i mean i that really opened my eyes . user interface: yeah . spongy . marketing: i i only speak for myself though . user interface: and i 'd never heard of the kinetic energy before , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so . good work as a design team , industrial designer: yeah , i think we 're a good team actually . user interface: because we industrial designer: i 'm not sure all the wires are really great though . project manager: so we actually worked well as a group . industrial designer: i thought so . project manager: right . are the costs within the budget ? yes . user interface: oh yes . marketing: yes . project manager: is the project evaluated ? industrial designer: yes . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yes . marketing: i can give you a number , industrial designer: hang on , oh we have n't heard . project manager: uh-huh . marketing: um it 's uh the average evaluation score is one point eight eight , so it means w you know , i can i can spell it out . there were six true or ones , four um pardon me , two s almost true or close to true , so that was four points , and then uh one false , seven points , so seventeen divided by nine we 're between one and two . i would say that 's ex excellent in terms of uh ho how much we adhere to the ideals of the uh market place . user interface: yeah . and the the only false one is because we 've chosen to keep a simple old technology , marketing: to maintain old technology , exactly . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: which if it works perfectly well i see no point in improving on if it works , marketing: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: absolutely , and it 's kept us within budget . user interface: so . yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so we do count as i think excellent or one . project manager: alright . user interface: . project manager: and we 've therefore we have to do the final questionnaire and do the meeting summary , i have a final report to present , um and then we 're done . marketing: okay . project manager: we done good , and we 're finished in time . user interface: bring on the ice sculptures . marketing: nice . industrial designer: and then we get the product launch party . marketing: so we might have to wait . industrial designer: product launch party ? user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: that 's what i said , ice sculptures . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: absolutely . marketing: um i one thing i want to do is oh , i think the meeting 's done . project manager: i believe that is the end of our meeting . thank you , melissa . marketing: yeah . um one thing i wa i wan na do is save everything in the right files , because i do n't think everything is saved . the right files . final meeting market

industrial designer thought the remote control would be cheap to develop because they did n't use any expensive components . but user interface argued that it would cost a lot to find someone with good technology of programming and develop the innovative user interface .

what ’ s the summary of the meeting ? </s> grad b: so i guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , johno . this is what , uh , grad c: this is a meeting for me . grad b: um , eva , bhaskara , and i did . grad d: did you add more stuff to it ? later ? grad b: um . why ? grad d: um . i do n't know . there were , like , the you know , @ @ and all that stuff . but . i thought you you said you were adding stuff grad b: uh , no . grad d: but i do n't know . grad b: this is um , ha ! very nice . um , so we thought that , we can write up uh , an element , and for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the bayes - net ? so . what 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? is it under construction ? or is it on fire or something happening to it ? or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through parking , location , hotel , car , restroom , @ @ { comment } riots , fairs , strikes , or disasters . grad c: so is this is a situation are is all the things which can be happening right now ? or , what is the situation type ? grad b: that 's basically just specifying the the input for the w what 's grad c: oh , i see y why are you specifying it in xml ? grad b: um . just because it forces us to be specific about the values here ? grad c: ok . grad b: and , also , i mean , this is a what the input is going to be . right ? so , we will , uh this is a schema . this is grad c: well , yeah . i just do n't know if this is th l what the does this is what java bayes takes ? as a bayes - net spec ? grad b: no , because i mean if we i mean we 're sure gon na interface to we 're gon na get an xml document from somewhere . right ? and that xml document will say `` we are able to we were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ { comment } of the location that the car is near . `` so that 's gon na be { comment } um . grad c: so this is the situational context , everything in it . is that what situation is short for , shi situational context ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: so this is just , again , a an xml schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible xml structures , which we view as input into the bayes - net . right ? grad c: and then we can r uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? that put it into the format that the bayes n or java bayes or whatever wants ? grad b: yea - are you talking are you talking about the the structure ? grad c: well it grad b: i mean when you observe a node . grad c: when you when you say the input to the v java bayes , { comment } it takes a certain format , grad b: um - hmm . grad c: right ? which i do n't think is this . although i do n't know . grad b: no , it 's certainly not this . nuh . grad c: so you could just could n't you just run a grad b: xsl . { comment } yeah . grad c: yeah . to convert it into the java bayes for format ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: that 's that 's no problem , but i even think that , um i mean , once once you have this sort of as running as a module right ? what you want is you wan na say , `` ok , give me the posterior probabilities of the go - there node , when this is happening . `` right ? when the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . and with this you can specify the what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . so we get after we are done , through the situation we get the user vector . so , this is a grad c: so this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ? grad b: yep . and , all the possible outputs , too . so , we have , um , for example , the , uh , go - there decision node grad c: ok . grad b: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gon na be all the decision nodes and all the the a all the posterior probabilities for all the values . grad c: and then we would just look at the , eh , struct that we wan na look at in terms of if if we 're only asking about one of the so like , if i 'm just interested in the going - there node , i would just pull that information out of the struct that gets return that would that java bayes would output ? grad b: um , pretty much , yes , but i think it 's a little bit more complex . as , if i understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . so , when we input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . right ? grad c: ok . grad b: so there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the eva values . grad c: yeah , wait i agree , that 's yeah , use oh , uh yeah , ok . grad b: so so we get this whole list of of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . so y you said if you `` i 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not `` , then i just look at that node , look which one grad c: look at that struct in the output , grad b: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: look at that struct in the the output , even though i would n't call it a `` struct `` . but . grad c: well i well , it 's an xml structure that 's being res returned , grad b: oh . mm - hmm . grad c: right ? grad b: so every part of a structure is a `` struct `` . yeah . grad c: yeah , i just uh i just was abbreviated it to struct in my head , and started going with that . grad b: that element or object , i would say . grad c: not a c struct . that 's not what i was trying to k grad b: yeah . grad c: though yeah . grad b: ok . and , um , the reason is why i think it 's a little bit more complex or why why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is um . so . the , uh let 's look at an example . grad c: well , w would n't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ? grad b: yeah . w we 'd need to prune . right ? throw things away . grad c: well , actually , you do n't even need to do that with xml . grad b: no grad c: d ca n't you just look at one specific grad b: yeah , exactly . the @ @ { comment } xerxes allows you to say , u `` just give me the value of that , and that , and that . `` but , we do n't really know what we 're interested in before we look at the complete at at the overall result . so the person said , um , `` where is x ? `` and so , we want to know , um , is does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? or does he want to go there ? let 's assume this is our our question . grad c: sure . grad b: nuh ? so . um . do this in perl . so we get ok . let 's assume this is the output . so . we should con be able to conclude from that that i mean . it 's always gon na give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and does n't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . but , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . so , does he wan na know where it is ? or does he wan na go there ? grad c: he wants to know where it is . grad b: right . i i i tend to agree . and if it 's if grad c: well now , y i mean , you could grad b: and i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um and this is pretty , uh indifferent , then we then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does want to go there . grad c: uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we would n't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be the question for we have `` where is x ? `` is the question , right ? that would just be info - on or location ? based upon grad b: or go - there . a lot of people ask that , if they actually just wan na go there . people come up to you on campus and say , `` where 's the library ? `` you 're gon na say y you 're gon na say , g `` go down that way . `` you 're not gon na say `` it 's it 's five hundred yards away from you `` or `` it 's north of you `` , or `` it 's located `` grad c: well , i mean but the there 's so you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together . grad b: um . i do n't know whether i understand what you mean . but . again , in this given this input , we , also in some situations , may wan na postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . so , it n i mean a all i 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gon na get the full output . and some some things will always be sort of too not significant enough . grad c: wha or i or i it 'll be tight . you wo n't it 'll be hard to decide . grad b: yep . grad c: but i mean , i guess i guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . so if you had if for every construction , grad b: oh ! grad c: right ? you could say , `` well , there here 's the where - is construction . `` and for the where - is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: as for th to decide the response . and since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes . grad b: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it would n't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff grad b: so , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net . grad c: yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net . grad b: but , why why why only those three ? why not the whol grad c: well , i mean , d for the where - is question . so we 'd have a node for the where - is question . grad b: yeah . but we believe that all the decision nodes are can be relevant for the where - is , and the where how - do - i - get - to or the tell - me - something - about . grad c: you can come in if you want . grad b: yes , it is allowed . grad c: as long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . well , i do i see , i do n't know if this is a good idea or not . i 'm just throwing it out . but uh , it seems like we could have i mea or uh we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant into the where - is node answer grad b: mm - hmm . yep . grad c: node thing stuff . and uh grad d: ok . grad b: i mean let 's not forget we 're gon na get some very strong input from these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? so . `` tell me the location of x . `` nuh ? or `` where is x located at ? `` grad c: we u grad b: nuh ? grad c: yeah , i know , but the bayes - net would be able to the weights on the on the nodes in the bayes - net would be able to do all that , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: would n't it ? here 's a k oh ! oh , i 'll wait until you 're plugged in . oh , do n't sit there . sit here . you know how you do n't like that one . it 's ok . that 's the weird one . that 's the one that 's painful . that hurts . it hurts so bad . i 'm h i 'm happy that they 're recording that . that headphone . the headphone that you have to put on backwards , with the little little thing and the little little foam block on it ? it 's a painful , painful microphone . grad b: i think it 's th called `` the crown `` . grad c: the crown ? grad d: what ? grad b: yeah , versus `` the sony `` . grad a: the crown ? is that the actual name ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . the manufacturer . grad c: i do n't see a manufacturer on it . grad b: you w grad c: oh , wait , here it is . h this thingy . yeah , it 's `` the crown `` . the crown of pain ! grad a: yes . grad b: you 're on - line ? grad c: are you are your mike o is your mike on ? grad a: indeed . grad c: ok . so you 've been working with these guys ? you know what 's going on ? grad a: yes , i have . and , i do . yeah , alright . s so where are we ? grad c: excellent ! grad b: we 're discussing this . grad a: i do n't think it can handle french , but anyway . grad b: so . assume we have something coming in . a person says , `` where is x ? `` , and we get a certain we have a situation vector and a user vector and everything is fine ? an - an and and our and our grad c: did you just sti did you just stick the m the the the microphone actually in the tea ? grad a: no . grad b: and , um , grad a: i 'm not drinking tea . what are you talking about ? grad c: oh , yeah . sorry . grad b: let 's just assume our bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . these three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there . grad c: in terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question where - is , right ? we u this is i that 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier grad b: yeah , but , mmm . grad c: w we we 're we wan na know how to answer the question `` where is x ? `` grad b: yeah . no , i can i can do the timing node in here , too , and say `` ok . `` grad c: well , yeah , but in the s uh , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . we just want to know how we should answer `` where is x ? `` grad b: ok . and , um , ok , and , go - there has two values , right ? , go - there and not - go - there . let 's assume those are the posterior probabilities of that . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: info - on has true or false and location . so , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something he wants to know where - it - is , grad a: excuse me . grad b: has these values . and , um , grad c: oh , i see why we ca n't do that . grad b: and , um , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . our belief - net thinks he wants to go there , grad a: yeah . grad b: right ? grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: in the , uh , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some grad a: you should probably { comment } make them out of yeah . grad b: something like that , grad c: well , it grad b: then we would guess , `` aha ! he , our belief - net , { comment } has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go there . `` right ? grad c: that it does n't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ? grad d: true . grad c: like i guess they are evenly weighted . grad a: the different decision nodes , you mean ? grad c: yeah , the go - there , the info - on , and the location ? grad a: well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . yes . grad c: like grad b: what do you mean by `` differently weighted `` ? they do n't feed into anything really anymore . grad a: but i mean , why do we grad c: or i jus grad a: if we trusted the go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there . grad c: le grad a: so , in that sense , we weight them equally right now . grad b: ok . makes sense . yeah . but grad c: so the but i guess the k the question that i was as er wondering or maybe robert was proposing to me is how do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? grad a: yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . so again , it 's it 's some kind of , uh grad c: bayes - net . grad a: yeah , sure . grad c: ok so , then , the question i so then my question is t to you then , would be so is the only r reason we can make all these smaller bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? cuz oth if we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we could n't have a node for every possible question , you know ? grad a: a decision node for every possible question , you mean ? grad c: well , i like , in the case of yeah . in the ca any piece of language , we would n't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h cuz we would n't have the correct node . basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n where - is node , right ? grad a: yeah . grad c: and and if we and if someone says , you know , uh , something in mandarin to the system , we 'd - would n't know which node to look at to answer that question , grad a: so is yeah . yeah . grad c: right ? grad b: mmm ? grad c: so , but but if we have a finite what ? grad b: i do n't see your point . what what what i am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gon na get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . and now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , `` the winner is timing . now , go there . `` `` uh , go there , timing , now . `` or , `` the winner is info - on , function - off . `` so , he wants to know something about it , and what it does . nuh ? uh , regardless of of of the input . wh - regardle grad c: yeah , but but how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner , if it does n't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ? grad b: based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions . grad c: yeah i know . but how do we weight what we get out ? as , which one i which ones are important ? so my i so , if we were to it with a bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: does that make sense ? yay , nay ? grad a: um , i mean , are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? grad c: we grad a: is that your point ? grad c: well , no . i i guess my question is , is the reason that we can make a node f or ok . so , lem me see if i 'm confused . are we going to make a node for every question ? does that make sense ? grad a: for every question ? grad c: or not . grad a: like grad c: every construction . grad a: hmm . i do n't not necessarily , i would think . i mean , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , uh , there 's gon na be a node for go - there or not , and there 's gon na be a node for enter , view , approach . grad c: wel w ok . so , someone asked a question . grad a: yeah . grad c: how do we decide how to answer it ? grad b: well , look at look face yourself with this pr question . you get this you 'll have y this is what you get . and now you have to make a decision . what do we think ? what does this tell us ? and not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . what what we need is a just a mechanism that says , `` aha ! there is `` grad c: yeah . i just do n't think a `` winner - take - all `` type of thing is the grad a: i mean , in general , like , we wo n't just have those three , right ? we 'll have , uh , like , many , many nodes . so we have to , like so that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say . grad b: yep . because there are interdependencies , right ? the uh uh , no . so if if for example , the go - there posterior possibility is so high , um , uh , w if it 's if it has reached reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . so . if even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value grad c: wel i do n't know about that , cuz that would suggest that i mean grad b: he wants to go there and know something about it ? grad c: do they have to be mutual yeah . do they have to be mutually exclusive ? grad b: i think to some extent they are . or maybe they 're not . grad c: cuz i , uh the way you describe what they meant , they were n't mutu uh , they did n't seem mutually exclusive to me . grad b: well , if he does n't want to go there , even if the enter posterior proba so . grad c: wel grad b: go - there is no . enter is high , and info - on is high . grad c: well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the grad b: hmm ? grad c: those three nodes . the - d they did n't seem like they were mutually exclusive . grad b: no , there 's no . but it 's through the grad c: so th s so , yeah , but some so , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but i guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a bayes - net to deal w another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , uh , is the only reason ok , so , i guess , if we have a ba - another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? grad a: yeah . i think that 's true . grad c: and then , so , the only reason way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon oh , so if let 's say i had a construction parser , and i plug this in , i would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: and so then i would know how to weight the nodes appropriately , in response . so no matter what they said , if i could map it onto a where - is construction , i could say , `` ah ! grad a: ge mm - hmm . grad c: well the the intent , here , was where - is `` , grad a: ok , right . grad c: and i could look at those . grad a: yeah . yes , i mean . sure . you do need to know i mean , to have that kind of information . grad b: hmm . yeah , i 'm also agreeing that a simple pru { comment } take the ones where we have a clear winner . forget about the ones where it 's all sort of middle ground . prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner . yeah , because that would be the easiest way . we just compose as an output an xml mes message that says . `` go there now . `` `` enter historical information . `` and not care whether that 's consistent with anything . right ? but in this case if we say , `` definitely he does n't want to go there . he just wants to know where it is . `` or let 's call this this `` look - at - h `` he wants to know something about the history of . so he said , `` tell me something about the history of that . `` now , the e but for some reason the endpoint - approach gets a really high score , too . we ca n't expect this to be sort of at o point { comment } three , three , three , o point , three , three , three , o point , three , three , three . right ? somebody needs to zap that . you know ? or know there needs to be some knowledge that grad c: we yeah , but , the bayes - net that would merge i just realized that i had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . so then , the bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between go - there , info - on , and location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff . grad b: yep . yep . grad c: i mean , it i does that make sense ? grad b: yep . it 's sort of one of those , that 's it 's more like a decision tree , if if you want . you first look o at the lowball ones , grad c: yeah , i grad b: and then grad c: yeah , i did n't intend to say that every possible ok . there was a confusion there , k i did n't intend to say every possible thing should go into the bayes - net , because some of the things are n't relevant in the bayes - net for a specific question . like the endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the bayes - net for where - is until after you 've decided whether you wan na go there or not . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: right . grad c: show us the way , bhaskara . grad a: i guess the other thing is that um , yeah . i mean , when you 're asked a specific question and you do n't even like , if you 're asked a where - is question , you may not even look like , ask for the posterior probability of the , uh , eva node , right ? cuz , that 's what i mean , in the bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . so , i mean , you may not even bother to compute things you do n't need . grad b: um . are n't we always computing all ? grad a: no . you can compute , uh , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . basically , things you ignore get marginalized over . grad b: yeah , but that 's that 's just shifting the problem . then you would have to make a decision , grad a: yeah . so you have to make grad b: `` ok , if it 's a where - is question , which decision nodes do i query ? `` grad a: yeah . yes . but i would think that 's what you want to do . grad b: that 's un grad a: right ? grad b: mmm . grad d: well , eventually , you still have to pick out which ones you look at . grad b: yeah . grad d: so it 's pretty much the same problem , grad b: yeah it 's it 's it 's apples and oranges . grad d: is n't it ? grad b: nuh ? i mean , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: so either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant , grad a: mmm . grad b: or you just make a p @ @ { comment } a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those . grad a: yeah . grad c: so basically , you 'd have a decision tree query , go - there . if k if that 's false , query this one . if that 's true , query that one . and just basically do a binary search through the ? grad a: i do n't know if it would necessarily be that , uh , complicated . but , uh i mean , it w grad c: well , in the case of go - there , it would be . in the case cuz if you needed an if y if go - there was true , you 'd wan na know what endpoint was . and if it was false , you 'd wan na d look at either lo - income info - on or history . grad a: yeah . that 's true , i guess . yeah , so , in a way you would have that . grad c: also , i 'm somewhat boggled by that hugin software . grad a: ok , why 's that ? grad c: i ca n't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . like , i 'd look at grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: it 's somewha it 's boggling me . grad a: ok . alright . well , hopefully it 's fixable . grad c: ju grad a: it 's there 's a grad c: oh yeah , yeah . i d i just think i have n't figured out what the terms in hugin mean , versus what java bayes terms are . grad a: ok . grad b: um , by the way , are do we know whether jerry and nancy are coming ? grad a: so we can figure this out . grad b: or ? grad a: they should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . so . grad c: what d what do they need to do left ? grad a: um , i guess , jerry needs to enter marks , but i do n't know if he 's gon na do that now or later . but , uh , if he 's gon na enter marks , it 's gon na take him awhile , i guess , and he wo n't be here . grad c: and what 's nancy doing ? grad a: nancy ? um , she was sorta finishing up the , uh , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but i do n't know if she should be here . well or , she should be free after that , so assuming she 's coming to this meeting . i do n't know if she knows about it . grad c: she 's on the email list , right ? grad a: is she ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . ok . because basically , what where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together grad d: ok . grad b: sometime this week again grad a: ok . grad b: and finish up the , uh , values of this . so we have , uh believe it or not , we have all the bottom ones here . grad c: well , i grad d: you added a bunch of nodes , for ? grad b: yep . we we we have actually what we have is this line . grad d: ok . grad b: right ? grad c: uh , what do the , uh , structures do ? grad b: hmm ? grad c: so the the the for instance , this location node 's got two inputs , grad a: four inputs . grad b: hmm . grad c: that one you grad b: four . grad a: those are the bottom things are inputs , also . grad c: oh , i see . grad a: yeah . grad c: ok , that was ok . that makes a lot more sense to me now . grad b: yep . grad c: cuz i thought it was like , that one in stuart 's book about , you know , the grad a: alarm in the dog ? grad c: u yeah . grad a: yeah . grad c: or the earthquake and the alarm . grad a: sorry . yeah , i 'm confusing two . grad c: yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in java bayes , grad a: right . grad c: is n't it ? grad a: maybe . grad c: but there 's something about bowel problems or something with the dog . grad a: yeah . grad b: and we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . what we 're missing are the these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . so , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . and maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more . and , um . and then it 's just , uh , edges , many of edges . and , um , we wo n't { comment } meet next monday . so . grad c: cuz of memorial day ? grad a: we 'll meet next tuesday , i guess . grad b: yep . yeah . grad c: when 's jerry leaving for italia ? grad b: on on friday . grad a: which friday ? grad b: this this friday . grad a: ok . grad d: oh . this friday ? grad c: ugh . grad b: this friday . grad c: as in , four days ? grad b: yep . grad c: or , three days ? grad a: is he how long is he gone for ? grad b: two weeks . grad a: italy , huh ? what 's , uh what 's there ? grad b: well , it 's a country . buildings . people . grad a: pasta . grad c: but it 's not a conference or anything . grad b: hmm ? grad c: he 's just visiting . grad a: right . just visiting . grad b: vacation . grad a: it 's a pretty nice place , in my brief , uh , encounter with it . grad b: do you guys oh , yeah . so . part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back . um , so grad c: oh , i think we should disappoint him . grad b: yeah ? you or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and uh grad c: that would n't be disappointing . i think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he 's gone . grad b: well , that 's actually what i had planned , personally . i had i i had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and i do nothing . and then , i sort of grad c: oh , yeah , that sounds good , too . grad b: sort of bask in in your glory . but , uh , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because i myself am going to be , um , gone , but this is actually not really important . just this weekend we 're going camping . grad c: yeah , i 'm wan na be this gone this weekend , too . grad b: ah . but we 're all going to be here on tuesday again ? looks like it ? grad d: yeah . grad b: ok , then . let 's meet meet again next tuesday . and , um , finish up this bayes - net . and once we have finished it , i guess we can , um and that 's going to be more just you and me , because bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , uh , grad c: killing machines ! grad b: reasoning machines . grad a: yes . grad b: and , um grad c: killing , reasoning . what 's the difference ? grad d: wait . so you 're saying , next tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or or ? grad b: uh . the whole group . and we present our results , our final , grad d: ok . grad b: definite grad d: so , when you were saying we need to do a re - run of , like grad a: h what ? grad d: what like , just working out the rest of the grad b: yeah . we should do this th the upcoming days . grad d: this week ? grad b: so , this week , yeah . grad c: when you say , `` the whole group `` , you mean the four of us , and keith ? grad d: ok . grad b: and , ami might . grad c: ami might be here , and it 's possible that nancy 'll be here ? grad b: yep . grad c: so , yeah . grad b: because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done grad c: you 're just gon na have to explain it to me , then , on tuesday , how it 's all gon na work out . you know . grad b: we will . ok . because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and grad c: that you will have in about nine months or so . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: and , um , grad c: the first bad version 'll be done in nine months . grad b: yeah , i can worry about the ontology interface and you can keith can worry about the discourse . i mean , this is pretty um , i mean , i i i hope everybody uh knows that these are just going to be uh dummy values , right ? grad a: which grad b: where the grad a: which ones ? grad b: s so so if the endpoint if the go - there is yes and no , then go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . right ? grad a: um , what do you mean ? if the go - there says no , then the go - there is grad d: i do n't get it . grad a: i do n't u understand . grad b: um . grad a: like , the go - there depends on all those four things . grad b: yep . grad a: yeah . grad b: but , what are the values of the go - there - discourse ? grad a: well , it depends on the situation . if the discourse is strongly indicating that grad b: yeah , but , uh , we have no discourse input . grad a: oh , i see . the d see , uh , specifically in our situation , d and o are gon na be , uh yeah . sure . so , whatever . grad d: so , so far we have is that what the keith node is ? grad b: yep . grad d: ok . and you 're taking it out ? for now ? grad b: well , this is d grad d: or ? grad b: ok , this , i can i can get it in here . grad d: all the d 's are grad b: i can get it in here , so th we have the , uh , um , sk let 's let 's call it `` keith - johno grad a: johno ? grad b: node `` . there is an h { comment } somewhere printed . grad c: there you go . grad a: yeah . people have the same problem with my name . grad b: yeah . grad a: oops . grad b: and , um , grad c: does th th does the h go b before the a or after the a ? grad a: oh , in my name ? before the a . grad c: yeah . ok , good . cuz you kn when you said people have the same problem , i thought cuz my h goes after the uh e e e the v grad a: people have the inverse problem with my name . grad c: ok . i always have to check , every time y i send you an email , { comment } a past email of yours , { comment } to make sure i 'm spelling your name correctly . grad a: yeah . that 's good . grad c: i worry about you . grad a: i appreciate that . grad b: but , when you abbreviate yourself as the `` basman `` , you do n't use any h 's . grad a: `` basman `` ? yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named michael basman , who is my hero . grad b: ok . grad c: you 're a geek . it 's o k . i grad b: ok . grad c: how do you pronou how do you pronounce your name ? grad d: eva . grad c: eva ? grad a: not eva ? grad d: yeah . grad c: what if i were what if i were to call you eva ? grad d: i 'd probably still respond to it . i 've had people call me eva , but i do n't know . grad c: no , not just eva , eva . like if i u take the v and s pronounce it like it was a german v ? grad b: which is f . grad c: yeah . grad d: um , no idea then . grad b: voiced . grad d: what ? grad c: it sounds like an f . grad d: i grad c: there 's also an f in german , grad d: ok . grad b: well , it 's just the difference between voiced and unvoiced . grad c: which is why i yeah . grad d: ok . grad c: as long as that 's o k . grad d: um . grad c: i mean , i might slip out and say it accidentally . that 's all i 'm saying . grad d: that 's fine . grad a: yeah . it does n't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights `` zero `` for now . grad b: yep . we 'll make them zero for now , because it who who knows what they come up with , what 's gon na come in there . ok . and , um , then should we start on thursday ? grad a: ok . grad b: and not meet tomorrow ? grad a: sure . grad b: ok . i 'll send an email , make a time suggestion . grad c: wait , maybe it 's ok , so that that that we can that we have one node per construction . cuz even in people , like , they do n't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction . grad b: yeah , they would still c sort of get the closest , best fit . grad c: well , yeah , but i mean , the uh , i mean , that 's what the construction parser would do . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i mean , if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction , grad b: ok . grad c: right ? but if you said something that was completel er h theoretically the construction parser would do that but if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people would n't have any idea what you were talking about . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: like `` bus dog fried egg . `` i mean . you know . grad b: or , if even something chinese , for example . grad c: or , something in mandarin , yeah . or cantonese , as the case may be . what do you think about that , bhaskara ? grad a: i mean well but how many constructions do could we possibly have nodes for ? grad c: in this system , or in r grad a: no , we . like , when people do this kind of thing . grad c: oh , when p how many constructions do people have ? grad a: yeah . grad c: i have not { comment } the slightest idea . grad a: is it considered to be like in are they considered to be like very , uh , sort of s abstract things ? grad c: every noun is a construction . grad a: ok , so it 's like in the thousands . grad c: the yeah . any any form - meaning pair , to my understanding , is a construction . grad a: ok . grad b: so . grad c: and form u starts at the level of noun or actually , maybe even sounds . grad b: phoneme . yep . grad c: yeah . and goes upwards until you get the ditransitive construction . grad a: s grad c: and then , of course , the c i guess , maybe there can be the can there be combinations of the dit grad a: discourse - level constructions . grad c: yeah . the `` giving a speech `` construction , grad b: rhetorical constructions . grad a: yes . grad b: yeah . but , i mean , you know , you can probably count count the ways . i mean . grad c: it 's probab yeah , i would s definitely say it 's finite . grad b: yeah . grad c: and at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite . grad a: how 's that ? how it can be finite , again ? grad c: nah , i ca n't think of a way it would be infinite . grad b: well , you can come up with new constructions . grad c: yeah . { comment } if the if your if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , uh , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about . grad a: but , i mean , in the practical sense , it 's impossible . grad c: right . cuz if we have a fixed number of neurons ? grad a: yeah . grad c: so the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons . grad a: well , two to the power of the number of neurons . grad c: right . but still finite . grad b: ok . grad c: no , wait . not necessarily , is it ? we can end the meeting . i just ca n't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , uh lots of different neurons , to specify different values ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: um , yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of grad c: there 's a bandwidth issue , grad a: bandw - yeah , so you ca n't do better than something . grad c: right ? yeah . grad b: turn off the mikes . otherwise it gets really tough for the tr

the focus of the meeting was on a presentation of the work done already on the building of the bayes-net . the complete prototype of the bayes-net will be presented in the next meeting . after that , it will be possible to define interfaces and a dummy construction parser , in order to test and link modules together .

what was the structure of the bayes-net discussed . </s> grad b: so i guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , johno . this is what , uh , grad c: this is a meeting for me . grad b: um , eva , bhaskara , and i did . grad d: did you add more stuff to it ? later ? grad b: um . why ? grad d: um . i do n't know . there were , like , the you know , @ @ and all that stuff . but . i thought you you said you were adding stuff grad b: uh , no . grad d: but i do n't know . grad b: this is um , ha ! very nice . um , so we thought that , we can write up uh , an element , and for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the bayes - net ? so . what 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? is it under construction ? or is it on fire or something happening to it ? or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through parking , location , hotel , car , restroom , @ @ { comment } riots , fairs , strikes , or disasters . grad c: so is this is a situation are is all the things which can be happening right now ? or , what is the situation type ? grad b: that 's basically just specifying the the input for the w what 's grad c: oh , i see y why are you specifying it in xml ? grad b: um . just because it forces us to be specific about the values here ? grad c: ok . grad b: and , also , i mean , this is a what the input is going to be . right ? so , we will , uh this is a schema . this is grad c: well , yeah . i just do n't know if this is th l what the does this is what java bayes takes ? as a bayes - net spec ? grad b: no , because i mean if we i mean we 're sure gon na interface to we 're gon na get an xml document from somewhere . right ? and that xml document will say `` we are able to we were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ { comment } of the location that the car is near . `` so that 's gon na be { comment } um . grad c: so this is the situational context , everything in it . is that what situation is short for , shi situational context ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: so this is just , again , a an xml schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible xml structures , which we view as input into the bayes - net . right ? grad c: and then we can r uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? that put it into the format that the bayes n or java bayes or whatever wants ? grad b: yea - are you talking are you talking about the the structure ? grad c: well it grad b: i mean when you observe a node . grad c: when you when you say the input to the v java bayes , { comment } it takes a certain format , grad b: um - hmm . grad c: right ? which i do n't think is this . although i do n't know . grad b: no , it 's certainly not this . nuh . grad c: so you could just could n't you just run a grad b: xsl . { comment } yeah . grad c: yeah . to convert it into the java bayes for format ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: that 's that 's no problem , but i even think that , um i mean , once once you have this sort of as running as a module right ? what you want is you wan na say , `` ok , give me the posterior probabilities of the go - there node , when this is happening . `` right ? when the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . and with this you can specify the what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . so we get after we are done , through the situation we get the user vector . so , this is a grad c: so this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ? grad b: yep . and , all the possible outputs , too . so , we have , um , for example , the , uh , go - there decision node grad c: ok . grad b: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gon na be all the decision nodes and all the the a all the posterior probabilities for all the values . grad c: and then we would just look at the , eh , struct that we wan na look at in terms of if if we 're only asking about one of the so like , if i 'm just interested in the going - there node , i would just pull that information out of the struct that gets return that would that java bayes would output ? grad b: um , pretty much , yes , but i think it 's a little bit more complex . as , if i understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . so , when we input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . right ? grad c: ok . grad b: so there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the eva values . grad c: yeah , wait i agree , that 's yeah , use oh , uh yeah , ok . grad b: so so we get this whole list of of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . so y you said if you `` i 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not `` , then i just look at that node , look which one grad c: look at that struct in the output , grad b: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: look at that struct in the the output , even though i would n't call it a `` struct `` . but . grad c: well i well , it 's an xml structure that 's being res returned , grad b: oh . mm - hmm . grad c: right ? grad b: so every part of a structure is a `` struct `` . yeah . grad c: yeah , i just uh i just was abbreviated it to struct in my head , and started going with that . grad b: that element or object , i would say . grad c: not a c struct . that 's not what i was trying to k grad b: yeah . grad c: though yeah . grad b: ok . and , um , the reason is why i think it 's a little bit more complex or why why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is um . so . the , uh let 's look at an example . grad c: well , w would n't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ? grad b: yeah . w we 'd need to prune . right ? throw things away . grad c: well , actually , you do n't even need to do that with xml . grad b: no grad c: d ca n't you just look at one specific grad b: yeah , exactly . the @ @ { comment } xerxes allows you to say , u `` just give me the value of that , and that , and that . `` but , we do n't really know what we 're interested in before we look at the complete at at the overall result . so the person said , um , `` where is x ? `` and so , we want to know , um , is does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? or does he want to go there ? let 's assume this is our our question . grad c: sure . grad b: nuh ? so . um . do this in perl . so we get ok . let 's assume this is the output . so . we should con be able to conclude from that that i mean . it 's always gon na give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and does n't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . but , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . so , does he wan na know where it is ? or does he wan na go there ? grad c: he wants to know where it is . grad b: right . i i i tend to agree . and if it 's if grad c: well now , y i mean , you could grad b: and i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um and this is pretty , uh indifferent , then we then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does want to go there . grad c: uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we would n't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be the question for we have `` where is x ? `` is the question , right ? that would just be info - on or location ? based upon grad b: or go - there . a lot of people ask that , if they actually just wan na go there . people come up to you on campus and say , `` where 's the library ? `` you 're gon na say y you 're gon na say , g `` go down that way . `` you 're not gon na say `` it 's it 's five hundred yards away from you `` or `` it 's north of you `` , or `` it 's located `` grad c: well , i mean but the there 's so you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together . grad b: um . i do n't know whether i understand what you mean . but . again , in this given this input , we , also in some situations , may wan na postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . so , it n i mean a all i 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gon na get the full output . and some some things will always be sort of too not significant enough . grad c: wha or i or i it 'll be tight . you wo n't it 'll be hard to decide . grad b: yep . grad c: but i mean , i guess i guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . so if you had if for every construction , grad b: oh ! grad c: right ? you could say , `` well , there here 's the where - is construction . `` and for the where - is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: as for th to decide the response . and since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes . grad b: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it would n't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff grad b: so , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net . grad c: yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net . grad b: but , why why why only those three ? why not the whol grad c: well , i mean , d for the where - is question . so we 'd have a node for the where - is question . grad b: yeah . but we believe that all the decision nodes are can be relevant for the where - is , and the where how - do - i - get - to or the tell - me - something - about . grad c: you can come in if you want . grad b: yes , it is allowed . grad c: as long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . well , i do i see , i do n't know if this is a good idea or not . i 'm just throwing it out . but uh , it seems like we could have i mea or uh we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant into the where - is node answer grad b: mm - hmm . yep . grad c: node thing stuff . and uh grad d: ok . grad b: i mean let 's not forget we 're gon na get some very strong input from these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? so . `` tell me the location of x . `` nuh ? or `` where is x located at ? `` grad c: we u grad b: nuh ? grad c: yeah , i know , but the bayes - net would be able to the weights on the on the nodes in the bayes - net would be able to do all that , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: would n't it ? here 's a k oh ! oh , i 'll wait until you 're plugged in . oh , do n't sit there . sit here . you know how you do n't like that one . it 's ok . that 's the weird one . that 's the one that 's painful . that hurts . it hurts so bad . i 'm h i 'm happy that they 're recording that . that headphone . the headphone that you have to put on backwards , with the little little thing and the little little foam block on it ? it 's a painful , painful microphone . grad b: i think it 's th called `` the crown `` . grad c: the crown ? grad d: what ? grad b: yeah , versus `` the sony `` . grad a: the crown ? is that the actual name ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . the manufacturer . grad c: i do n't see a manufacturer on it . grad b: you w grad c: oh , wait , here it is . h this thingy . yeah , it 's `` the crown `` . the crown of pain ! grad a: yes . grad b: you 're on - line ? grad c: are you are your mike o is your mike on ? grad a: indeed . grad c: ok . so you 've been working with these guys ? you know what 's going on ? grad a: yes , i have . and , i do . yeah , alright . s so where are we ? grad c: excellent ! grad b: we 're discussing this . grad a: i do n't think it can handle french , but anyway . grad b: so . assume we have something coming in . a person says , `` where is x ? `` , and we get a certain we have a situation vector and a user vector and everything is fine ? an - an and and our and our grad c: did you just sti did you just stick the m the the the microphone actually in the tea ? grad a: no . grad b: and , um , grad a: i 'm not drinking tea . what are you talking about ? grad c: oh , yeah . sorry . grad b: let 's just assume our bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . these three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there . grad c: in terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question where - is , right ? we u this is i that 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier grad b: yeah , but , mmm . grad c: w we we 're we wan na know how to answer the question `` where is x ? `` grad b: yeah . no , i can i can do the timing node in here , too , and say `` ok . `` grad c: well , yeah , but in the s uh , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . we just want to know how we should answer `` where is x ? `` grad b: ok . and , um , ok , and , go - there has two values , right ? , go - there and not - go - there . let 's assume those are the posterior probabilities of that . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: info - on has true or false and location . so , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something he wants to know where - it - is , grad a: excuse me . grad b: has these values . and , um , grad c: oh , i see why we ca n't do that . grad b: and , um , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . our belief - net thinks he wants to go there , grad a: yeah . grad b: right ? grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: in the , uh , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some grad a: you should probably { comment } make them out of yeah . grad b: something like that , grad c: well , it grad b: then we would guess , `` aha ! he , our belief - net , { comment } has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go there . `` right ? grad c: that it does n't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ? grad d: true . grad c: like i guess they are evenly weighted . grad a: the different decision nodes , you mean ? grad c: yeah , the go - there , the info - on , and the location ? grad a: well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . yes . grad c: like grad b: what do you mean by `` differently weighted `` ? they do n't feed into anything really anymore . grad a: but i mean , why do we grad c: or i jus grad a: if we trusted the go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there . grad c: le grad a: so , in that sense , we weight them equally right now . grad b: ok . makes sense . yeah . but grad c: so the but i guess the k the question that i was as er wondering or maybe robert was proposing to me is how do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? grad a: yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . so again , it 's it 's some kind of , uh grad c: bayes - net . grad a: yeah , sure . grad c: ok so , then , the question i so then my question is t to you then , would be so is the only r reason we can make all these smaller bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? cuz oth if we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we could n't have a node for every possible question , you know ? grad a: a decision node for every possible question , you mean ? grad c: well , i like , in the case of yeah . in the ca any piece of language , we would n't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h cuz we would n't have the correct node . basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n where - is node , right ? grad a: yeah . grad c: and and if we and if someone says , you know , uh , something in mandarin to the system , we 'd - would n't know which node to look at to answer that question , grad a: so is yeah . yeah . grad c: right ? grad b: mmm ? grad c: so , but but if we have a finite what ? grad b: i do n't see your point . what what what i am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gon na get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . and now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , `` the winner is timing . now , go there . `` `` uh , go there , timing , now . `` or , `` the winner is info - on , function - off . `` so , he wants to know something about it , and what it does . nuh ? uh , regardless of of of the input . wh - regardle grad c: yeah , but but how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner , if it does n't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ? grad b: based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions . grad c: yeah i know . but how do we weight what we get out ? as , which one i which ones are important ? so my i so , if we were to it with a bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: does that make sense ? yay , nay ? grad a: um , i mean , are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? grad c: we grad a: is that your point ? grad c: well , no . i i guess my question is , is the reason that we can make a node f or ok . so , lem me see if i 'm confused . are we going to make a node for every question ? does that make sense ? grad a: for every question ? grad c: or not . grad a: like grad c: every construction . grad a: hmm . i do n't not necessarily , i would think . i mean , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , uh , there 's gon na be a node for go - there or not , and there 's gon na be a node for enter , view , approach . grad c: wel w ok . so , someone asked a question . grad a: yeah . grad c: how do we decide how to answer it ? grad b: well , look at look face yourself with this pr question . you get this you 'll have y this is what you get . and now you have to make a decision . what do we think ? what does this tell us ? and not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . what what we need is a just a mechanism that says , `` aha ! there is `` grad c: yeah . i just do n't think a `` winner - take - all `` type of thing is the grad a: i mean , in general , like , we wo n't just have those three , right ? we 'll have , uh , like , many , many nodes . so we have to , like so that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say . grad b: yep . because there are interdependencies , right ? the uh uh , no . so if if for example , the go - there posterior possibility is so high , um , uh , w if it 's if it has reached reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . so . if even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value grad c: wel i do n't know about that , cuz that would suggest that i mean grad b: he wants to go there and know something about it ? grad c: do they have to be mutual yeah . do they have to be mutually exclusive ? grad b: i think to some extent they are . or maybe they 're not . grad c: cuz i , uh the way you describe what they meant , they were n't mutu uh , they did n't seem mutually exclusive to me . grad b: well , if he does n't want to go there , even if the enter posterior proba so . grad c: wel grad b: go - there is no . enter is high , and info - on is high . grad c: well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the grad b: hmm ? grad c: those three nodes . the - d they did n't seem like they were mutually exclusive . grad b: no , there 's no . but it 's through the grad c: so th s so , yeah , but some so , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but i guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a bayes - net to deal w another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , uh , is the only reason ok , so , i guess , if we have a ba - another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? grad a: yeah . i think that 's true . grad c: and then , so , the only reason way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon oh , so if let 's say i had a construction parser , and i plug this in , i would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: and so then i would know how to weight the nodes appropriately , in response . so no matter what they said , if i could map it onto a where - is construction , i could say , `` ah ! grad a: ge mm - hmm . grad c: well the the intent , here , was where - is `` , grad a: ok , right . grad c: and i could look at those . grad a: yeah . yes , i mean . sure . you do need to know i mean , to have that kind of information . grad b: hmm . yeah , i 'm also agreeing that a simple pru { comment } take the ones where we have a clear winner . forget about the ones where it 's all sort of middle ground . prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner . yeah , because that would be the easiest way . we just compose as an output an xml mes message that says . `` go there now . `` `` enter historical information . `` and not care whether that 's consistent with anything . right ? but in this case if we say , `` definitely he does n't want to go there . he just wants to know where it is . `` or let 's call this this `` look - at - h `` he wants to know something about the history of . so he said , `` tell me something about the history of that . `` now , the e but for some reason the endpoint - approach gets a really high score , too . we ca n't expect this to be sort of at o point { comment } three , three , three , o point , three , three , three , o point , three , three , three . right ? somebody needs to zap that . you know ? or know there needs to be some knowledge that grad c: we yeah , but , the bayes - net that would merge i just realized that i had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . so then , the bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between go - there , info - on , and location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff . grad b: yep . yep . grad c: i mean , it i does that make sense ? grad b: yep . it 's sort of one of those , that 's it 's more like a decision tree , if if you want . you first look o at the lowball ones , grad c: yeah , i grad b: and then grad c: yeah , i did n't intend to say that every possible ok . there was a confusion there , k i did n't intend to say every possible thing should go into the bayes - net , because some of the things are n't relevant in the bayes - net for a specific question . like the endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the bayes - net for where - is until after you 've decided whether you wan na go there or not . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: right . grad c: show us the way , bhaskara . grad a: i guess the other thing is that um , yeah . i mean , when you 're asked a specific question and you do n't even like , if you 're asked a where - is question , you may not even look like , ask for the posterior probability of the , uh , eva node , right ? cuz , that 's what i mean , in the bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . so , i mean , you may not even bother to compute things you do n't need . grad b: um . are n't we always computing all ? grad a: no . you can compute , uh , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . basically , things you ignore get marginalized over . grad b: yeah , but that 's that 's just shifting the problem . then you would have to make a decision , grad a: yeah . so you have to make grad b: `` ok , if it 's a where - is question , which decision nodes do i query ? `` grad a: yeah . yes . but i would think that 's what you want to do . grad b: that 's un grad a: right ? grad b: mmm . grad d: well , eventually , you still have to pick out which ones you look at . grad b: yeah . grad d: so it 's pretty much the same problem , grad b: yeah it 's it 's it 's apples and oranges . grad d: is n't it ? grad b: nuh ? i mean , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: so either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant , grad a: mmm . grad b: or you just make a p @ @ { comment } a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those . grad a: yeah . grad c: so basically , you 'd have a decision tree query , go - there . if k if that 's false , query this one . if that 's true , query that one . and just basically do a binary search through the ? grad a: i do n't know if it would necessarily be that , uh , complicated . but , uh i mean , it w grad c: well , in the case of go - there , it would be . in the case cuz if you needed an if y if go - there was true , you 'd wan na know what endpoint was . and if it was false , you 'd wan na d look at either lo - income info - on or history . grad a: yeah . that 's true , i guess . yeah , so , in a way you would have that . grad c: also , i 'm somewhat boggled by that hugin software . grad a: ok , why 's that ? grad c: i ca n't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . like , i 'd look at grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: it 's somewha it 's boggling me . grad a: ok . alright . well , hopefully it 's fixable . grad c: ju grad a: it 's there 's a grad c: oh yeah , yeah . i d i just think i have n't figured out what the terms in hugin mean , versus what java bayes terms are . grad a: ok . grad b: um , by the way , are do we know whether jerry and nancy are coming ? grad a: so we can figure this out . grad b: or ? grad a: they should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . so . grad c: what d what do they need to do left ? grad a: um , i guess , jerry needs to enter marks , but i do n't know if he 's gon na do that now or later . but , uh , if he 's gon na enter marks , it 's gon na take him awhile , i guess , and he wo n't be here . grad c: and what 's nancy doing ? grad a: nancy ? um , she was sorta finishing up the , uh , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but i do n't know if she should be here . well or , she should be free after that , so assuming she 's coming to this meeting . i do n't know if she knows about it . grad c: she 's on the email list , right ? grad a: is she ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . ok . because basically , what where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together grad d: ok . grad b: sometime this week again grad a: ok . grad b: and finish up the , uh , values of this . so we have , uh believe it or not , we have all the bottom ones here . grad c: well , i grad d: you added a bunch of nodes , for ? grad b: yep . we we we have actually what we have is this line . grad d: ok . grad b: right ? grad c: uh , what do the , uh , structures do ? grad b: hmm ? grad c: so the the the for instance , this location node 's got two inputs , grad a: four inputs . grad b: hmm . grad c: that one you grad b: four . grad a: those are the bottom things are inputs , also . grad c: oh , i see . grad a: yeah . grad c: ok , that was ok . that makes a lot more sense to me now . grad b: yep . grad c: cuz i thought it was like , that one in stuart 's book about , you know , the grad a: alarm in the dog ? grad c: u yeah . grad a: yeah . grad c: or the earthquake and the alarm . grad a: sorry . yeah , i 'm confusing two . grad c: yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in java bayes , grad a: right . grad c: is n't it ? grad a: maybe . grad c: but there 's something about bowel problems or something with the dog . grad a: yeah . grad b: and we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . what we 're missing are the these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . so , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . and maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more . and , um . and then it 's just , uh , edges , many of edges . and , um , we wo n't { comment } meet next monday . so . grad c: cuz of memorial day ? grad a: we 'll meet next tuesday , i guess . grad b: yep . yeah . grad c: when 's jerry leaving for italia ? grad b: on on friday . grad a: which friday ? grad b: this this friday . grad a: ok . grad d: oh . this friday ? grad c: ugh . grad b: this friday . grad c: as in , four days ? grad b: yep . grad c: or , three days ? grad a: is he how long is he gone for ? grad b: two weeks . grad a: italy , huh ? what 's , uh what 's there ? grad b: well , it 's a country . buildings . people . grad a: pasta . grad c: but it 's not a conference or anything . grad b: hmm ? grad c: he 's just visiting . grad a: right . just visiting . grad b: vacation . grad a: it 's a pretty nice place , in my brief , uh , encounter with it . grad b: do you guys oh , yeah . so . part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back . um , so grad c: oh , i think we should disappoint him . grad b: yeah ? you or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and uh grad c: that would n't be disappointing . i think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he 's gone . grad b: well , that 's actually what i had planned , personally . i had i i had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and i do nothing . and then , i sort of grad c: oh , yeah , that sounds good , too . grad b: sort of bask in in your glory . but , uh , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because i myself am going to be , um , gone , but this is actually not really important . just this weekend we 're going camping . grad c: yeah , i 'm wan na be this gone this weekend , too . grad b: ah . but we 're all going to be here on tuesday again ? looks like it ? grad d: yeah . grad b: ok , then . let 's meet meet again next tuesday . and , um , finish up this bayes - net . and once we have finished it , i guess we can , um and that 's going to be more just you and me , because bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , uh , grad c: killing machines ! grad b: reasoning machines . grad a: yes . grad b: and , um grad c: killing , reasoning . what 's the difference ? grad d: wait . so you 're saying , next tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or or ? grad b: uh . the whole group . and we present our results , our final , grad d: ok . grad b: definite grad d: so , when you were saying we need to do a re - run of , like grad a: h what ? grad d: what like , just working out the rest of the grad b: yeah . we should do this th the upcoming days . grad d: this week ? grad b: so , this week , yeah . grad c: when you say , `` the whole group `` , you mean the four of us , and keith ? grad d: ok . grad b: and , ami might . grad c: ami might be here , and it 's possible that nancy 'll be here ? grad b: yep . grad c: so , yeah . grad b: because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done grad c: you 're just gon na have to explain it to me , then , on tuesday , how it 's all gon na work out . you know . grad b: we will . ok . because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and grad c: that you will have in about nine months or so . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: and , um , grad c: the first bad version 'll be done in nine months . grad b: yeah , i can worry about the ontology interface and you can keith can worry about the discourse . i mean , this is pretty um , i mean , i i i hope everybody uh knows that these are just going to be uh dummy values , right ? grad a: which grad b: where the grad a: which ones ? grad b: s so so if the endpoint if the go - there is yes and no , then go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . right ? grad a: um , what do you mean ? if the go - there says no , then the go - there is grad d: i do n't get it . grad a: i do n't u understand . grad b: um . grad a: like , the go - there depends on all those four things . grad b: yep . grad a: yeah . grad b: but , what are the values of the go - there - discourse ? grad a: well , it depends on the situation . if the discourse is strongly indicating that grad b: yeah , but , uh , we have no discourse input . grad a: oh , i see . the d see , uh , specifically in our situation , d and o are gon na be , uh yeah . sure . so , whatever . grad d: so , so far we have is that what the keith node is ? grad b: yep . grad d: ok . and you 're taking it out ? for now ? grad b: well , this is d grad d: or ? grad b: ok , this , i can i can get it in here . grad d: all the d 's are grad b: i can get it in here , so th we have the , uh , um , sk let 's let 's call it `` keith - johno grad a: johno ? grad b: node `` . there is an h { comment } somewhere printed . grad c: there you go . grad a: yeah . people have the same problem with my name . grad b: yeah . grad a: oops . grad b: and , um , grad c: does th th does the h go b before the a or after the a ? grad a: oh , in my name ? before the a . grad c: yeah . ok , good . cuz you kn when you said people have the same problem , i thought cuz my h goes after the uh e e e the v grad a: people have the inverse problem with my name . grad c: ok . i always have to check , every time y i send you an email , { comment } a past email of yours , { comment } to make sure i 'm spelling your name correctly . grad a: yeah . that 's good . grad c: i worry about you . grad a: i appreciate that . grad b: but , when you abbreviate yourself as the `` basman `` , you do n't use any h 's . grad a: `` basman `` ? yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named michael basman , who is my hero . grad b: ok . grad c: you 're a geek . it 's o k . i grad b: ok . grad c: how do you pronou how do you pronounce your name ? grad d: eva . grad c: eva ? grad a: not eva ? grad d: yeah . grad c: what if i were what if i were to call you eva ? grad d: i 'd probably still respond to it . i 've had people call me eva , but i do n't know . grad c: no , not just eva , eva . like if i u take the v and s pronounce it like it was a german v ? grad b: which is f . grad c: yeah . grad d: um , no idea then . grad b: voiced . grad d: what ? grad c: it sounds like an f . grad d: i grad c: there 's also an f in german , grad d: ok . grad b: well , it 's just the difference between voiced and unvoiced . grad c: which is why i yeah . grad d: ok . grad c: as long as that 's o k . grad d: um . grad c: i mean , i might slip out and say it accidentally . that 's all i 'm saying . grad d: that 's fine . grad a: yeah . it does n't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights `` zero `` for now . grad b: yep . we 'll make them zero for now , because it who who knows what they come up with , what 's gon na come in there . ok . and , um , then should we start on thursday ? grad a: ok . grad b: and not meet tomorrow ? grad a: sure . grad b: ok . i 'll send an email , make a time suggestion . grad c: wait , maybe it 's ok , so that that that we can that we have one node per construction . cuz even in people , like , they do n't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction . grad b: yeah , they would still c sort of get the closest , best fit . grad c: well , yeah , but i mean , the uh , i mean , that 's what the construction parser would do . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i mean , if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction , grad b: ok . grad c: right ? but if you said something that was completel er h theoretically the construction parser would do that but if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people would n't have any idea what you were talking about . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: like `` bus dog fried egg . `` i mean . you know . grad b: or , if even something chinese , for example . grad c: or , something in mandarin , yeah . or cantonese , as the case may be . what do you think about that , bhaskara ? grad a: i mean well but how many constructions do could we possibly have nodes for ? grad c: in this system , or in r grad a: no , we . like , when people do this kind of thing . grad c: oh , when p how many constructions do people have ? grad a: yeah . grad c: i have not { comment } the slightest idea . grad a: is it considered to be like in are they considered to be like very , uh , sort of s abstract things ? grad c: every noun is a construction . grad a: ok , so it 's like in the thousands . grad c: the yeah . any any form - meaning pair , to my understanding , is a construction . grad a: ok . grad b: so . grad c: and form u starts at the level of noun or actually , maybe even sounds . grad b: phoneme . yep . grad c: yeah . and goes upwards until you get the ditransitive construction . grad a: s grad c: and then , of course , the c i guess , maybe there can be the can there be combinations of the dit grad a: discourse - level constructions . grad c: yeah . the `` giving a speech `` construction , grad b: rhetorical constructions . grad a: yes . grad b: yeah . but , i mean , you know , you can probably count count the ways . i mean . grad c: it 's probab yeah , i would s definitely say it 's finite . grad b: yeah . grad c: and at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite . grad a: how 's that ? how it can be finite , again ? grad c: nah , i ca n't think of a way it would be infinite . grad b: well , you can come up with new constructions . grad c: yeah . { comment } if the if your if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , uh , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about . grad a: but , i mean , in the practical sense , it 's impossible . grad c: right . cuz if we have a fixed number of neurons ? grad a: yeah . grad c: so the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons . grad a: well , two to the power of the number of neurons . grad c: right . but still finite . grad b: ok . grad c: no , wait . not necessarily , is it ? we can end the meeting . i just ca n't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , uh lots of different neurons , to specify different values ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: um , yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of grad c: there 's a bandwidth issue , grad a: bandw - yeah , so you ca n't do better than something . grad c: right ? yeah . grad b: turn off the mikes . otherwise it gets really tough for the tr

the input layer deriving information from things like the user and situation models , feeds into a set of decision nodes , such as the enter/view/approach ( eva ) endpoint . in any particular situation , most of the outputs will not be relevant to the given context . therefore , they will either have to be pruned a posteriori , or only a subset of the possible decision nodes will be computed in each occasion .

what was discussed about contextualizing output ? </s> grad b: so i guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , johno . this is what , uh , grad c: this is a meeting for me . grad b: um , eva , bhaskara , and i did . grad d: did you add more stuff to it ? later ? grad b: um . why ? grad d: um . i do n't know . there were , like , the you know , @ @ and all that stuff . but . i thought you you said you were adding stuff grad b: uh , no . grad d: but i do n't know . grad b: this is um , ha ! very nice . um , so we thought that , we can write up uh , an element , and for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the bayes - net ? so . what 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? is it under construction ? or is it on fire or something happening to it ? or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through parking , location , hotel , car , restroom , @ @ { comment } riots , fairs , strikes , or disasters . grad c: so is this is a situation are is all the things which can be happening right now ? or , what is the situation type ? grad b: that 's basically just specifying the the input for the w what 's grad c: oh , i see y why are you specifying it in xml ? grad b: um . just because it forces us to be specific about the values here ? grad c: ok . grad b: and , also , i mean , this is a what the input is going to be . right ? so , we will , uh this is a schema . this is grad c: well , yeah . i just do n't know if this is th l what the does this is what java bayes takes ? as a bayes - net spec ? grad b: no , because i mean if we i mean we 're sure gon na interface to we 're gon na get an xml document from somewhere . right ? and that xml document will say `` we are able to we were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ { comment } of the location that the car is near . `` so that 's gon na be { comment } um . grad c: so this is the situational context , everything in it . is that what situation is short for , shi situational context ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: so this is just , again , a an xml schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible xml structures , which we view as input into the bayes - net . right ? grad c: and then we can r uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? that put it into the format that the bayes n or java bayes or whatever wants ? grad b: yea - are you talking are you talking about the the structure ? grad c: well it grad b: i mean when you observe a node . grad c: when you when you say the input to the v java bayes , { comment } it takes a certain format , grad b: um - hmm . grad c: right ? which i do n't think is this . although i do n't know . grad b: no , it 's certainly not this . nuh . grad c: so you could just could n't you just run a grad b: xsl . { comment } yeah . grad c: yeah . to convert it into the java bayes for format ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: that 's that 's no problem , but i even think that , um i mean , once once you have this sort of as running as a module right ? what you want is you wan na say , `` ok , give me the posterior probabilities of the go - there node , when this is happening . `` right ? when the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . and with this you can specify the what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . so we get after we are done , through the situation we get the user vector . so , this is a grad c: so this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ? grad b: yep . and , all the possible outputs , too . so , we have , um , for example , the , uh , go - there decision node grad c: ok . grad b: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gon na be all the decision nodes and all the the a all the posterior probabilities for all the values . grad c: and then we would just look at the , eh , struct that we wan na look at in terms of if if we 're only asking about one of the so like , if i 'm just interested in the going - there node , i would just pull that information out of the struct that gets return that would that java bayes would output ? grad b: um , pretty much , yes , but i think it 's a little bit more complex . as , if i understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . so , when we input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . right ? grad c: ok . grad b: so there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the eva values . grad c: yeah , wait i agree , that 's yeah , use oh , uh yeah , ok . grad b: so so we get this whole list of of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . so y you said if you `` i 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not `` , then i just look at that node , look which one grad c: look at that struct in the output , grad b: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: look at that struct in the the output , even though i would n't call it a `` struct `` . but . grad c: well i well , it 's an xml structure that 's being res returned , grad b: oh . mm - hmm . grad c: right ? grad b: so every part of a structure is a `` struct `` . yeah . grad c: yeah , i just uh i just was abbreviated it to struct in my head , and started going with that . grad b: that element or object , i would say . grad c: not a c struct . that 's not what i was trying to k grad b: yeah . grad c: though yeah . grad b: ok . and , um , the reason is why i think it 's a little bit more complex or why why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is um . so . the , uh let 's look at an example . grad c: well , w would n't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ? grad b: yeah . w we 'd need to prune . right ? throw things away . grad c: well , actually , you do n't even need to do that with xml . grad b: no grad c: d ca n't you just look at one specific grad b: yeah , exactly . the @ @ { comment } xerxes allows you to say , u `` just give me the value of that , and that , and that . `` but , we do n't really know what we 're interested in before we look at the complete at at the overall result . so the person said , um , `` where is x ? `` and so , we want to know , um , is does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? or does he want to go there ? let 's assume this is our our question . grad c: sure . grad b: nuh ? so . um . do this in perl . so we get ok . let 's assume this is the output . so . we should con be able to conclude from that that i mean . it 's always gon na give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and does n't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . but , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . so , does he wan na know where it is ? or does he wan na go there ? grad c: he wants to know where it is . grad b: right . i i i tend to agree . and if it 's if grad c: well now , y i mean , you could grad b: and i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um and this is pretty , uh indifferent , then we then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does want to go there . grad c: uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we would n't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be the question for we have `` where is x ? `` is the question , right ? that would just be info - on or location ? based upon grad b: or go - there . a lot of people ask that , if they actually just wan na go there . people come up to you on campus and say , `` where 's the library ? `` you 're gon na say y you 're gon na say , g `` go down that way . `` you 're not gon na say `` it 's it 's five hundred yards away from you `` or `` it 's north of you `` , or `` it 's located `` grad c: well , i mean but the there 's so you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together . grad b: um . i do n't know whether i understand what you mean . but . again , in this given this input , we , also in some situations , may wan na postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . so , it n i mean a all i 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gon na get the full output . and some some things will always be sort of too not significant enough . grad c: wha or i or i it 'll be tight . you wo n't it 'll be hard to decide . grad b: yep . grad c: but i mean , i guess i guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . so if you had if for every construction , grad b: oh ! grad c: right ? you could say , `` well , there here 's the where - is construction . `` and for the where - is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: as for th to decide the response . and since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes . grad b: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it would n't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff grad b: so , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net . grad c: yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net . grad b: but , why why why only those three ? why not the whol grad c: well , i mean , d for the where - is question . so we 'd have a node for the where - is question . grad b: yeah . but we believe that all the decision nodes are can be relevant for the where - is , and the where how - do - i - get - to or the tell - me - something - about . grad c: you can come in if you want . grad b: yes , it is allowed . grad c: as long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . well , i do i see , i do n't know if this is a good idea or not . i 'm just throwing it out . but uh , it seems like we could have i mea or uh we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant into the where - is node answer grad b: mm - hmm . yep . grad c: node thing stuff . and uh grad d: ok . grad b: i mean let 's not forget we 're gon na get some very strong input from these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? so . `` tell me the location of x . `` nuh ? or `` where is x located at ? `` grad c: we u grad b: nuh ? grad c: yeah , i know , but the bayes - net would be able to the weights on the on the nodes in the bayes - net would be able to do all that , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: would n't it ? here 's a k oh ! oh , i 'll wait until you 're plugged in . oh , do n't sit there . sit here . you know how you do n't like that one . it 's ok . that 's the weird one . that 's the one that 's painful . that hurts . it hurts so bad . i 'm h i 'm happy that they 're recording that . that headphone . the headphone that you have to put on backwards , with the little little thing and the little little foam block on it ? it 's a painful , painful microphone . grad b: i think it 's th called `` the crown `` . grad c: the crown ? grad d: what ? grad b: yeah , versus `` the sony `` . grad a: the crown ? is that the actual name ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . the manufacturer . grad c: i do n't see a manufacturer on it . grad b: you w grad c: oh , wait , here it is . h this thingy . yeah , it 's `` the crown `` . the crown of pain ! grad a: yes . grad b: you 're on - line ? grad c: are you are your mike o is your mike on ? grad a: indeed . grad c: ok . so you 've been working with these guys ? you know what 's going on ? grad a: yes , i have . and , i do . yeah , alright . s so where are we ? grad c: excellent ! grad b: we 're discussing this . grad a: i do n't think it can handle french , but anyway . grad b: so . assume we have something coming in . a person says , `` where is x ? `` , and we get a certain we have a situation vector and a user vector and everything is fine ? an - an and and our and our grad c: did you just sti did you just stick the m the the the microphone actually in the tea ? grad a: no . grad b: and , um , grad a: i 'm not drinking tea . what are you talking about ? grad c: oh , yeah . sorry . grad b: let 's just assume our bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . these three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there . grad c: in terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question where - is , right ? we u this is i that 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier grad b: yeah , but , mmm . grad c: w we we 're we wan na know how to answer the question `` where is x ? `` grad b: yeah . no , i can i can do the timing node in here , too , and say `` ok . `` grad c: well , yeah , but in the s uh , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . we just want to know how we should answer `` where is x ? `` grad b: ok . and , um , ok , and , go - there has two values , right ? , go - there and not - go - there . let 's assume those are the posterior probabilities of that . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: info - on has true or false and location . so , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something he wants to know where - it - is , grad a: excuse me . grad b: has these values . and , um , grad c: oh , i see why we ca n't do that . grad b: and , um , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . our belief - net thinks he wants to go there , grad a: yeah . grad b: right ? grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: in the , uh , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some grad a: you should probably { comment } make them out of yeah . grad b: something like that , grad c: well , it grad b: then we would guess , `` aha ! he , our belief - net , { comment } has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go there . `` right ? grad c: that it does n't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ? grad d: true . grad c: like i guess they are evenly weighted . grad a: the different decision nodes , you mean ? grad c: yeah , the go - there , the info - on , and the location ? grad a: well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . yes . grad c: like grad b: what do you mean by `` differently weighted `` ? they do n't feed into anything really anymore . grad a: but i mean , why do we grad c: or i jus grad a: if we trusted the go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there . grad c: le grad a: so , in that sense , we weight them equally right now . grad b: ok . makes sense . yeah . but grad c: so the but i guess the k the question that i was as er wondering or maybe robert was proposing to me is how do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? grad a: yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . so again , it 's it 's some kind of , uh grad c: bayes - net . grad a: yeah , sure . grad c: ok so , then , the question i so then my question is t to you then , would be so is the only r reason we can make all these smaller bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? cuz oth if we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we could n't have a node for every possible question , you know ? grad a: a decision node for every possible question , you mean ? grad c: well , i like , in the case of yeah . in the ca any piece of language , we would n't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h cuz we would n't have the correct node . basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n where - is node , right ? grad a: yeah . grad c: and and if we and if someone says , you know , uh , something in mandarin to the system , we 'd - would n't know which node to look at to answer that question , grad a: so is yeah . yeah . grad c: right ? grad b: mmm ? grad c: so , but but if we have a finite what ? grad b: i do n't see your point . what what what i am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gon na get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . and now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , `` the winner is timing . now , go there . `` `` uh , go there , timing , now . `` or , `` the winner is info - on , function - off . `` so , he wants to know something about it , and what it does . nuh ? uh , regardless of of of the input . wh - regardle grad c: yeah , but but how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner , if it does n't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ? grad b: based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions . grad c: yeah i know . but how do we weight what we get out ? as , which one i which ones are important ? so my i so , if we were to it with a bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: does that make sense ? yay , nay ? grad a: um , i mean , are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? grad c: we grad a: is that your point ? grad c: well , no . i i guess my question is , is the reason that we can make a node f or ok . so , lem me see if i 'm confused . are we going to make a node for every question ? does that make sense ? grad a: for every question ? grad c: or not . grad a: like grad c: every construction . grad a: hmm . i do n't not necessarily , i would think . i mean , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , uh , there 's gon na be a node for go - there or not , and there 's gon na be a node for enter , view , approach . grad c: wel w ok . so , someone asked a question . grad a: yeah . grad c: how do we decide how to answer it ? grad b: well , look at look face yourself with this pr question . you get this you 'll have y this is what you get . and now you have to make a decision . what do we think ? what does this tell us ? and not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . what what we need is a just a mechanism that says , `` aha ! there is `` grad c: yeah . i just do n't think a `` winner - take - all `` type of thing is the grad a: i mean , in general , like , we wo n't just have those three , right ? we 'll have , uh , like , many , many nodes . so we have to , like so that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say . grad b: yep . because there are interdependencies , right ? the uh uh , no . so if if for example , the go - there posterior possibility is so high , um , uh , w if it 's if it has reached reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . so . if even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value grad c: wel i do n't know about that , cuz that would suggest that i mean grad b: he wants to go there and know something about it ? grad c: do they have to be mutual yeah . do they have to be mutually exclusive ? grad b: i think to some extent they are . or maybe they 're not . grad c: cuz i , uh the way you describe what they meant , they were n't mutu uh , they did n't seem mutually exclusive to me . grad b: well , if he does n't want to go there , even if the enter posterior proba so . grad c: wel grad b: go - there is no . enter is high , and info - on is high . grad c: well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the grad b: hmm ? grad c: those three nodes . the - d they did n't seem like they were mutually exclusive . grad b: no , there 's no . but it 's through the grad c: so th s so , yeah , but some so , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but i guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a bayes - net to deal w another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , uh , is the only reason ok , so , i guess , if we have a ba - another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? grad a: yeah . i think that 's true . grad c: and then , so , the only reason way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon oh , so if let 's say i had a construction parser , and i plug this in , i would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: and so then i would know how to weight the nodes appropriately , in response . so no matter what they said , if i could map it onto a where - is construction , i could say , `` ah ! grad a: ge mm - hmm . grad c: well the the intent , here , was where - is `` , grad a: ok , right . grad c: and i could look at those . grad a: yeah . yes , i mean . sure . you do need to know i mean , to have that kind of information . grad b: hmm . yeah , i 'm also agreeing that a simple pru { comment } take the ones where we have a clear winner . forget about the ones where it 's all sort of middle ground . prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner . yeah , because that would be the easiest way . we just compose as an output an xml mes message that says . `` go there now . `` `` enter historical information . `` and not care whether that 's consistent with anything . right ? but in this case if we say , `` definitely he does n't want to go there . he just wants to know where it is . `` or let 's call this this `` look - at - h `` he wants to know something about the history of . so he said , `` tell me something about the history of that . `` now , the e but for some reason the endpoint - approach gets a really high score , too . we ca n't expect this to be sort of at o point { comment } three , three , three , o point , three , three , three , o point , three , three , three . right ? somebody needs to zap that . you know ? or know there needs to be some knowledge that grad c: we yeah , but , the bayes - net that would merge i just realized that i had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . so then , the bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between go - there , info - on , and location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff . grad b: yep . yep . grad c: i mean , it i does that make sense ? grad b: yep . it 's sort of one of those , that 's it 's more like a decision tree , if if you want . you first look o at the lowball ones , grad c: yeah , i grad b: and then grad c: yeah , i did n't intend to say that every possible ok . there was a confusion there , k i did n't intend to say every possible thing should go into the bayes - net , because some of the things are n't relevant in the bayes - net for a specific question . like the endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the bayes - net for where - is until after you 've decided whether you wan na go there or not . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: right . grad c: show us the way , bhaskara . grad a: i guess the other thing is that um , yeah . i mean , when you 're asked a specific question and you do n't even like , if you 're asked a where - is question , you may not even look like , ask for the posterior probability of the , uh , eva node , right ? cuz , that 's what i mean , in the bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . so , i mean , you may not even bother to compute things you do n't need . grad b: um . are n't we always computing all ? grad a: no . you can compute , uh , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . basically , things you ignore get marginalized over . grad b: yeah , but that 's that 's just shifting the problem . then you would have to make a decision , grad a: yeah . so you have to make grad b: `` ok , if it 's a where - is question , which decision nodes do i query ? `` grad a: yeah . yes . but i would think that 's what you want to do . grad b: that 's un grad a: right ? grad b: mmm . grad d: well , eventually , you still have to pick out which ones you look at . grad b: yeah . grad d: so it 's pretty much the same problem , grad b: yeah it 's it 's it 's apples and oranges . grad d: is n't it ? grad b: nuh ? i mean , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: so either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant , grad a: mmm . grad b: or you just make a p @ @ { comment } a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those . grad a: yeah . grad c: so basically , you 'd have a decision tree query , go - there . if k if that 's false , query this one . if that 's true , query that one . and just basically do a binary search through the ? grad a: i do n't know if it would necessarily be that , uh , complicated . but , uh i mean , it w grad c: well , in the case of go - there , it would be . in the case cuz if you needed an if y if go - there was true , you 'd wan na know what endpoint was . and if it was false , you 'd wan na d look at either lo - income info - on or history . grad a: yeah . that 's true , i guess . yeah , so , in a way you would have that . grad c: also , i 'm somewhat boggled by that hugin software . grad a: ok , why 's that ? grad c: i ca n't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . like , i 'd look at grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: it 's somewha it 's boggling me . grad a: ok . alright . well , hopefully it 's fixable . grad c: ju grad a: it 's there 's a grad c: oh yeah , yeah . i d i just think i have n't figured out what the terms in hugin mean , versus what java bayes terms are . grad a: ok . grad b: um , by the way , are do we know whether jerry and nancy are coming ? grad a: so we can figure this out . grad b: or ? grad a: they should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . so . grad c: what d what do they need to do left ? grad a: um , i guess , jerry needs to enter marks , but i do n't know if he 's gon na do that now or later . but , uh , if he 's gon na enter marks , it 's gon na take him awhile , i guess , and he wo n't be here . grad c: and what 's nancy doing ? grad a: nancy ? um , she was sorta finishing up the , uh , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but i do n't know if she should be here . well or , she should be free after that , so assuming she 's coming to this meeting . i do n't know if she knows about it . grad c: she 's on the email list , right ? grad a: is she ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . ok . because basically , what where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together grad d: ok . grad b: sometime this week again grad a: ok . grad b: and finish up the , uh , values of this . so we have , uh believe it or not , we have all the bottom ones here . grad c: well , i grad d: you added a bunch of nodes , for ? grad b: yep . we we we have actually what we have is this line . grad d: ok . grad b: right ? grad c: uh , what do the , uh , structures do ? grad b: hmm ? grad c: so the the the for instance , this location node 's got two inputs , grad a: four inputs . grad b: hmm . grad c: that one you grad b: four . grad a: those are the bottom things are inputs , also . grad c: oh , i see . grad a: yeah . grad c: ok , that was ok . that makes a lot more sense to me now . grad b: yep . grad c: cuz i thought it was like , that one in stuart 's book about , you know , the grad a: alarm in the dog ? grad c: u yeah . grad a: yeah . grad c: or the earthquake and the alarm . grad a: sorry . yeah , i 'm confusing two . grad c: yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in java bayes , grad a: right . grad c: is n't it ? grad a: maybe . grad c: but there 's something about bowel problems or something with the dog . grad a: yeah . grad b: and we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . what we 're missing are the these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . so , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . and maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more . and , um . and then it 's just , uh , edges , many of edges . and , um , we wo n't { comment } meet next monday . so . grad c: cuz of memorial day ? grad a: we 'll meet next tuesday , i guess . grad b: yep . yeah . grad c: when 's jerry leaving for italia ? grad b: on on friday . grad a: which friday ? grad b: this this friday . grad a: ok . grad d: oh . this friday ? grad c: ugh . grad b: this friday . grad c: as in , four days ? grad b: yep . grad c: or , three days ? grad a: is he how long is he gone for ? grad b: two weeks . grad a: italy , huh ? what 's , uh what 's there ? grad b: well , it 's a country . buildings . people . grad a: pasta . grad c: but it 's not a conference or anything . grad b: hmm ? grad c: he 's just visiting . grad a: right . just visiting . grad b: vacation . grad a: it 's a pretty nice place , in my brief , uh , encounter with it . grad b: do you guys oh , yeah . so . part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back . um , so grad c: oh , i think we should disappoint him . grad b: yeah ? you or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and uh grad c: that would n't be disappointing . i think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he 's gone . grad b: well , that 's actually what i had planned , personally . i had i i had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and i do nothing . and then , i sort of grad c: oh , yeah , that sounds good , too . grad b: sort of bask in in your glory . but , uh , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because i myself am going to be , um , gone , but this is actually not really important . just this weekend we 're going camping . grad c: yeah , i 'm wan na be this gone this weekend , too . grad b: ah . but we 're all going to be here on tuesday again ? looks like it ? grad d: yeah . grad b: ok , then . let 's meet meet again next tuesday . and , um , finish up this bayes - net . and once we have finished it , i guess we can , um and that 's going to be more just you and me , because bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , uh , grad c: killing machines ! grad b: reasoning machines . grad a: yes . grad b: and , um grad c: killing , reasoning . what 's the difference ? grad d: wait . so you 're saying , next tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or or ? grad b: uh . the whole group . and we present our results , our final , grad d: ok . grad b: definite grad d: so , when you were saying we need to do a re - run of , like grad a: h what ? grad d: what like , just working out the rest of the grad b: yeah . we should do this th the upcoming days . grad d: this week ? grad b: so , this week , yeah . grad c: when you say , `` the whole group `` , you mean the four of us , and keith ? grad d: ok . grad b: and , ami might . grad c: ami might be here , and it 's possible that nancy 'll be here ? grad b: yep . grad c: so , yeah . grad b: because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done grad c: you 're just gon na have to explain it to me , then , on tuesday , how it 's all gon na work out . you know . grad b: we will . ok . because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and grad c: that you will have in about nine months or so . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: and , um , grad c: the first bad version 'll be done in nine months . grad b: yeah , i can worry about the ontology interface and you can keith can worry about the discourse . i mean , this is pretty um , i mean , i i i hope everybody uh knows that these are just going to be uh dummy values , right ? grad a: which grad b: where the grad a: which ones ? grad b: s so so if the endpoint if the go - there is yes and no , then go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . right ? grad a: um , what do you mean ? if the go - there says no , then the go - there is grad d: i do n't get it . grad a: i do n't u understand . grad b: um . grad a: like , the go - there depends on all those four things . grad b: yep . grad a: yeah . grad b: but , what are the values of the go - there - discourse ? grad a: well , it depends on the situation . if the discourse is strongly indicating that grad b: yeah , but , uh , we have no discourse input . grad a: oh , i see . the d see , uh , specifically in our situation , d and o are gon na be , uh yeah . sure . so , whatever . grad d: so , so far we have is that what the keith node is ? grad b: yep . grad d: ok . and you 're taking it out ? for now ? grad b: well , this is d grad d: or ? grad b: ok , this , i can i can get it in here . grad d: all the d 's are grad b: i can get it in here , so th we have the , uh , um , sk let 's let 's call it `` keith - johno grad a: johno ? grad b: node `` . there is an h { comment } somewhere printed . grad c: there you go . grad a: yeah . people have the same problem with my name . grad b: yeah . grad a: oops . grad b: and , um , grad c: does th th does the h go b before the a or after the a ? grad a: oh , in my name ? before the a . grad c: yeah . ok , good . cuz you kn when you said people have the same problem , i thought cuz my h goes after the uh e e e the v grad a: people have the inverse problem with my name . grad c: ok . i always have to check , every time y i send you an email , { comment } a past email of yours , { comment } to make sure i 'm spelling your name correctly . grad a: yeah . that 's good . grad c: i worry about you . grad a: i appreciate that . grad b: but , when you abbreviate yourself as the `` basman `` , you do n't use any h 's . grad a: `` basman `` ? yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named michael basman , who is my hero . grad b: ok . grad c: you 're a geek . it 's o k . i grad b: ok . grad c: how do you pronou how do you pronounce your name ? grad d: eva . grad c: eva ? grad a: not eva ? grad d: yeah . grad c: what if i were what if i were to call you eva ? grad d: i 'd probably still respond to it . i 've had people call me eva , but i do n't know . grad c: no , not just eva , eva . like if i u take the v and s pronounce it like it was a german v ? grad b: which is f . grad c: yeah . grad d: um , no idea then . grad b: voiced . grad d: what ? grad c: it sounds like an f . grad d: i grad c: there 's also an f in german , grad d: ok . grad b: well , it 's just the difference between voiced and unvoiced . grad c: which is why i yeah . grad d: ok . grad c: as long as that 's o k . grad d: um . grad c: i mean , i might slip out and say it accidentally . that 's all i 'm saying . grad d: that 's fine . grad a: yeah . it does n't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights `` zero `` for now . grad b: yep . we 'll make them zero for now , because it who who knows what they come up with , what 's gon na come in there . ok . and , um , then should we start on thursday ? grad a: ok . grad b: and not meet tomorrow ? grad a: sure . grad b: ok . i 'll send an email , make a time suggestion . grad c: wait , maybe it 's ok , so that that that we can that we have one node per construction . cuz even in people , like , they do n't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction . grad b: yeah , they would still c sort of get the closest , best fit . grad c: well , yeah , but i mean , the uh , i mean , that 's what the construction parser would do . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i mean , if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction , grad b: ok . grad c: right ? but if you said something that was completel er h theoretically the construction parser would do that but if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people would n't have any idea what you were talking about . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: like `` bus dog fried egg . `` i mean . you know . grad b: or , if even something chinese , for example . grad c: or , something in mandarin , yeah . or cantonese , as the case may be . what do you think about that , bhaskara ? grad a: i mean well but how many constructions do could we possibly have nodes for ? grad c: in this system , or in r grad a: no , we . like , when people do this kind of thing . grad c: oh , when p how many constructions do people have ? grad a: yeah . grad c: i have not { comment } the slightest idea . grad a: is it considered to be like in are they considered to be like very , uh , sort of s abstract things ? grad c: every noun is a construction . grad a: ok , so it 's like in the thousands . grad c: the yeah . any any form - meaning pair , to my understanding , is a construction . grad a: ok . grad b: so . grad c: and form u starts at the level of noun or actually , maybe even sounds . grad b: phoneme . yep . grad c: yeah . and goes upwards until you get the ditransitive construction . grad a: s grad c: and then , of course , the c i guess , maybe there can be the can there be combinations of the dit grad a: discourse - level constructions . grad c: yeah . the `` giving a speech `` construction , grad b: rhetorical constructions . grad a: yes . grad b: yeah . but , i mean , you know , you can probably count count the ways . i mean . grad c: it 's probab yeah , i would s definitely say it 's finite . grad b: yeah . grad c: and at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite . grad a: how 's that ? how it can be finite , again ? grad c: nah , i ca n't think of a way it would be infinite . grad b: well , you can come up with new constructions . grad c: yeah . { comment } if the if your if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , uh , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about . grad a: but , i mean , in the practical sense , it 's impossible . grad c: right . cuz if we have a fixed number of neurons ? grad a: yeah . grad c: so the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons . grad a: well , two to the power of the number of neurons . grad c: right . but still finite . grad b: ok . grad c: no , wait . not necessarily , is it ? we can end the meeting . i just ca n't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , uh lots of different neurons , to specify different values ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: um , yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of grad c: there 's a bandwidth issue , grad a: bandw - yeah , so you ca n't do better than something . grad c: right ? yeah . grad b: turn off the mikes . otherwise it gets really tough for the tr

due to most outputs not being relevant to the given context , they will either have to be pruned a posteriori , or only a subset of the possible decision nodes will be computed in each occasion . the latter option could follow a binary search-tree approach and it could also be better in computational terms . in any case , on what basis the `` winner '' output is chosen is not clear .

how does the bayes-net deal with inputs ? </s> grad b: so i guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , johno . this is what , uh , grad c: this is a meeting for me . grad b: um , eva , bhaskara , and i did . grad d: did you add more stuff to it ? later ? grad b: um . why ? grad d: um . i do n't know . there were , like , the you know , @ @ and all that stuff . but . i thought you you said you were adding stuff grad b: uh , no . grad d: but i do n't know . grad b: this is um , ha ! very nice . um , so we thought that , we can write up uh , an element , and for each of the situation nodes that we observed in the bayes - net ? so . what 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? is it under construction ? or is it on fire or something happening to it ? or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through parking , location , hotel , car , restroom , @ @ { comment } riots , fairs , strikes , or disasters . grad c: so is this is a situation are is all the things which can be happening right now ? or , what is the situation type ? grad b: that 's basically just specifying the the input for the w what 's grad c: oh , i see y why are you specifying it in xml ? grad b: um . just because it forces us to be specific about the values here ? grad c: ok . grad b: and , also , i mean , this is a what the input is going to be . right ? so , we will , uh this is a schema . this is grad c: well , yeah . i just do n't know if this is th l what the does this is what java bayes takes ? as a bayes - net spec ? grad b: no , because i mean if we i mean we 're sure gon na interface to we 're gon na get an xml document from somewhere . right ? and that xml document will say `` we are able to we were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ { comment } of the location that the car is near . `` so that 's gon na be { comment } um . grad c: so this is the situational context , everything in it . is that what situation is short for , shi situational context ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: so this is just , again , a an xml schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible xml structures , which we view as input into the bayes - net . right ? grad c: and then we can r uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? that put it into the format that the bayes n or java bayes or whatever wants ? grad b: yea - are you talking are you talking about the the structure ? grad c: well it grad b: i mean when you observe a node . grad c: when you when you say the input to the v java bayes , { comment } it takes a certain format , grad b: um - hmm . grad c: right ? which i do n't think is this . although i do n't know . grad b: no , it 's certainly not this . nuh . grad c: so you could just could n't you just run a grad b: xsl . { comment } yeah . grad c: yeah . to convert it into the java bayes for format ? grad b: yep . grad c: ok . grad b: that 's that 's no problem , but i even think that , um i mean , once once you have this sort of as running as a module right ? what you want is you wan na say , `` ok , give me the posterior probabilities of the go - there node , when this is happening . `` right ? when the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , and this is happening . and with this you can specify the what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . so we get after we are done , through the situation we get the user vector . so , this is a grad c: so this is just a specification of all the possible inputs ? grad b: yep . and , all the possible outputs , too . so , we have , um , for example , the , uh , go - there decision node grad c: ok . grad b: which has two elements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gon na be all the decision nodes and all the the a all the posterior probabilities for all the values . grad c: and then we would just look at the , eh , struct that we wan na look at in terms of if if we 're only asking about one of the so like , if i 'm just interested in the going - there node , i would just pull that information out of the struct that gets return that would that java bayes would output ? grad b: um , pretty much , yes , but i think it 's a little bit more complex . as , if i understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . so , when we input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . right ? grad c: ok . grad b: so there is no way of telling it t not to tell us about the eva values . grad c: yeah , wait i agree , that 's yeah , use oh , uh yeah , ok . grad b: so so we get this whole list of of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . so y you said if you `` i 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not `` , then i just look at that node , look which one grad c: look at that struct in the output , grad b: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: look at that struct in the the output , even though i would n't call it a `` struct `` . but . grad c: well i well , it 's an xml structure that 's being res returned , grad b: oh . mm - hmm . grad c: right ? grad b: so every part of a structure is a `` struct `` . yeah . grad c: yeah , i just uh i just was abbreviated it to struct in my head , and started going with that . grad b: that element or object , i would say . grad c: not a c struct . that 's not what i was trying to k grad b: yeah . grad c: though yeah . grad b: ok . and , um , the reason is why i think it 's a little bit more complex or why why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is um . so . the , uh let 's look at an example . grad c: well , w would n't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then run another transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ? grad b: yeah . w we 'd need to prune . right ? throw things away . grad c: well , actually , you do n't even need to do that with xml . grad b: no grad c: d ca n't you just look at one specific grad b: yeah , exactly . the @ @ { comment } xerxes allows you to say , u `` just give me the value of that , and that , and that . `` but , we do n't really know what we 're interested in before we look at the complete at at the overall result . so the person said , um , `` where is x ? `` and so , we want to know , um , is does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? or does he want to go there ? let 's assume this is our our question . grad c: sure . grad b: nuh ? so . um . do this in perl . so we get ok . let 's assume this is the output . so . we should con be able to conclude from that that i mean . it 's always gon na give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and does n't want to go there , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . but , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . so , does he wan na know where it is ? or does he wan na go there ? grad c: he wants to know where it is . grad b: right . i i i tend to agree . and if it 's if grad c: well now , y i mean , you could grad b: and i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um and this is pretty , uh indifferent , then we then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does want to go there . grad c: uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we would n't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be the question for we have `` where is x ? `` is the question , right ? that would just be info - on or location ? based upon grad b: or go - there . a lot of people ask that , if they actually just wan na go there . people come up to you on campus and say , `` where 's the library ? `` you 're gon na say y you 're gon na say , g `` go down that way . `` you 're not gon na say `` it 's it 's five hundred yards away from you `` or `` it 's north of you `` , or `` it 's located `` grad c: well , i mean but the there 's so you just have three decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together . grad b: um . i do n't know whether i understand what you mean . but . again , in this given this input , we , also in some situations , may wan na postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now the nicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it or whatever . so , it n i mean a all i 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gon na get the full output . and some some things will always be sort of too not significant enough . grad c: wha or i or i it 'll be tight . you wo n't it 'll be hard to decide . grad b: yep . grad c: but i mean , i guess i guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of an uncertainty , which makes me think bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . so if you had if for every construction , grad b: oh ! grad c: right ? you could say , `` well , there here 's the where - is construction . `` and for the where - is construction , we know we need to l look at this node , that merges these three things together grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: as for th to decide the response . and since we have a finite number of constructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes . grad b: ok . mm - hmm . grad c: say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language , it would n't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but since we can only deal with a finite amount of stuff grad b: so , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net . grad c: yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net . grad b: but , why why why only those three ? why not the whol grad c: well , i mean , d for the where - is question . so we 'd have a node for the where - is question . grad b: yeah . but we believe that all the decision nodes are can be relevant for the where - is , and the where how - do - i - get - to or the tell - me - something - about . grad c: you can come in if you want . grad b: yes , it is allowed . grad c: as long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . well , i do i see , i do n't know if this is a good idea or not . i 'm just throwing it out . but uh , it seems like we could have i mea or uh we could put all of the all of the r information that could also be relevant into the where - is node answer grad b: mm - hmm . yep . grad c: node thing stuff . and uh grad d: ok . grad b: i mean let 's not forget we 're gon na get some very strong input from these sub dis from these discourse things , right ? so . `` tell me the location of x . `` nuh ? or `` where is x located at ? `` grad c: we u grad b: nuh ? grad c: yeah , i know , but the bayes - net would be able to the weights on the on the nodes in the bayes - net would be able to do all that , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: would n't it ? here 's a k oh ! oh , i 'll wait until you 're plugged in . oh , do n't sit there . sit here . you know how you do n't like that one . it 's ok . that 's the weird one . that 's the one that 's painful . that hurts . it hurts so bad . i 'm h i 'm happy that they 're recording that . that headphone . the headphone that you have to put on backwards , with the little little thing and the little little foam block on it ? it 's a painful , painful microphone . grad b: i think it 's th called `` the crown `` . grad c: the crown ? grad d: what ? grad b: yeah , versus `` the sony `` . grad a: the crown ? is that the actual name ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . the manufacturer . grad c: i do n't see a manufacturer on it . grad b: you w grad c: oh , wait , here it is . h this thingy . yeah , it 's `` the crown `` . the crown of pain ! grad a: yes . grad b: you 're on - line ? grad c: are you are your mike o is your mike on ? grad a: indeed . grad c: ok . so you 've been working with these guys ? you know what 's going on ? grad a: yes , i have . and , i do . yeah , alright . s so where are we ? grad c: excellent ! grad b: we 're discussing this . grad a: i do n't think it can handle french , but anyway . grad b: so . assume we have something coming in . a person says , `` where is x ? `` , and we get a certain we have a situation vector and a user vector and everything is fine ? an - an and and our and our grad c: did you just sti did you just stick the m the the the microphone actually in the tea ? grad a: no . grad b: and , um , grad a: i 'm not drinking tea . what are you talking about ? grad c: oh , yeah . sorry . grad b: let 's just assume our bayes - net just has three decision nodes for the time being . these three , he wants to know something about it , he wants to know where it is , he wants to go there . grad c: in terms of , these would be wha how we would answer the question where - is , right ? we u this is i that 's what you s it seemed like , explained it to me earlier grad b: yeah , but , mmm . grad c: w we we 're we wan na know how to answer the question `` where is x ? `` grad b: yeah . no , i can i can do the timing node in here , too , and say `` ok . `` grad c: well , yeah , but in the s uh , let 's just deal with the s the simple case of we 're not worrying about timing or anything . we just want to know how we should answer `` where is x ? `` grad b: ok . and , um , ok , and , go - there has two values , right ? , go - there and not - go - there . let 's assume those are the posterior probabilities of that . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: info - on has true or false and location . so , he wants to know something about it , and he wants to know something he wants to know where - it - is , grad a: excuse me . grad b: has these values . and , um , grad c: oh , i see why we ca n't do that . grad b: and , um , in this case we would probably all agree that he wants to go there . our belief - net thinks he wants to go there , grad a: yeah . grad b: right ? grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: in the , uh , whatever , if we have something like this here , and this like that and maybe here also some grad a: you should probably { comment } make them out of yeah . grad b: something like that , grad c: well , it grad b: then we would guess , `` aha ! he , our belief - net , { comment } has s stronger beliefs that he wants to know where it is , than actually wants to go there . `` right ? grad c: that it does n't this assume , though , that they 're evenly weighted ? grad d: true . grad c: like i guess they are evenly weighted . grad a: the different decision nodes , you mean ? grad c: yeah , the go - there , the info - on , and the location ? grad a: well , d yeah , this is making the assumption . yes . grad c: like grad b: what do you mean by `` differently weighted `` ? they do n't feed into anything really anymore . grad a: but i mean , why do we grad c: or i jus grad a: if we trusted the go - there node more th much more than we trusted the other ones , then we would conclude , even in this situation , that he wanted to go there . grad c: le grad a: so , in that sense , we weight them equally right now . grad b: ok . makes sense . yeah . but grad c: so the but i guess the k the question that i was as er wondering or maybe robert was proposing to me is how do we d make the decision on as to which one to listen to ? grad a: yeah , so , the final d decision is the combination of these three . so again , it 's it 's some kind of , uh grad c: bayes - net . grad a: yeah , sure . grad c: ok so , then , the question i so then my question is t to you then , would be so is the only r reason we can make all these smaller bayes - nets , because we know we can only deal with a finite set of constructions ? cuz oth if we 're just taking arbitrary language in , we could n't have a node for every possible question , you know ? grad a: a decision node for every possible question , you mean ? grad c: well , i like , in the case of yeah . in the ca any piece of language , we would n't be able to answer it with this system , b if we just h cuz we would n't have the correct node . basically , w what you 're s proposing is a n where - is node , right ? grad a: yeah . grad c: and and if we and if someone says , you know , uh , something in mandarin to the system , we 'd - would n't know which node to look at to answer that question , grad a: so is yeah . yeah . grad c: right ? grad b: mmm ? grad c: so , but but if we have a finite what ? grad b: i do n't see your point . what what what i am thinking , or what we 're about to propose here is we 're always gon na get the whole list of values and their posterior probabilities . and now we need an expert system or belief - net or something that interprets that , that looks at all the values and says , `` the winner is timing . now , go there . `` `` uh , go there , timing , now . `` or , `` the winner is info - on , function - off . `` so , he wants to know something about it , and what it does . nuh ? uh , regardless of of of the input . wh - regardle grad c: yeah , but but how does the expert but how does the expert system know how who which one to declare the winner , if it does n't know the question it is , and how that question should be answered ? grad b: based on the k what the question was , so what the discourse , the ontology , the situation and the user model gave us , we came up with these values for these decisions . grad c: yeah i know . but how do we weight what we get out ? as , which one i which ones are important ? so my i so , if we were to it with a bayes - net , we 'd have to have a node for every question that we knew how to deal with , that would take all of the inputs and weight them appropriately for that question . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: does that make sense ? yay , nay ? grad a: um , i mean , are you saying that , what happens if you try to scale this up to the situation , or are we just dealing with arbitrary language ? grad c: we grad a: is that your point ? grad c: well , no . i i guess my question is , is the reason that we can make a node f or ok . so , lem me see if i 'm confused . are we going to make a node for every question ? does that make sense ? grad a: for every question ? grad c: or not . grad a: like grad c: every construction . grad a: hmm . i do n't not necessarily , i would think . i mean , it 's not based on constructions , it 's based on things like , uh , there 's gon na be a node for go - there or not , and there 's gon na be a node for enter , view , approach . grad c: wel w ok . so , someone asked a question . grad a: yeah . grad c: how do we decide how to answer it ? grad b: well , look at look face yourself with this pr question . you get this you 'll have y this is what you get . and now you have to make a decision . what do we think ? what does this tell us ? and not knowing what was asked , and what happened , and whether the person was a tourist or a local , because all of these factors have presumably already gone into making these posterior probabilities . what what we need is a just a mechanism that says , `` aha ! there is `` grad c: yeah . i just do n't think a `` winner - take - all `` type of thing is the grad a: i mean , in general , like , we wo n't just have those three , right ? we 'll have , uh , like , many , many nodes . so we have to , like so that it 's no longer possible to just look at the nodes themselves and figure out what the person is trying to say . grad b: yep . because there are interdependencies , right ? the uh uh , no . so if if for example , the go - there posterior possibility is so high , um , uh , w if it 's if it has reached reached a certain height , then all of this becomes irrelevant . so . if even if if the function or the history or something is scoring pretty good on the true node , true value grad c: wel i do n't know about that , cuz that would suggest that i mean grad b: he wants to go there and know something about it ? grad c: do they have to be mutual yeah . do they have to be mutually exclusive ? grad b: i think to some extent they are . or maybe they 're not . grad c: cuz i , uh the way you describe what they meant , they were n't mutu uh , they did n't seem mutually exclusive to me . grad b: well , if he does n't want to go there , even if the enter posterior proba so . grad c: wel grad b: go - there is no . enter is high , and info - on is high . grad c: well , yeah , just out of the other three , though , that you had in the grad b: hmm ? grad c: those three nodes . the - d they did n't seem like they were mutually exclusive . grad b: no , there 's no . but it 's through the grad c: so th s so , yeah , but some so , some things would drop out , and some things would still be important . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: but i guess what 's confusing me is , if we have a bayes - net to deal w another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: you know , uh , is the only reason ok , so , i guess , if we have a ba - another bayes - net to deal with this stuff , the only r reason we can design it is cuz we know what each question is asking ? grad a: yeah . i think that 's true . grad c: and then , so , the only reason way we would know what question he 's asking is based upon oh , so if let 's say i had a construction parser , and i plug this in , i would know what each construction the communicative intent of the construction was grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: and so then i would know how to weight the nodes appropriately , in response . so no matter what they said , if i could map it onto a where - is construction , i could say , `` ah ! grad a: ge mm - hmm . grad c: well the the intent , here , was where - is `` , grad a: ok , right . grad c: and i could look at those . grad a: yeah . yes , i mean . sure . you do need to know i mean , to have that kind of information . grad b: hmm . yeah , i 'm also agreeing that a simple pru { comment } take the ones where we have a clear winner . forget about the ones where it 's all sort of middle ground . prune those out and just hand over the ones where we have a winner . yeah , because that would be the easiest way . we just compose as an output an xml mes message that says . `` go there now . `` `` enter historical information . `` and not care whether that 's consistent with anything . right ? but in this case if we say , `` definitely he does n't want to go there . he just wants to know where it is . `` or let 's call this this `` look - at - h `` he wants to know something about the history of . so he said , `` tell me something about the history of that . `` now , the e but for some reason the endpoint - approach gets a really high score , too . we ca n't expect this to be sort of at o point { comment } three , three , three , o point , three , three , three , o point , three , three , three . right ? somebody needs to zap that . you know ? or know there needs to be some knowledge that grad c: we yeah , but , the bayes - net that would merge i just realized that i had my hand in between my mouth and my micr er , my and my microphone . so then , the bayes - net that would merge there , that would make the decision between go - there , info - on , and location , would have a node to tell you which one of those three you wanted , and based upon that node , then you would look at the other stuff . grad b: yep . yep . grad c: i mean , it i does that make sense ? grad b: yep . it 's sort of one of those , that 's it 's more like a decision tree , if if you want . you first look o at the lowball ones , grad c: yeah , i grad b: and then grad c: yeah , i did n't intend to say that every possible ok . there was a confusion there , k i did n't intend to say every possible thing should go into the bayes - net , because some of the things are n't relevant in the bayes - net for a specific question . like the endpoint is not necessarily relevant in the bayes - net for where - is until after you 've decided whether you wan na go there or not . grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: right . grad c: show us the way , bhaskara . grad a: i guess the other thing is that um , yeah . i mean , when you 're asked a specific question and you do n't even like , if you 're asked a where - is question , you may not even look like , ask for the posterior probability of the , uh , eva node , right ? cuz , that 's what i mean , in the bayes - net you always ask for the posterior probability of a specific node . so , i mean , you may not even bother to compute things you do n't need . grad b: um . are n't we always computing all ? grad a: no . you can compute , uh , the posterior probability of one subset of the nodes , given some other nodes , but totally ignore some other nodes , also . basically , things you ignore get marginalized over . grad b: yeah , but that 's that 's just shifting the problem . then you would have to make a decision , grad a: yeah . so you have to make grad b: `` ok , if it 's a where - is question , which decision nodes do i query ? `` grad a: yeah . yes . but i would think that 's what you want to do . grad b: that 's un grad a: right ? grad b: mmm . grad d: well , eventually , you still have to pick out which ones you look at . grad b: yeah . grad d: so it 's pretty much the same problem , grad b: yeah it 's it 's it 's apples and oranges . grad d: is n't it ? grad b: nuh ? i mean , maybe it does make a difference in terms of performance , computational time . grad a: mm - hmm . grad b: so either you always have it compute all the posterior possibilities for all the values for all nodes , and then prune the ones you think that are irrelevant , grad a: mmm . grad b: or you just make a p @ @ { comment } a priori estimate of what you think might be relevant and query those . grad a: yeah . grad c: so basically , you 'd have a decision tree query , go - there . if k if that 's false , query this one . if that 's true , query that one . and just basically do a binary search through the ? grad a: i do n't know if it would necessarily be that , uh , complicated . but , uh i mean , it w grad c: well , in the case of go - there , it would be . in the case cuz if you needed an if y if go - there was true , you 'd wan na know what endpoint was . and if it was false , you 'd wan na d look at either lo - income info - on or history . grad a: yeah . that 's true , i guess . yeah , so , in a way you would have that . grad c: also , i 'm somewhat boggled by that hugin software . grad a: ok , why 's that ? grad c: i ca n't figure out how to get the probabilities into it . like , i 'd look at grad a: mm - hmm . grad c: it 's somewha it 's boggling me . grad a: ok . alright . well , hopefully it 's fixable . grad c: ju grad a: it 's there 's a grad c: oh yeah , yeah . i d i just think i have n't figured out what the terms in hugin mean , versus what java bayes terms are . grad a: ok . grad b: um , by the way , are do we know whether jerry and nancy are coming ? grad a: so we can figure this out . grad b: or ? grad a: they should come when they 're done their stuff , basically , whenever that is . so . grad c: what d what do they need to do left ? grad a: um , i guess , jerry needs to enter marks , but i do n't know if he 's gon na do that now or later . but , uh , if he 's gon na enter marks , it 's gon na take him awhile , i guess , and he wo n't be here . grad c: and what 's nancy doing ? grad a: nancy ? um , she was sorta finishing up the , uh , calculation of marks and assigning of grades , but i do n't know if she should be here . well or , she should be free after that , so assuming she 's coming to this meeting . i do n't know if she knows about it . grad c: she 's on the email list , right ? grad a: is she ? ok . grad b: mm - hmm . ok . because basically , what where we also have decided , prior to this meeting is that we would have a rerun of the three of us sitting together grad d: ok . grad b: sometime this week again grad a: ok . grad b: and finish up the , uh , values of this . so we have , uh believe it or not , we have all the bottom ones here . grad c: well , i grad d: you added a bunch of nodes , for ? grad b: yep . we we we have actually what we have is this line . grad d: ok . grad b: right ? grad c: uh , what do the , uh , structures do ? grad b: hmm ? grad c: so the the the for instance , this location node 's got two inputs , grad a: four inputs . grad b: hmm . grad c: that one you grad b: four . grad a: those are the bottom things are inputs , also . grad c: oh , i see . grad a: yeah . grad c: ok , that was ok . that makes a lot more sense to me now . grad b: yep . grad c: cuz i thought it was like , that one in stuart 's book about , you know , the grad a: alarm in the dog ? grad c: u yeah . grad a: yeah . grad c: or the earthquake and the alarm . grad a: sorry . yeah , i 'm confusing two . grad c: yeah , there 's a dog one , too , but that 's in java bayes , grad a: right . grad c: is n't it ? grad a: maybe . grad c: but there 's something about bowel problems or something with the dog . grad a: yeah . grad b: and we have all the top ones , all the ones to which no arrows are pointing . what we 're missing are the these , where arrows are pointing , where we 're combining top ones . so , we have to come up with values for this , and this , this , this , and so forth . and maybe just fiddle around with it a little bit more . and , um . and then it 's just , uh , edges , many of edges . and , um , we wo n't { comment } meet next monday . so . grad c: cuz of memorial day ? grad a: we 'll meet next tuesday , i guess . grad b: yep . yeah . grad c: when 's jerry leaving for italia ? grad b: on on friday . grad a: which friday ? grad b: this this friday . grad a: ok . grad d: oh . this friday ? grad c: ugh . grad b: this friday . grad c: as in , four days ? grad b: yep . grad c: or , three days ? grad a: is he how long is he gone for ? grad b: two weeks . grad a: italy , huh ? what 's , uh what 's there ? grad b: well , it 's a country . buildings . people . grad a: pasta . grad c: but it 's not a conference or anything . grad b: hmm ? grad c: he 's just visiting . grad a: right . just visiting . grad b: vacation . grad a: it 's a pretty nice place , in my brief , uh , encounter with it . grad b: do you guys oh , yeah . so . part of what we actually want to do is sort of schedule out what we want to surprise him with when when he comes back . um , so grad c: oh , i think we should disappoint him . grad b: yeah ? you or have a finished construction parser and a working belief - net , and uh grad c: that would n't be disappointing . i think w we should do absolutely no work for the two weeks that he 's gone . grad b: well , that 's actually what i had planned , personally . i had i i had sort of scheduled out in my mind that you guys do a lot of work , and i do nothing . and then , i sort of grad c: oh , yeah , that sounds good , too . grad b: sort of bask in in your glory . but , uh , i do you guys have any vacation plans , because i myself am going to be , um , gone , but this is actually not really important . just this weekend we 're going camping . grad c: yeah , i 'm wan na be this gone this weekend , too . grad b: ah . but we 're all going to be here on tuesday again ? looks like it ? grad d: yeah . grad b: ok , then . let 's meet meet again next tuesday . and , um , finish up this bayes - net . and once we have finished it , i guess we can , um and that 's going to be more just you and me , because bhaskara is doing probabilistic , recursive , structured , object - oriented , uh , grad c: killing machines ! grad b: reasoning machines . grad a: yes . grad b: and , um grad c: killing , reasoning . what 's the difference ? grad d: wait . so you 're saying , next tuesday , is it the whole group meeting , or just us three working on it , or or ? grad b: uh . the whole group . and we present our results , our final , grad d: ok . grad b: definite grad d: so , when you were saying we need to do a re - run of , like grad a: h what ? grad d: what like , just working out the rest of the grad b: yeah . we should do this th the upcoming days . grad d: this week ? grad b: so , this week , yeah . grad c: when you say , `` the whole group `` , you mean the four of us , and keith ? grad d: ok . grad b: and , ami might . grad c: ami might be here , and it 's possible that nancy 'll be here ? grad b: yep . grad c: so , yeah . grad b: because , th you know , once we have the belief - net done grad c: you 're just gon na have to explain it to me , then , on tuesday , how it 's all gon na work out . you know . grad b: we will . ok . because then , once we have it sort of up and running , then we can start you know , defining the interfaces and then feed stuff into it and get stuff out of it , and then hook it up to some fake construction parser and grad c: that you will have in about nine months or so . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: and , um , grad c: the first bad version 'll be done in nine months . grad b: yeah , i can worry about the ontology interface and you can keith can worry about the discourse . i mean , this is pretty um , i mean , i i i hope everybody uh knows that these are just going to be uh dummy values , right ? grad a: which grad b: where the grad a: which ones ? grad b: s so so if the endpoint if the go - there is yes and no , then go - there - discourse will just be fifty - fifty . right ? grad a: um , what do you mean ? if the go - there says no , then the go - there is grad d: i do n't get it . grad a: i do n't u understand . grad b: um . grad a: like , the go - there depends on all those four things . grad b: yep . grad a: yeah . grad b: but , what are the values of the go - there - discourse ? grad a: well , it depends on the situation . if the discourse is strongly indicating that grad b: yeah , but , uh , we have no discourse input . grad a: oh , i see . the d see , uh , specifically in our situation , d and o are gon na be , uh yeah . sure . so , whatever . grad d: so , so far we have is that what the keith node is ? grad b: yep . grad d: ok . and you 're taking it out ? for now ? grad b: well , this is d grad d: or ? grad b: ok , this , i can i can get it in here . grad d: all the d 's are grad b: i can get it in here , so th we have the , uh , um , sk let 's let 's call it `` keith - johno grad a: johno ? grad b: node `` . there is an h { comment } somewhere printed . grad c: there you go . grad a: yeah . people have the same problem with my name . grad b: yeah . grad a: oops . grad b: and , um , grad c: does th th does the h go b before the a or after the a ? grad a: oh , in my name ? before the a . grad c: yeah . ok , good . cuz you kn when you said people have the same problem , i thought cuz my h goes after the uh e e e the v grad a: people have the inverse problem with my name . grad c: ok . i always have to check , every time y i send you an email , { comment } a past email of yours , { comment } to make sure i 'm spelling your name correctly . grad a: yeah . that 's good . grad c: i worry about you . grad a: i appreciate that . grad b: but , when you abbreviate yourself as the `` basman `` , you do n't use any h 's . grad a: `` basman `` ? yeah , it 's because of the chessplayer named michael basman , who is my hero . grad b: ok . grad c: you 're a geek . it 's o k . i grad b: ok . grad c: how do you pronou how do you pronounce your name ? grad d: eva . grad c: eva ? grad a: not eva ? grad d: yeah . grad c: what if i were what if i were to call you eva ? grad d: i 'd probably still respond to it . i 've had people call me eva , but i do n't know . grad c: no , not just eva , eva . like if i u take the v and s pronounce it like it was a german v ? grad b: which is f . grad c: yeah . grad d: um , no idea then . grad b: voiced . grad d: what ? grad c: it sounds like an f . grad d: i grad c: there 's also an f in german , grad d: ok . grad b: well , it 's just the difference between voiced and unvoiced . grad c: which is why i yeah . grad d: ok . grad c: as long as that 's o k . grad d: um . grad c: i mean , i might slip out and say it accidentally . that 's all i 'm saying . grad d: that 's fine . grad a: yeah . it does n't matter what those nodes are , anyway , because we 'll just make the weights `` zero `` for now . grad b: yep . we 'll make them zero for now , because it who who knows what they come up with , what 's gon na come in there . ok . and , um , then should we start on thursday ? grad a: ok . grad b: and not meet tomorrow ? grad a: sure . grad b: ok . i 'll send an email , make a time suggestion . grad c: wait , maybe it 's ok , so that that that we can that we have one node per construction . cuz even in people , like , they do n't know what you 're talking about if you 're using some sort of strange construction . grad b: yeah , they would still c sort of get the closest , best fit . grad c: well , yeah , but i mean , the uh , i mean , that 's what the construction parser would do . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: uh , i mean , if you said something completely arbitrary , it would f find the closest construction , grad b: ok . grad c: right ? but if you said something that was completel er h theoretically the construction parser would do that but if you said something for which there was no construction whatsoever , n people would n't have any idea what you were talking about . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: like `` bus dog fried egg . `` i mean . you know . grad b: or , if even something chinese , for example . grad c: or , something in mandarin , yeah . or cantonese , as the case may be . what do you think about that , bhaskara ? grad a: i mean well but how many constructions do could we possibly have nodes for ? grad c: in this system , or in r grad a: no , we . like , when people do this kind of thing . grad c: oh , when p how many constructions do people have ? grad a: yeah . grad c: i have not { comment } the slightest idea . grad a: is it considered to be like in are they considered to be like very , uh , sort of s abstract things ? grad c: every noun is a construction . grad a: ok , so it 's like in the thousands . grad c: the yeah . any any form - meaning pair , to my understanding , is a construction . grad a: ok . grad b: so . grad c: and form u starts at the level of noun or actually , maybe even sounds . grad b: phoneme . yep . grad c: yeah . and goes upwards until you get the ditransitive construction . grad a: s grad c: and then , of course , the c i guess , maybe there can be the can there be combinations of the dit grad a: discourse - level constructions . grad c: yeah . the `` giving a speech `` construction , grad b: rhetorical constructions . grad a: yes . grad b: yeah . but , i mean , you know , you can probably count count the ways . i mean . grad c: it 's probab yeah , i would s definitely say it 's finite . grad b: yeah . grad c: and at least in compilers , that 's all that really matters , as long as your analysis is finite . grad a: how 's that ? how it can be finite , again ? grad c: nah , i ca n't think of a way it would be infinite . grad b: well , you can come up with new constructions . grad c: yeah . { comment } if the if your if your brain was totally non - deterministic , then perhaps there 's a way to get , uh , infin an infinite number of constructions that you 'd have to worry about . grad a: but , i mean , in the practical sense , it 's impossible . grad c: right . cuz if we have a fixed number of neurons ? grad a: yeah . grad c: so the best - case scenario would be the number of constructions or , the worst - case scenario is the number of constructions equals the number of neurons . grad a: well , two to the power of the number of neurons . grad c: right . but still finite . grad b: ok . grad c: no , wait . not necessarily , is it ? we can end the meeting . i just ca n't you use different var different levels of activation ? across , uh lots of different neurons , to specify different values ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad a: um , yeah , but there 's , like , a certain level of grad c: there 's a bandwidth issue , grad a: bandw - yeah , so you ca n't do better than something . grad c: right ? yeah . grad b: turn off the mikes . otherwise it gets really tough for the tr

the presented bayes-net takes inputs from the situation , user , discourse and ontology models . there are several values ( elements ) defined in each of these models . the inputs are fed into the belief-net , which , in turn , outputs the posterior probabilities for the values of all the decision nodes . these comprise `` go-there '' , `` eva '' , `` info-on '' , `` location '' , `` timing '' , etc . at this stage , all the decision nodes are evenly weighted : regardless of the context , each output is trusted equally . input and output node structure was presented in xml , as this is the format that will be used for the system . a large number of the value probabilities have already been set .

what was the meeting about ? </s> professor a: ok . grad b: ok we 're on and we seem to be working . phd c: yes . professor a: ok . grad b: we did n't crash we 're not crashing anymore phd c: one , two , three , four , f grad b: and it really bothers me . professor a: yeah ? phd c: no crashing . phd g: i do . i crashed when i started this morning . grad b: you crashed crashed this morning ? i did not crash this morning . phd c: yeah ? professor a: oh ! well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day . phd g: really ? yeah . maybe , yeah . professor a: first time first time in the day , you know . phd g: or maybe it 's once you 've done enough meetings { comment } it wo n't crash on you anymore . phd e: yeah . phd c: no ? postdoc f: yeah . phd g: it 's a matter of experience . phd e: yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: self - learning , yeah . professor a: that 's that 's great . phd g: yeah . professor a: uh . phd c: yeah . professor a: do we have an agenda ? liz liz and andreas ca n't sh ca n't uh , ca n't come . grad b: i do . professor a: so , they wo n't be here . grad b: i have agenda and it 's all me . phd g: did grad b: cuz no one sent me anything else . phd g: did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ? grad b: i have no idea but i just got it a few minutes ago . phd g: oh . grad b: right when you were in my office it arrived . phd g: oh . ok , cuz i checked my mail . i did n't have anything . grad b: so , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? i actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits . professor a: uh , right , so so i i was just gon na talk briefly about the nsf itr . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad b: oh , great . professor a: uh , and then , you have postdoc f: can w professor a: i mean , i wo n't say much , but { comment } uh , but then , uh , you said wan na talk about digits ? grad b: i have a short thing about digits and then uh i wan na talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . so maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who for whom it 's relevant . professor a: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i could always say something about transcription . i 've been but but uh , well professor a: well if we yeah , we should n't add things in just to add things in . i 'm actually pretty busy today , postdoc f: yeah . professor a: so if we can { comment } we postdoc f: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor a: a short meeting would be fine . postdoc f: this does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . that wo n't do . grad b: so the only thing i wan na say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . there are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were n't really read . so i wo n't really know until i go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . so i wa uh . two things . the first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? my opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . you know , the grouping is completely random , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: so it it 's perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set . postdoc f: oh ! by throw them out completely ? grad b: um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . so those are those are the two options . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: but there 's often things where people do false starts . i know i 've done it , where i say say a grad b: what the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , { comment } you extract the right string . phd g: oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did n't correct it ? phd e: yeah . grad b: yeah . and did n't notice . which happens in a few places . phd e: yeah . phd g: ah . phd c: yeah . grad b: so so postdoc f: well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ? grad b: correct . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: i get it . grad b: and so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then but then the transcript is n't the aurora test set anymore . i do n't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . and that would be a little easier . phd g: well how many are how how often does that happen ? grad b: mmm , five or six times . phd g: oh , so it 's not very much . grad b: no , it 's not much at all . phd g: seems like we should just change the transcripts phd e: yeah . grad b: ok . phd g: to match . professor a: yeah , it 's five or six times out of thousands ? phd c: yeah . grad b: four thousand . professor a: four thousand ? phd c: four thous ah ! four thousand . phd g: yeah , it 's professor a: yeah , i would , uh , tak do the easy way , phd g: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: ok . phd c: yeah . professor a: it it 's kinda nice i mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker - dependent things phd c: mmm . professor a: and so i think having having it all phd c: yeah . professor a: the speakers who we had is is at least interesting . phd g: so you um , how many digits have been transcribed now ? grad b: four thousand lines . and each line is between one and about ten digits . phd g: four thousand lines ? grad b: i did n't i did n't compute the average . i think the average was around four or five . professor a: so that 's a couple hours of of , uh , speech , probably . phd g: wow . grad b: yep . yep . professor a: which is a yeah reasonable reasonable test set . phd c: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . grad b: and , jane , i do have a set of forms which i think you have copies of somewhere . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah , true . grad b: oh you do ? oh ok , good , good . postdoc f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: yeah , i was just wond i thought i had had all of them back from you . and then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gon na read later , were suggested by liz postdoc f: no , not yet . grad b: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . and so , uh , i just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: eight eight two two two nine . grad b: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it . professor a: i see . and the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the the numerics . grad b: uh , yes , although we could switch it back . the problem was o and zero . although we could switch it back and tell them always to say `` zero `` or always to say `` o `` . postdoc f: oh professor a: or neither . phd c: yeah . professor a: but it 's just two thing ways that you can say it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: right ? grad b: sure . postdoc f: oh . professor a: um um , phd e: yeah . professor a: that 's the only thought i have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr she 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it there 's there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way . grad b: right . professor a: i mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way . grad b: the the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . i mean i 'm speaking for her since she 's not here . professor a: yeah . grad b: but , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , { comment } they might say forty - three instead of four three . phd e: yeah . phd g: mmm . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , if there 's space , though , between them . i mean , you can with when you space them out they do n't look like , uh , forty - three anymore . phd e: yeah . grad b: well , she and i were talking about it , professor a: yeah . grad b: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking . professor a: she 's right . it 's it it 's a different problem . i mean it 's a it 's a it 's an interesting problem i mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people if you say s `` three nine eight one `` sometimes people will say `` thirty - nine eighty - one `` or `` three hundred three hundred eighty - nine one `` , or i do n't think they 'd say that , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but th grad b: not very frequently professor a: no grad b: but , they certainly could . professor a: but yeah . uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it . grad b: so . i mean , this is something that liz and i spoke about professor a: but i see . grad b: and , since this was something that liz asked for specifically , i think we need to defer to her . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . professor a: ok . well , we 're probably gon na be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wan na do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions , grad b: do something different , professor a: but this is the next suggestion , grad b: yeah . professor a: so . ok . ok , so uh e l i guess , let me , uh , get my my short thing out about the nsf . i sent this actually this is maybe a little side thing . um , i i sent to what i thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was `` m mtg rcdr hyphen joint `` . grad b: it was . joint . yep . professor a: but then i got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to grad b: it 's that 's because they set the one up at uw postdoc f: grad b: that 's not on our side , that 's on the u - dub { comment } side . professor a: oh . grad b: and so u - uw set it up as a moderated list . postdoc f: yeah . professor a: oh , ok . grad b: and , i have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wan na mail to mari professor a: no no , th i got i got , uh , little excited notes from mari and jeff and so on , grad b: and professor a: so it 's grad b: ok , good . professor a: yeah . grad b: so the moderator actually did repost it . professor a: yeah . grad b: cuz i had sent one earlier actually the same thing happened to me i had sent one earlier . the message says , `` you 'll be informed `` and then i was never informed but i got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so . professor a: right . grad b: it 's just to prevent spam . professor a: i see . yeah so o ok . well , anyway , i guess everybody here are y are you are on that list , right ? so you got the note ? phd g: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah ? ok . phd g: yeah . professor a: um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on on more more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from i guess higher level from my point of view . uh , and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh so is i for it was a proposal for the itr program , uh , information technology research program 's part of national science foundation . it 's the second year of their doing , uh , these grants . they 're they 're a lot of them are some of them anyway , are larger larger grants than the usual , small nsf grants , and . so , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we we , uh , got through that . and so th the the next phase will be we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . and i 'm i i hope to be doing very little of it . and uh , which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . so . grad b: when 's when 's the full proposal due ? professor a: uh , i think april ninth , or something . so it 's about a month . phd e: p s professor a: um grad b: yep . and they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms , phd g: u grad b: is that phd g: tomorrow . professor a: tomorrow . march second , i said . phd e: tomorrow ? grad b: i 've been a day off all week . phd c: tomorrow . phd e: yeah . grad b: i guess that 's a good thing cuz that way i got my papers done early . phd g: it would be interesting professor a: so that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting ! grad b: it is . it is actually quite amazing . phd e: yeah . phd g: it 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments . professor a: yeah . yeah . my favorite is was when when when one reviewer says , uh , `` you know , this should be far more detailed `` , and the nex the next reviewer says , `` you know , there 's way too much detail `` . grad b: yep . or `` this is way too general `` , and the other reviewer says , `` this is way too specific `` . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: `` this is way too hard `` , `` way too easy `` . professor a: we 'll see . maybe there 'll be something useful . and and , uh grad b: well it sounded like they they the first gate was pretty easy . is that right ? that they did n't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ? professor a: do you know anything about the numbers ? grad b: no . just just th phd g: it 's just from his message it sounded like that . phd e: yeah . yeah . i said something , yeah . phd g: gary strong 's professor a: i phd g: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs phd e: yeah . phd g: i professor a: i should go back and look . i did n't i do n't think that 's true . grad b: yeah , ok . phd g: mmm . he said the next phase 'll be very , competitive phd e: very very , phd g: because we did n't want to weed out much in the first phase . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor a: well we 'll have to see what the numbers are . grad b: or something like that , phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: so . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . but they they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . professor a: so , uh , you know , maybe they did n't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's it 's usually a pretty but it yeah . it 's it 's certainly not i 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left . grad b: right . professor a: i 'm sure it 's , you know grad b: how how many awards are there , do you know ? professor a: well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size they have three size grants . this one there 's , um see the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , i forget , i think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . and and we 're in the middle middle category . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: i think we 're , uh , uh , i forget what it was . but , um uh , i do n't remember , but it 's pr probably along the li i i could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or that they 'll fund , or twenty . i mean when they do you do you know how many they funded when they f in in chuck 's , that he got last year ? phd g: i do n't i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad b: i thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , was n't it ? professor a: well they fund phd g: i i 'm professor a: they phd g: i do n't remember . professor a: yeah . i mean grad b: uh it does n't matter , we 'll find out one way or another . professor a: yeah . i mean last time i think they just had two categories , small and big , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll there 'll be more of them that they fund than of the big . phd g: if we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to icsi in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ? professor a: uh . grad b: exactly what we say in the proposal . phd g: i i mean uh which part is icsi though . professor a: you know , it i none of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about . phd g: i mean dang ! professor a: um , well , no , i mean it 's u it phd g: it 's just for the research to continue the research on the meeting recorder stuff ? professor a: it 's extending the research , right ? because the other phd g: yeah . grad b: yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for meeting recorder . professor a: yeah . yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with communicator uh , especially with the newer things with the more acoustically - oriented things are are are are lower level . and , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of of , um , the conversation of mapping the conversations phd g: mm - hmm . right , right . professor a: to different kind of planes . so . um . but , um . so it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's so it 's it would be new . phd g: so assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gon na hafta , hire more students , or , something ? professor a: well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and uh . yeah , there there would be there would be new hires , and and there there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always for everybody there 's there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so , phd g: right . professor a: there 's there 's a continual need to to bring in new things . phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd g: right . professor a: but but there definitely would be new new new , uh , students , phd g: i see . professor a: and so forth , both at at uw and here . grad b: are there any students in your class who are expressing interest ? professor a: um , not clear yet . not clear yet . grad b: other than the one who 's already here . professor a: i mean we got we have yeah , two of them are two in the c there 're two in the class already here , and then and and , uh uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh but he he he wo n't be in the country that long , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and , maybe another will end up . grad b: yep . professor a: actually there is one other guy who 's looking that that 's that guy , uh , jeremy ? { comment } i think . phd c: mm - hmm . professor a: anyway , yeah that 's that 's all i was gon na say is that that that 's you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in in march in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know we 'll see what happens . uh , the last one was that you had there , { comment } was about naming ? grad b: yep . it just , uh we 've been cutting up sound files , in for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . and liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that has n't really been resolved about naming . so , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . um , phd c: yeah . grad b: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . and that 's easy enough to do . and i do n't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . so that means , uh , instead of calling it `` mr one `` , `` mr two `` , you 'd call it `` mrm zero zero one `` , `` mrm zero zero two `` , things like that . just so that they 're they 're all the same length . postdoc f: but , you know , when you , do things like that you can always as long as you have uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string . grad b: the problem is that they 're a lot of fields . postdoc f: you know , so `` zero zero two `` grad b: alright , postdoc f: yeah . grad b: so we we have th we 're gon na have the speaker id , the session , uh uh , information on the microphones , postdoc f: yeah , well , your example was really grad b: information on the speak on the channels and all that . phd c: uh - huh . postdoc f: i grad b: and so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier . postdoc f: ok . grad d: she wanted to keep them the same lengths across different meetings also . so like , the nsa meeting lengths , { comment } all filenames are gon na be the same length as the meeting recorder meeting names ? grad b: yep . and as i said , the it 's we just do n't have that many that that 's a big deal . phd g: cuz of digits . grad b: and so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . and when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming . postdoc f: i i would think though that the transcribe the transcripts themselves would n't need to have such lengthy names . grad b: right . postdoc f: so , i mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff , grad b: right . so the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names , postdoc f: so , it 's a different set . grad b: i would change them to match . so instead of being mr one it would be mrm zero zero one . but i do n't think that 's a big deal . postdoc f: fine . fine . grad b: so for for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting i ds . uh , for speakers , m or f and then three numbers , for , uh and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . we want some way of specifying , more than looking in the `` key `` file , what channel and what mike . what channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . or i do n't know how to s say it . so i mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w as a wireless . phd c: yeah . phd e: yep . grad b: and you know that one is a different headset and different channel . and so we just need some naming conventions on that . phd c: yeah . grad b: and , uh , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: that 's gon na become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . we have some new microphones that i 'd like to start trying out , um , once i test them . and then we 'll we 'll need to specify that somewhere . so i was just gon na do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types . phd c: yeah . grad b: so , as i said phd e: ok . phd g: that sounds good . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , since we have such a short agenda list i guess i wi i will ask how how are the transcriptions going ? yeah . postdoc f: the the news is that i 've i uh s so in s um so i 've switched to start my new sentence . i i switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the uh , tighter time bins for partly for use in thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . and , um , i discovered in the process a couple of of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . and i and i wanted to maybe ask , uh , chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . maybe i was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . and i i have a script , i can piece them together . i mean , so it 's like , i i know that i can take them apart and put them together and i 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of of , uh , utterances to check through . phd c: yeah . professor a: i 'm a little confused . i thought that that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than than , uh , the the other transcription , uh , thing was that that we were using the mixed file . postdoc f: oh , yes . ok . but , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers . professor a: mm - hmm . yeah . postdoc f: so someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: and for purposes of of , uh , things like well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that . professor a: ok . postdoc f: and w and w and , you know , is a it would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , i 've th the so , i i do n't know exactly where that 's going at this point . but m i was experimenting with doing this by hand and i really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that does n't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: um , i did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: as you might expect , professor a: sure . postdoc f: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . and if we 're gon na study types of overlaps , which is what i wan na do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening { comment } to every single channel all the way through the entire { comment } length for all the different speakers . now , for only four speakers , that 's not gon na be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . so it 's li you know , kind of wondering and i think again it 's like this it 's really valuable that thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting . phd e: yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem i think . uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so . postdoc f: ok . well so then then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: just so that they 're they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: cuz there are large s spaces of the that 's a good point . there are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . someone 's giving a presentation , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: or whatever . that 's that 's a good that 's a good thought . and , um , let 's see , there was one other thing i was gon na say . i i think it 's really interesting data to work with , i have to say , it 's very enjoyable . i really , not not a problem spending time with these data . really interesting . and not just because i 'm in there . no , it 's real interesting . professor a: uh , well i think it 's a short meeting . uh , you 're you 're you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , i assume , phd c: is true . postdoc f: professor a: and phd c: i have n't results , eh , yet professor a: yeah . phd c: but , eh , i i 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , { comment } after the the last experience . professor a: yeah . yeah . phd c: and and i 'm tried to to , uh , adjust the to to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , i i implement . professor a: yeah . phd c: but i have problem because , eh , i get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , harmonic possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now i 'm i 'm i 'm trying to to find , eh , some kind of a , um of h of help , eh , using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics , and and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . and , eh , i have to to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because i have , eh , an algorithm , and , i get , mmm , eh , t t results similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that i i am following . but , eh , the the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics , is does n't work well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: and i i i i not sure that i eh , the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is right , or it 's it 's not right . eh , professor a: yeah . phd c: i have n't enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened . professor a: yeah , i 'd like to talk with you about it . if if if , uh if i do n't have enough time and y you wan na discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be stephane . phd c: yeah . i talked with stephane and and thilo professor a: yeah and and thilo , yeah . phd c: and , professor a: yeah , but phd c: they nnn they they { comment } they did n't phd e: i 'm not too experienced with harmonics professor a: i see . phd c: they think that { comment } the experience is not enough to phd e: and phd g: is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? phd c: no , no it 's no no . no . phd g: and then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy professor a: yeah , that 's wh phd c: no . i i i i do n't proth process the the fundamental . i i , ehm i calculate the the phase derivate using the fft . professor a: yeah . phd c: and the algorithm said that , eh , if you if you change the the the , eh , nnn the x - the frequency `` x `` , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics , eh , professor a: uh - huh . phd c: the errors of peaks the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around these , eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic . and , eh , if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency , eh , of the of the , eh , continuous , eh , eh , filters , that , eh that , eh , they used eh , to to to get , eh , the the instantaneous frequency , professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: it probably too , you can find , eh , that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous , eh , eh the output of the continuous filters are very near . and in my case i in equal with our signal , it does n't happened . professor a: yeah . i 'd hafta look at that and think about it . phd c: and professor a: it 's it 's it 's i have n't worked with that either so i 'm not sure the way the simple - minded way i suggested was what chuck was just saying , is that you could make a a sieve . you know , y you actually say that here is phd c: yeah . professor a: let 's let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and and , uh , maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by by uh , making some guesses , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but uh uh uh , i would , uh i mean you could make some guesses from , uh from the auto - correlation or something but but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency , and and see how much of the take the one that 's maximum . call that the phd c: yeah . professor a: but phd c: using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency . professor a: of all the harmonics of that . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd g: do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ? phd c: i do n't use . phd g: or phd c: but , i i know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to to to get , eh , the pitch . professor a: no . to get the pitch , yes . phd c: i do n't use . to get the pitch , yes . phd e: to get the pitch , yeah . phd c: but the harmonic , no . phd g: but i but the harmonics are gon na be , uh , uh , i do n't know what the right word is . um , they 're gon na be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? the response of the vocal tract . professor a: yeah ? phd c: yeah ? phd g: and so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics , is that gon na ? professor a: well so the thing is that the this is for , uh , a , um phd g: i m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . right ? phd e: yeah . phd g: and just look at the at at the signal coming out of the glottis . professor a: yeah . uh , well , yeah that 'd be good . phd c: yeah . professor a: but , uh but i but but i do n't know that you need to grad b: open wide ! professor a: but i do n't need you know if you need to get rid of it . i mean that 'd that 'd be nice but i do n't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . um , i mean cuz i think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying phd g: uh - huh . professor a: wha what are you doing this for ? you 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh where where there are more than uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker . grad b: sorry . professor a: so if there 's more than one speaker , um yeah i guess you could i guess yeah you 're so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so so , i if you do n't if you do n't care about that phd c: yeah . professor a: see , if you also wan na just determine if you also wan na determine whether it 's unvoiced , then i think you want to look look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gon na be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced . phd g: yeah . professor a: but , i i uh i mean i i but , um , other than that i guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be primarily a low frequency phenomenon . and if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gon na there 's gon na be a spectral slope . the higher frequencies will be lower energy . but so what . i mean that 's that 's w phd c: i will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and will will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , i have n't enough feeling to to u many time to to understand what happened with the with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and i i see the harmonics there many time but , eh , there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , i have to discover what what is the the w the best way to to { comment } to { comment } c to use them professor a: well , but yeah i do n't think you can i mean you 're not gon na be able to look at every frame , so i mean i i mean i i really i i really thought that the best way to do it , and i 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , my impression was that the best way to do it was however you you 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . { comment } however you 've come up you with your candidates , you wan na see how much of the energy is in that phd c: yeah . yeah . professor a: as coppo as opposed to all of the all the total energy . and , um , if it 's voiced , i guess so so y i think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . but if it 's voiced , phd c: yeah . professor a: um , and the , uh e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be then it 's more likely to be an overlap . phd c: is height . yeah . this this is the idea the idea i i i had to to compare the the ratio of the the energy of the harmonics with the eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to to distinguish between overlapping and speech . mmm . professor a: but you 're looking a y you 're looking at let 's take a second with this . uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in in , uh , what domain ? i mean this is this is in in in in bands ? or or phd c: no , no , no . professor a: just just overall phd c: it 's a it 's a o i w the band the band is , eh , from zero to to four kilohertz . and i i ot i professor a: and you just take the instantaneous frequency ? phd c: yeah . i u m t i i used two m two method two methods . eh , one , eh , based on the f eh , ftt . to fft to to obtain the or to study the harmonics from from the spectrum directly , professor a: yeah . phd c: and to study the energy and the multiples of professor a: yeah . phd c: frequency . and another another algorithm i have is the in the instantaneous frequency , based on on on the fft to to to calculate the the phase derivate in the time . eh , uh n the d i mean i i have two two algorithms . professor a: right . phd c: but , eh , in m i in my opinion the the the instantaneous frequency , the the the behavior , eh , was th it was very interesting . because i i saw eh , how the spectrum concentrate , eh , professor a: oh ! phd c: around the the harmonic . but then when i apply the the rule , eh , of the in the the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the the near filter , the the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper does n't work . and i do n't know why . professor a: but the instantaneous frequency , would n't that give you something more like the central frequency of the you know , of the where most of the energy is ? i mean , i think if you does i does it why would it correspond to pitch ? phd c: yeah . i i i not sure . i i i try to to professor a: yeah . phd c: when first i i calculate , eh , using the fft , postdoc f: di - digital camera . phd c: the the grad b: keep forgetting . phd c: i get the the spectrum , professor a: yeah . phd c: and i represent all the frequency . professor a: yeah . phd c: and when ou i obtained the instantaneous frequency . and i change the the the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here . professor a: oh , so you scale you s you do a a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous phd c: i use yeah . professor a: it 's a kinda normalization . phd c: yeah . yeah . because when when professor a: ok . phd c: eh , when i i i use these these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different . professor a: yeah . phd c: and i observe more more or less , thing like this . and the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics . professor a: i see . huh . phd c: but , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the in the because to to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a hanning window . professor a: yeah . phd c: and , they said that , eh , if these peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . but , eh , phh ! i do n't i i i i don i i and i do n't know what is the what is the distance . and i tried to to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , pfff ! and i i not sure what happened . professor a: ok , yeah well i i guess i 'm not following it enough . i 'll { comment } probably gon na hafta look at the paper , but which i 'm not gon na have time to do in the next few days , but but i 'm i 'm curious about it . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , uh , ok . postdoc f: i i did i it did occur to me that this is uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing i wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . so , i wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . and the reason i ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some i had the indication from dan ellis in the email that i sent to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe and i was i i do n't know , i mean we had this an and i did n't could n't get back to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation , professor a: i do n't know think it 'd be ideal . postdoc f: cuz phd g: uh - uh . professor a: we - see , we 're we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible phd e: yeah . professor a: and breaths are part of real speech . postdoc f: well , except that these are really truly i mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one i did n the first one that i did for i for this , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like as if we 're you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like it 's like professor a: yeah . postdoc f: i y i i mean , breath is natural , but not professor a: it is but it is if you record it . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: except that we 're we 're trying to mimic oh , i see what you 're saying . you 're saying that the pda application would have uh , have to cope with breath . professor a: yeah . grad b: well phd e: no . postdoc f: but phd g: an - any application may have to . grad b: the p d a might not have to , phd e: no i grad b: but more people than just pda users are interested in this corpus . phd e: yeah . grad b: so so mean you 're right postdoc f: ok , then the then i have two questions . grad b: we could remove it , postdoc f: yeah ? grad b: but i i think we do n't wan na w remove it from the corpus , in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there . professor a: yeah . if it gets postdoc f: ok , so maybe the question is notating it . yeah ? professor a: yeah i right . if if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wan na have some method which will allow you to block it , but you it 's real data . you do n't wan na b but you do n't postdoc f: ok , well professor a: if s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even and we have the f uh the uh the the fan and the in the projector up there , and , uh , this is it 's this is actual stuff that we we wan na work with . postdoc f: well this is in very interesting professor a: so . postdoc f: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . and once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . ok , so now , i had a discussion with chuck about the data structure professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . you know , like , don 's been writing scripts professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . discourse side will have this this side over he the we we 'll have a s ch sorry , not being very fluent here . but , um , this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . ok . so then the then let 's let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . so what i would r r what i would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? could we get a breath detector ? grad b: oh , just to save the transcribers time . postdoc f: well , i mean , you just have no idea . i mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute , grad b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time . grad b: mm - hmm . phd e: oops . professor a: wh - what phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and you wan na be sure it 's used , and you wan na be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal . professor a: what if you put it in but did n't put the boundaries ? postdoc f: well , but professor a: so you just know it 's between these other things , postdoc f: well , ok . so now there 's there 's another another possibility professor a: right ? postdoc f: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words { comment } from nonwords . and that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient . professor a: yeah i mean i 'm think if it 's too if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , we are gon na be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if so , we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath - in `` or `` breath - out `` , the models will learn that sort of thing . uh , so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are . so postdoc f: ok . but that would maybe include a pause as well , phd g: well , there 's a there 's postdoc f: and that would n't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? professor a: yeah , i you know there is there 's this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . basically the more we can mark the better . but if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this although i i i 'd be interested to h get get input from liz and andreas on this to see if they cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in in , uh , uh , their transcripts . grad b: they have lots of experience with breathing ? phd g: i professor a: actually well , yes they do , but we we can handle that without them here . but but but , uh , you were gon na say something about phd g: yeah , i i think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gon na transcribe , u th they 're gon na transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . if there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that . phd e: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: that 's what they 've been doing . so , within an overlap segment , they they do this . phd g: right . but right . but if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , do n't do n't worry about that . phd e: yeah . phd g: so what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um so for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . but outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that was n't transcribed . so you just somebody ca n't rely on that data and say `` that 's perfectly clean data `` . uh do you see what i 'm saying ? postdoc f: yeah , you 're saying it 's uncharted territory . phd g: so i would say do n't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words . professor a: that sounds like a reasonable reasonable compromise . phd e: yeah , and that 's that that quite co corresponds to the way i i try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as i really try to not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with which are just in in a silence region . professor a: yeah . phd e: and they so they hopefully wo n't be marked in in those channel - specific files . professor a: u i i wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes . phd e: but phd g: yeah , so postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: see , in a in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a it 's not just a minor part . in fact , the i think i would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . so it 's critical it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . that 's our problem . if we had nothing postdoc f: yeah . professor a: if we had only linguistically - relevant things if if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we we did n't have noise , we did n't have convolutional errors , we did n't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i is n't that bad right now . i mean you can you know it 's it 's the technology 's come along pretty well . phd c: yeah . professor a: the the the reason we still complain about it is because is when when you have more realistic conditions then then things fall apart . postdoc f: ok , fair enough . i guess , um , i uh , what i was wondering is what what at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? because if it were likely that a pda would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it would n't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to professor a: but that 's a research question , you know ? and so postdoc f: yeah , well , see and that 's what i would n't know . professor a: that and we do n't either . i mean so so the thing is it 's it right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so we do n't wan na presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . so , you know , an and maybe maybe in five years it 'll work really well , postdoc f: ok . professor a: and and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so . postdoc f: i guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the on the earlier ones . professor a: uh - huh . i see . phd g: one of the um , just to add to this one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . i mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays . professor a: right . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . phd g: and so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd g: so i mean , i do n't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . we do n't have to go and search for them to to mark them at all , but , i mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , i 'd say put them in if possible . postdoc f: ok , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted . phd c: yeah . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor a: should we do the digits ? grad b: yep . ok . phd c: ok . grad d: mmm . alright .

the group talked about the status of the first test set of digits data , naming conventions for files , speaker identification tags , and encoding files with details about the recording . the group also discussed a proposal for a grant from the nsf 's itr ( information technology research ) program , transcriptions , and efforts by speaker mn005 to detect speaker overlap using harmonicity-related features . particular focus was paid to questions about transcription procedures , i.e . how to deal with overlooked backchannels , and audible breaths .

what problems and solutions were discussed about the recording data ? </s> professor a: ok . grad b: ok we 're on and we seem to be working . phd c: yes . professor a: ok . grad b: we did n't crash we 're not crashing anymore phd c: one , two , three , four , f grad b: and it really bothers me . professor a: yeah ? phd c: no crashing . phd g: i do . i crashed when i started this morning . grad b: you crashed crashed this morning ? i did not crash this morning . phd c: yeah ? professor a: oh ! well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day . phd g: really ? yeah . maybe , yeah . professor a: first time first time in the day , you know . phd g: or maybe it 's once you 've done enough meetings { comment } it wo n't crash on you anymore . phd e: yeah . phd c: no ? postdoc f: yeah . phd g: it 's a matter of experience . phd e: yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: self - learning , yeah . professor a: that 's that 's great . phd g: yeah . professor a: uh . phd c: yeah . professor a: do we have an agenda ? liz liz and andreas ca n't sh ca n't uh , ca n't come . grad b: i do . professor a: so , they wo n't be here . grad b: i have agenda and it 's all me . phd g: did grad b: cuz no one sent me anything else . phd g: did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ? grad b: i have no idea but i just got it a few minutes ago . phd g: oh . grad b: right when you were in my office it arrived . phd g: oh . ok , cuz i checked my mail . i did n't have anything . grad b: so , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? i actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits . professor a: uh , right , so so i i was just gon na talk briefly about the nsf itr . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad b: oh , great . professor a: uh , and then , you have postdoc f: can w professor a: i mean , i wo n't say much , but { comment } uh , but then , uh , you said wan na talk about digits ? grad b: i have a short thing about digits and then uh i wan na talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . so maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who for whom it 's relevant . professor a: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i could always say something about transcription . i 've been but but uh , well professor a: well if we yeah , we should n't add things in just to add things in . i 'm actually pretty busy today , postdoc f: yeah . professor a: so if we can { comment } we postdoc f: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor a: a short meeting would be fine . postdoc f: this does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . that wo n't do . grad b: so the only thing i wan na say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . there are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were n't really read . so i wo n't really know until i go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . so i wa uh . two things . the first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? my opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . you know , the grouping is completely random , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: so it it 's perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set . postdoc f: oh ! by throw them out completely ? grad b: um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . so those are those are the two options . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: but there 's often things where people do false starts . i know i 've done it , where i say say a grad b: what the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , { comment } you extract the right string . phd g: oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did n't correct it ? phd e: yeah . grad b: yeah . and did n't notice . which happens in a few places . phd e: yeah . phd g: ah . phd c: yeah . grad b: so so postdoc f: well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ? grad b: correct . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: i get it . grad b: and so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then but then the transcript is n't the aurora test set anymore . i do n't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . and that would be a little easier . phd g: well how many are how how often does that happen ? grad b: mmm , five or six times . phd g: oh , so it 's not very much . grad b: no , it 's not much at all . phd g: seems like we should just change the transcripts phd e: yeah . grad b: ok . phd g: to match . professor a: yeah , it 's five or six times out of thousands ? phd c: yeah . grad b: four thousand . professor a: four thousand ? phd c: four thous ah ! four thousand . phd g: yeah , it 's professor a: yeah , i would , uh , tak do the easy way , phd g: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: ok . phd c: yeah . professor a: it it 's kinda nice i mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker - dependent things phd c: mmm . professor a: and so i think having having it all phd c: yeah . professor a: the speakers who we had is is at least interesting . phd g: so you um , how many digits have been transcribed now ? grad b: four thousand lines . and each line is between one and about ten digits . phd g: four thousand lines ? grad b: i did n't i did n't compute the average . i think the average was around four or five . professor a: so that 's a couple hours of of , uh , speech , probably . phd g: wow . grad b: yep . yep . professor a: which is a yeah reasonable reasonable test set . phd c: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . grad b: and , jane , i do have a set of forms which i think you have copies of somewhere . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah , true . grad b: oh you do ? oh ok , good , good . postdoc f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: yeah , i was just wond i thought i had had all of them back from you . and then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gon na read later , were suggested by liz postdoc f: no , not yet . grad b: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . and so , uh , i just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: eight eight two two two nine . grad b: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it . professor a: i see . and the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the the numerics . grad b: uh , yes , although we could switch it back . the problem was o and zero . although we could switch it back and tell them always to say `` zero `` or always to say `` o `` . postdoc f: oh professor a: or neither . phd c: yeah . professor a: but it 's just two thing ways that you can say it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: right ? grad b: sure . postdoc f: oh . professor a: um um , phd e: yeah . professor a: that 's the only thought i have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr she 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it there 's there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way . grad b: right . professor a: i mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way . grad b: the the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . i mean i 'm speaking for her since she 's not here . professor a: yeah . grad b: but , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , { comment } they might say forty - three instead of four three . phd e: yeah . phd g: mmm . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , if there 's space , though , between them . i mean , you can with when you space them out they do n't look like , uh , forty - three anymore . phd e: yeah . grad b: well , she and i were talking about it , professor a: yeah . grad b: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking . professor a: she 's right . it 's it it 's a different problem . i mean it 's a it 's a it 's an interesting problem i mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people if you say s `` three nine eight one `` sometimes people will say `` thirty - nine eighty - one `` or `` three hundred three hundred eighty - nine one `` , or i do n't think they 'd say that , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but th grad b: not very frequently professor a: no grad b: but , they certainly could . professor a: but yeah . uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it . grad b: so . i mean , this is something that liz and i spoke about professor a: but i see . grad b: and , since this was something that liz asked for specifically , i think we need to defer to her . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . professor a: ok . well , we 're probably gon na be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wan na do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions , grad b: do something different , professor a: but this is the next suggestion , grad b: yeah . professor a: so . ok . ok , so uh e l i guess , let me , uh , get my my short thing out about the nsf . i sent this actually this is maybe a little side thing . um , i i sent to what i thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was `` m mtg rcdr hyphen joint `` . grad b: it was . joint . yep . professor a: but then i got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to grad b: it 's that 's because they set the one up at uw postdoc f: grad b: that 's not on our side , that 's on the u - dub { comment } side . professor a: oh . grad b: and so u - uw set it up as a moderated list . postdoc f: yeah . professor a: oh , ok . grad b: and , i have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wan na mail to mari professor a: no no , th i got i got , uh , little excited notes from mari and jeff and so on , grad b: and professor a: so it 's grad b: ok , good . professor a: yeah . grad b: so the moderator actually did repost it . professor a: yeah . grad b: cuz i had sent one earlier actually the same thing happened to me i had sent one earlier . the message says , `` you 'll be informed `` and then i was never informed but i got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so . professor a: right . grad b: it 's just to prevent spam . professor a: i see . yeah so o ok . well , anyway , i guess everybody here are y are you are on that list , right ? so you got the note ? phd g: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah ? ok . phd g: yeah . professor a: um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on on more more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from i guess higher level from my point of view . uh , and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh so is i for it was a proposal for the itr program , uh , information technology research program 's part of national science foundation . it 's the second year of their doing , uh , these grants . they 're they 're a lot of them are some of them anyway , are larger larger grants than the usual , small nsf grants , and . so , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we we , uh , got through that . and so th the the next phase will be we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . and i 'm i i hope to be doing very little of it . and uh , which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . so . grad b: when 's when 's the full proposal due ? professor a: uh , i think april ninth , or something . so it 's about a month . phd e: p s professor a: um grad b: yep . and they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms , phd g: u grad b: is that phd g: tomorrow . professor a: tomorrow . march second , i said . phd e: tomorrow ? grad b: i 've been a day off all week . phd c: tomorrow . phd e: yeah . grad b: i guess that 's a good thing cuz that way i got my papers done early . phd g: it would be interesting professor a: so that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting ! grad b: it is . it is actually quite amazing . phd e: yeah . phd g: it 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments . professor a: yeah . yeah . my favorite is was when when when one reviewer says , uh , `` you know , this should be far more detailed `` , and the nex the next reviewer says , `` you know , there 's way too much detail `` . grad b: yep . or `` this is way too general `` , and the other reviewer says , `` this is way too specific `` . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: `` this is way too hard `` , `` way too easy `` . professor a: we 'll see . maybe there 'll be something useful . and and , uh grad b: well it sounded like they they the first gate was pretty easy . is that right ? that they did n't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ? professor a: do you know anything about the numbers ? grad b: no . just just th phd g: it 's just from his message it sounded like that . phd e: yeah . yeah . i said something , yeah . phd g: gary strong 's professor a: i phd g: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs phd e: yeah . phd g: i professor a: i should go back and look . i did n't i do n't think that 's true . grad b: yeah , ok . phd g: mmm . he said the next phase 'll be very , competitive phd e: very very , phd g: because we did n't want to weed out much in the first phase . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor a: well we 'll have to see what the numbers are . grad b: or something like that , phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: so . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . but they they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . professor a: so , uh , you know , maybe they did n't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's it 's usually a pretty but it yeah . it 's it 's certainly not i 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left . grad b: right . professor a: i 'm sure it 's , you know grad b: how how many awards are there , do you know ? professor a: well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size they have three size grants . this one there 's , um see the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , i forget , i think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . and and we 're in the middle middle category . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: i think we 're , uh , uh , i forget what it was . but , um uh , i do n't remember , but it 's pr probably along the li i i could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or that they 'll fund , or twenty . i mean when they do you do you know how many they funded when they f in in chuck 's , that he got last year ? phd g: i do n't i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad b: i thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , was n't it ? professor a: well they fund phd g: i i 'm professor a: they phd g: i do n't remember . professor a: yeah . i mean grad b: uh it does n't matter , we 'll find out one way or another . professor a: yeah . i mean last time i think they just had two categories , small and big , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll there 'll be more of them that they fund than of the big . phd g: if we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to icsi in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ? professor a: uh . grad b: exactly what we say in the proposal . phd g: i i mean uh which part is icsi though . professor a: you know , it i none of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about . phd g: i mean dang ! professor a: um , well , no , i mean it 's u it phd g: it 's just for the research to continue the research on the meeting recorder stuff ? professor a: it 's extending the research , right ? because the other phd g: yeah . grad b: yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for meeting recorder . professor a: yeah . yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with communicator uh , especially with the newer things with the more acoustically - oriented things are are are are lower level . and , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of of , um , the conversation of mapping the conversations phd g: mm - hmm . right , right . professor a: to different kind of planes . so . um . but , um . so it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's so it 's it would be new . phd g: so assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gon na hafta , hire more students , or , something ? professor a: well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and uh . yeah , there there would be there would be new hires , and and there there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always for everybody there 's there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so , phd g: right . professor a: there 's there 's a continual need to to bring in new things . phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd g: right . professor a: but but there definitely would be new new new , uh , students , phd g: i see . professor a: and so forth , both at at uw and here . grad b: are there any students in your class who are expressing interest ? professor a: um , not clear yet . not clear yet . grad b: other than the one who 's already here . professor a: i mean we got we have yeah , two of them are two in the c there 're two in the class already here , and then and and , uh uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh but he he he wo n't be in the country that long , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and , maybe another will end up . grad b: yep . professor a: actually there is one other guy who 's looking that that 's that guy , uh , jeremy ? { comment } i think . phd c: mm - hmm . professor a: anyway , yeah that 's that 's all i was gon na say is that that that 's you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in in march in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know we 'll see what happens . uh , the last one was that you had there , { comment } was about naming ? grad b: yep . it just , uh we 've been cutting up sound files , in for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . and liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that has n't really been resolved about naming . so , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . um , phd c: yeah . grad b: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . and that 's easy enough to do . and i do n't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . so that means , uh , instead of calling it `` mr one `` , `` mr two `` , you 'd call it `` mrm zero zero one `` , `` mrm zero zero two `` , things like that . just so that they 're they 're all the same length . postdoc f: but , you know , when you , do things like that you can always as long as you have uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string . grad b: the problem is that they 're a lot of fields . postdoc f: you know , so `` zero zero two `` grad b: alright , postdoc f: yeah . grad b: so we we have th we 're gon na have the speaker id , the session , uh uh , information on the microphones , postdoc f: yeah , well , your example was really grad b: information on the speak on the channels and all that . phd c: uh - huh . postdoc f: i grad b: and so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier . postdoc f: ok . grad d: she wanted to keep them the same lengths across different meetings also . so like , the nsa meeting lengths , { comment } all filenames are gon na be the same length as the meeting recorder meeting names ? grad b: yep . and as i said , the it 's we just do n't have that many that that 's a big deal . phd g: cuz of digits . grad b: and so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . and when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming . postdoc f: i i would think though that the transcribe the transcripts themselves would n't need to have such lengthy names . grad b: right . postdoc f: so , i mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff , grad b: right . so the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names , postdoc f: so , it 's a different set . grad b: i would change them to match . so instead of being mr one it would be mrm zero zero one . but i do n't think that 's a big deal . postdoc f: fine . fine . grad b: so for for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting i ds . uh , for speakers , m or f and then three numbers , for , uh and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . we want some way of specifying , more than looking in the `` key `` file , what channel and what mike . what channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . or i do n't know how to s say it . so i mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w as a wireless . phd c: yeah . phd e: yep . grad b: and you know that one is a different headset and different channel . and so we just need some naming conventions on that . phd c: yeah . grad b: and , uh , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: that 's gon na become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . we have some new microphones that i 'd like to start trying out , um , once i test them . and then we 'll we 'll need to specify that somewhere . so i was just gon na do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types . phd c: yeah . grad b: so , as i said phd e: ok . phd g: that sounds good . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , since we have such a short agenda list i guess i wi i will ask how how are the transcriptions going ? yeah . postdoc f: the the news is that i 've i uh s so in s um so i 've switched to start my new sentence . i i switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the uh , tighter time bins for partly for use in thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . and , um , i discovered in the process a couple of of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . and i and i wanted to maybe ask , uh , chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . maybe i was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . and i i have a script , i can piece them together . i mean , so it 's like , i i know that i can take them apart and put them together and i 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of of , uh , utterances to check through . phd c: yeah . professor a: i 'm a little confused . i thought that that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than than , uh , the the other transcription , uh , thing was that that we were using the mixed file . postdoc f: oh , yes . ok . but , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers . professor a: mm - hmm . yeah . postdoc f: so someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: and for purposes of of , uh , things like well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that . professor a: ok . postdoc f: and w and w and , you know , is a it would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , i 've th the so , i i do n't know exactly where that 's going at this point . but m i was experimenting with doing this by hand and i really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that does n't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: um , i did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: as you might expect , professor a: sure . postdoc f: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . and if we 're gon na study types of overlaps , which is what i wan na do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening { comment } to every single channel all the way through the entire { comment } length for all the different speakers . now , for only four speakers , that 's not gon na be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . so it 's li you know , kind of wondering and i think again it 's like this it 's really valuable that thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting . phd e: yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem i think . uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so . postdoc f: ok . well so then then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: just so that they 're they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: cuz there are large s spaces of the that 's a good point . there are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . someone 's giving a presentation , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: or whatever . that 's that 's a good that 's a good thought . and , um , let 's see , there was one other thing i was gon na say . i i think it 's really interesting data to work with , i have to say , it 's very enjoyable . i really , not not a problem spending time with these data . really interesting . and not just because i 'm in there . no , it 's real interesting . professor a: uh , well i think it 's a short meeting . uh , you 're you 're you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , i assume , phd c: is true . postdoc f: professor a: and phd c: i have n't results , eh , yet professor a: yeah . phd c: but , eh , i i 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , { comment } after the the last experience . professor a: yeah . yeah . phd c: and and i 'm tried to to , uh , adjust the to to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , i i implement . professor a: yeah . phd c: but i have problem because , eh , i get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , harmonic possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now i 'm i 'm i 'm trying to to find , eh , some kind of a , um of h of help , eh , using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics , and and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . and , eh , i have to to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because i have , eh , an algorithm , and , i get , mmm , eh , t t results similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that i i am following . but , eh , the the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics , is does n't work well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: and i i i i not sure that i eh , the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is right , or it 's it 's not right . eh , professor a: yeah . phd c: i have n't enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened . professor a: yeah , i 'd like to talk with you about it . if if if , uh if i do n't have enough time and y you wan na discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be stephane . phd c: yeah . i talked with stephane and and thilo professor a: yeah and and thilo , yeah . phd c: and , professor a: yeah , but phd c: they nnn they they { comment } they did n't phd e: i 'm not too experienced with harmonics professor a: i see . phd c: they think that { comment } the experience is not enough to phd e: and phd g: is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? phd c: no , no it 's no no . no . phd g: and then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy professor a: yeah , that 's wh phd c: no . i i i i do n't proth process the the fundamental . i i , ehm i calculate the the phase derivate using the fft . professor a: yeah . phd c: and the algorithm said that , eh , if you if you change the the the , eh , nnn the x - the frequency `` x `` , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics , eh , professor a: uh - huh . phd c: the errors of peaks the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around these , eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic . and , eh , if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency , eh , of the of the , eh , continuous , eh , eh , filters , that , eh that , eh , they used eh , to to to get , eh , the the instantaneous frequency , professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: it probably too , you can find , eh , that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous , eh , eh the output of the continuous filters are very near . and in my case i in equal with our signal , it does n't happened . professor a: yeah . i 'd hafta look at that and think about it . phd c: and professor a: it 's it 's it 's i have n't worked with that either so i 'm not sure the way the simple - minded way i suggested was what chuck was just saying , is that you could make a a sieve . you know , y you actually say that here is phd c: yeah . professor a: let 's let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and and , uh , maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by by uh , making some guesses , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but uh uh uh , i would , uh i mean you could make some guesses from , uh from the auto - correlation or something but but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency , and and see how much of the take the one that 's maximum . call that the phd c: yeah . professor a: but phd c: using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency . professor a: of all the harmonics of that . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd g: do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ? phd c: i do n't use . phd g: or phd c: but , i i know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to to to get , eh , the pitch . professor a: no . to get the pitch , yes . phd c: i do n't use . to get the pitch , yes . phd e: to get the pitch , yeah . phd c: but the harmonic , no . phd g: but i but the harmonics are gon na be , uh , uh , i do n't know what the right word is . um , they 're gon na be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? the response of the vocal tract . professor a: yeah ? phd c: yeah ? phd g: and so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics , is that gon na ? professor a: well so the thing is that the this is for , uh , a , um phd g: i m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . right ? phd e: yeah . phd g: and just look at the at at the signal coming out of the glottis . professor a: yeah . uh , well , yeah that 'd be good . phd c: yeah . professor a: but , uh but i but but i do n't know that you need to grad b: open wide ! professor a: but i do n't need you know if you need to get rid of it . i mean that 'd that 'd be nice but i do n't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . um , i mean cuz i think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying phd g: uh - huh . professor a: wha what are you doing this for ? you 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh where where there are more than uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker . grad b: sorry . professor a: so if there 's more than one speaker , um yeah i guess you could i guess yeah you 're so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so so , i if you do n't if you do n't care about that phd c: yeah . professor a: see , if you also wan na just determine if you also wan na determine whether it 's unvoiced , then i think you want to look look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gon na be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced . phd g: yeah . professor a: but , i i uh i mean i i but , um , other than that i guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be primarily a low frequency phenomenon . and if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gon na there 's gon na be a spectral slope . the higher frequencies will be lower energy . but so what . i mean that 's that 's w phd c: i will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and will will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , i have n't enough feeling to to u many time to to understand what happened with the with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and i i see the harmonics there many time but , eh , there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , i have to discover what what is the the w the best way to to { comment } to { comment } c to use them professor a: well , but yeah i do n't think you can i mean you 're not gon na be able to look at every frame , so i mean i i mean i i really i i really thought that the best way to do it , and i 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , my impression was that the best way to do it was however you you 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . { comment } however you 've come up you with your candidates , you wan na see how much of the energy is in that phd c: yeah . yeah . professor a: as coppo as opposed to all of the all the total energy . and , um , if it 's voiced , i guess so so y i think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . but if it 's voiced , phd c: yeah . professor a: um , and the , uh e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be then it 's more likely to be an overlap . phd c: is height . yeah . this this is the idea the idea i i i had to to compare the the ratio of the the energy of the harmonics with the eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to to distinguish between overlapping and speech . mmm . professor a: but you 're looking a y you 're looking at let 's take a second with this . uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in in , uh , what domain ? i mean this is this is in in in in bands ? or or phd c: no , no , no . professor a: just just overall phd c: it 's a it 's a o i w the band the band is , eh , from zero to to four kilohertz . and i i ot i professor a: and you just take the instantaneous frequency ? phd c: yeah . i u m t i i used two m two method two methods . eh , one , eh , based on the f eh , ftt . to fft to to obtain the or to study the harmonics from from the spectrum directly , professor a: yeah . phd c: and to study the energy and the multiples of professor a: yeah . phd c: frequency . and another another algorithm i have is the in the instantaneous frequency , based on on on the fft to to to calculate the the phase derivate in the time . eh , uh n the d i mean i i have two two algorithms . professor a: right . phd c: but , eh , in m i in my opinion the the the instantaneous frequency , the the the behavior , eh , was th it was very interesting . because i i saw eh , how the spectrum concentrate , eh , professor a: oh ! phd c: around the the harmonic . but then when i apply the the rule , eh , of the in the the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the the near filter , the the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper does n't work . and i do n't know why . professor a: but the instantaneous frequency , would n't that give you something more like the central frequency of the you know , of the where most of the energy is ? i mean , i think if you does i does it why would it correspond to pitch ? phd c: yeah . i i i not sure . i i i try to to professor a: yeah . phd c: when first i i calculate , eh , using the fft , postdoc f: di - digital camera . phd c: the the grad b: keep forgetting . phd c: i get the the spectrum , professor a: yeah . phd c: and i represent all the frequency . professor a: yeah . phd c: and when ou i obtained the instantaneous frequency . and i change the the the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here . professor a: oh , so you scale you s you do a a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous phd c: i use yeah . professor a: it 's a kinda normalization . phd c: yeah . yeah . because when when professor a: ok . phd c: eh , when i i i use these these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different . professor a: yeah . phd c: and i observe more more or less , thing like this . and the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics . professor a: i see . huh . phd c: but , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the in the because to to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a hanning window . professor a: yeah . phd c: and , they said that , eh , if these peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . but , eh , phh ! i do n't i i i i don i i and i do n't know what is the what is the distance . and i tried to to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , pfff ! and i i not sure what happened . professor a: ok , yeah well i i guess i 'm not following it enough . i 'll { comment } probably gon na hafta look at the paper , but which i 'm not gon na have time to do in the next few days , but but i 'm i 'm curious about it . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , uh , ok . postdoc f: i i did i it did occur to me that this is uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing i wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . so , i wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . and the reason i ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some i had the indication from dan ellis in the email that i sent to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe and i was i i do n't know , i mean we had this an and i did n't could n't get back to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation , professor a: i do n't know think it 'd be ideal . postdoc f: cuz phd g: uh - uh . professor a: we - see , we 're we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible phd e: yeah . professor a: and breaths are part of real speech . postdoc f: well , except that these are really truly i mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one i did n the first one that i did for i for this , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like as if we 're you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like it 's like professor a: yeah . postdoc f: i y i i mean , breath is natural , but not professor a: it is but it is if you record it . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: except that we 're we 're trying to mimic oh , i see what you 're saying . you 're saying that the pda application would have uh , have to cope with breath . professor a: yeah . grad b: well phd e: no . postdoc f: but phd g: an - any application may have to . grad b: the p d a might not have to , phd e: no i grad b: but more people than just pda users are interested in this corpus . phd e: yeah . grad b: so so mean you 're right postdoc f: ok , then the then i have two questions . grad b: we could remove it , postdoc f: yeah ? grad b: but i i think we do n't wan na w remove it from the corpus , in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there . professor a: yeah . if it gets postdoc f: ok , so maybe the question is notating it . yeah ? professor a: yeah i right . if if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wan na have some method which will allow you to block it , but you it 's real data . you do n't wan na b but you do n't postdoc f: ok , well professor a: if s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even and we have the f uh the uh the the fan and the in the projector up there , and , uh , this is it 's this is actual stuff that we we wan na work with . postdoc f: well this is in very interesting professor a: so . postdoc f: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . and once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . ok , so now , i had a discussion with chuck about the data structure professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . you know , like , don 's been writing scripts professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . discourse side will have this this side over he the we we 'll have a s ch sorry , not being very fluent here . but , um , this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . ok . so then the then let 's let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . so what i would r r what i would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? could we get a breath detector ? grad b: oh , just to save the transcribers time . postdoc f: well , i mean , you just have no idea . i mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute , grad b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time . grad b: mm - hmm . phd e: oops . professor a: wh - what phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and you wan na be sure it 's used , and you wan na be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal . professor a: what if you put it in but did n't put the boundaries ? postdoc f: well , but professor a: so you just know it 's between these other things , postdoc f: well , ok . so now there 's there 's another another possibility professor a: right ? postdoc f: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words { comment } from nonwords . and that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient . professor a: yeah i mean i 'm think if it 's too if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , we are gon na be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if so , we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath - in `` or `` breath - out `` , the models will learn that sort of thing . uh , so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are . so postdoc f: ok . but that would maybe include a pause as well , phd g: well , there 's a there 's postdoc f: and that would n't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? professor a: yeah , i you know there is there 's this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . basically the more we can mark the better . but if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this although i i i 'd be interested to h get get input from liz and andreas on this to see if they cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in in , uh , uh , their transcripts . grad b: they have lots of experience with breathing ? phd g: i professor a: actually well , yes they do , but we we can handle that without them here . but but but , uh , you were gon na say something about phd g: yeah , i i think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gon na transcribe , u th they 're gon na transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . if there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that . phd e: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: that 's what they 've been doing . so , within an overlap segment , they they do this . phd g: right . but right . but if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , do n't do n't worry about that . phd e: yeah . phd g: so what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um so for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . but outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that was n't transcribed . so you just somebody ca n't rely on that data and say `` that 's perfectly clean data `` . uh do you see what i 'm saying ? postdoc f: yeah , you 're saying it 's uncharted territory . phd g: so i would say do n't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words . professor a: that sounds like a reasonable reasonable compromise . phd e: yeah , and that 's that that quite co corresponds to the way i i try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as i really try to not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with which are just in in a silence region . professor a: yeah . phd e: and they so they hopefully wo n't be marked in in those channel - specific files . professor a: u i i wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes . phd e: but phd g: yeah , so postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: see , in a in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a it 's not just a minor part . in fact , the i think i would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . so it 's critical it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . that 's our problem . if we had nothing postdoc f: yeah . professor a: if we had only linguistically - relevant things if if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we we did n't have noise , we did n't have convolutional errors , we did n't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i is n't that bad right now . i mean you can you know it 's it 's the technology 's come along pretty well . phd c: yeah . professor a: the the the reason we still complain about it is because is when when you have more realistic conditions then then things fall apart . postdoc f: ok , fair enough . i guess , um , i uh , what i was wondering is what what at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? because if it were likely that a pda would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it would n't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to professor a: but that 's a research question , you know ? and so postdoc f: yeah , well , see and that 's what i would n't know . professor a: that and we do n't either . i mean so so the thing is it 's it right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so we do n't wan na presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . so , you know , an and maybe maybe in five years it 'll work really well , postdoc f: ok . professor a: and and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so . postdoc f: i guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the on the earlier ones . professor a: uh - huh . i see . phd g: one of the um , just to add to this one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . i mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays . professor a: right . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . phd g: and so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd g: so i mean , i do n't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . we do n't have to go and search for them to to mark them at all , but , i mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , i 'd say put them in if possible . postdoc f: ok , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted . phd c: yeah . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor a: should we do the digits ? grad b: yep . ok . phd c: ok . grad d: mmm . alright .

a small percentage of transcripts will be changed to reflect mis-read , uncorrected digits . a speaker database will be compiled to establish consistent links between speakers and their corresponding identification tags .

what was the status of the recording data ? </s> professor a: ok . grad b: ok we 're on and we seem to be working . phd c: yes . professor a: ok . grad b: we did n't crash we 're not crashing anymore phd c: one , two , three , four , f grad b: and it really bothers me . professor a: yeah ? phd c: no crashing . phd g: i do . i crashed when i started this morning . grad b: you crashed crashed this morning ? i did not crash this morning . phd c: yeah ? professor a: oh ! well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day . phd g: really ? yeah . maybe , yeah . professor a: first time first time in the day , you know . phd g: or maybe it 's once you 've done enough meetings { comment } it wo n't crash on you anymore . phd e: yeah . phd c: no ? postdoc f: yeah . phd g: it 's a matter of experience . phd e: yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: self - learning , yeah . professor a: that 's that 's great . phd g: yeah . professor a: uh . phd c: yeah . professor a: do we have an agenda ? liz liz and andreas ca n't sh ca n't uh , ca n't come . grad b: i do . professor a: so , they wo n't be here . grad b: i have agenda and it 's all me . phd g: did grad b: cuz no one sent me anything else . phd g: did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ? grad b: i have no idea but i just got it a few minutes ago . phd g: oh . grad b: right when you were in my office it arrived . phd g: oh . ok , cuz i checked my mail . i did n't have anything . grad b: so , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? i actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits . professor a: uh , right , so so i i was just gon na talk briefly about the nsf itr . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad b: oh , great . professor a: uh , and then , you have postdoc f: can w professor a: i mean , i wo n't say much , but { comment } uh , but then , uh , you said wan na talk about digits ? grad b: i have a short thing about digits and then uh i wan na talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . so maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who for whom it 's relevant . professor a: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i could always say something about transcription . i 've been but but uh , well professor a: well if we yeah , we should n't add things in just to add things in . i 'm actually pretty busy today , postdoc f: yeah . professor a: so if we can { comment } we postdoc f: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor a: a short meeting would be fine . postdoc f: this does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . that wo n't do . grad b: so the only thing i wan na say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . there are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were n't really read . so i wo n't really know until i go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . so i wa uh . two things . the first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? my opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . you know , the grouping is completely random , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: so it it 's perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set . postdoc f: oh ! by throw them out completely ? grad b: um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . so those are those are the two options . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: but there 's often things where people do false starts . i know i 've done it , where i say say a grad b: what the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , { comment } you extract the right string . phd g: oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did n't correct it ? phd e: yeah . grad b: yeah . and did n't notice . which happens in a few places . phd e: yeah . phd g: ah . phd c: yeah . grad b: so so postdoc f: well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ? grad b: correct . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: i get it . grad b: and so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then but then the transcript is n't the aurora test set anymore . i do n't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . and that would be a little easier . phd g: well how many are how how often does that happen ? grad b: mmm , five or six times . phd g: oh , so it 's not very much . grad b: no , it 's not much at all . phd g: seems like we should just change the transcripts phd e: yeah . grad b: ok . phd g: to match . professor a: yeah , it 's five or six times out of thousands ? phd c: yeah . grad b: four thousand . professor a: four thousand ? phd c: four thous ah ! four thousand . phd g: yeah , it 's professor a: yeah , i would , uh , tak do the easy way , phd g: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: ok . phd c: yeah . professor a: it it 's kinda nice i mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker - dependent things phd c: mmm . professor a: and so i think having having it all phd c: yeah . professor a: the speakers who we had is is at least interesting . phd g: so you um , how many digits have been transcribed now ? grad b: four thousand lines . and each line is between one and about ten digits . phd g: four thousand lines ? grad b: i did n't i did n't compute the average . i think the average was around four or five . professor a: so that 's a couple hours of of , uh , speech , probably . phd g: wow . grad b: yep . yep . professor a: which is a yeah reasonable reasonable test set . phd c: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . grad b: and , jane , i do have a set of forms which i think you have copies of somewhere . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah , true . grad b: oh you do ? oh ok , good , good . postdoc f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: yeah , i was just wond i thought i had had all of them back from you . and then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gon na read later , were suggested by liz postdoc f: no , not yet . grad b: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . and so , uh , i just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: eight eight two two two nine . grad b: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it . professor a: i see . and the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the the numerics . grad b: uh , yes , although we could switch it back . the problem was o and zero . although we could switch it back and tell them always to say `` zero `` or always to say `` o `` . postdoc f: oh professor a: or neither . phd c: yeah . professor a: but it 's just two thing ways that you can say it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: right ? grad b: sure . postdoc f: oh . professor a: um um , phd e: yeah . professor a: that 's the only thought i have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr she 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it there 's there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way . grad b: right . professor a: i mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way . grad b: the the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . i mean i 'm speaking for her since she 's not here . professor a: yeah . grad b: but , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , { comment } they might say forty - three instead of four three . phd e: yeah . phd g: mmm . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , if there 's space , though , between them . i mean , you can with when you space them out they do n't look like , uh , forty - three anymore . phd e: yeah . grad b: well , she and i were talking about it , professor a: yeah . grad b: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking . professor a: she 's right . it 's it it 's a different problem . i mean it 's a it 's a it 's an interesting problem i mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people if you say s `` three nine eight one `` sometimes people will say `` thirty - nine eighty - one `` or `` three hundred three hundred eighty - nine one `` , or i do n't think they 'd say that , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but th grad b: not very frequently professor a: no grad b: but , they certainly could . professor a: but yeah . uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it . grad b: so . i mean , this is something that liz and i spoke about professor a: but i see . grad b: and , since this was something that liz asked for specifically , i think we need to defer to her . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . professor a: ok . well , we 're probably gon na be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wan na do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions , grad b: do something different , professor a: but this is the next suggestion , grad b: yeah . professor a: so . ok . ok , so uh e l i guess , let me , uh , get my my short thing out about the nsf . i sent this actually this is maybe a little side thing . um , i i sent to what i thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was `` m mtg rcdr hyphen joint `` . grad b: it was . joint . yep . professor a: but then i got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to grad b: it 's that 's because they set the one up at uw postdoc f: grad b: that 's not on our side , that 's on the u - dub { comment } side . professor a: oh . grad b: and so u - uw set it up as a moderated list . postdoc f: yeah . professor a: oh , ok . grad b: and , i have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wan na mail to mari professor a: no no , th i got i got , uh , little excited notes from mari and jeff and so on , grad b: and professor a: so it 's grad b: ok , good . professor a: yeah . grad b: so the moderator actually did repost it . professor a: yeah . grad b: cuz i had sent one earlier actually the same thing happened to me i had sent one earlier . the message says , `` you 'll be informed `` and then i was never informed but i got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so . professor a: right . grad b: it 's just to prevent spam . professor a: i see . yeah so o ok . well , anyway , i guess everybody here are y are you are on that list , right ? so you got the note ? phd g: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah ? ok . phd g: yeah . professor a: um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on on more more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from i guess higher level from my point of view . uh , and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh so is i for it was a proposal for the itr program , uh , information technology research program 's part of national science foundation . it 's the second year of their doing , uh , these grants . they 're they 're a lot of them are some of them anyway , are larger larger grants than the usual , small nsf grants , and . so , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we we , uh , got through that . and so th the the next phase will be we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . and i 'm i i hope to be doing very little of it . and uh , which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . so . grad b: when 's when 's the full proposal due ? professor a: uh , i think april ninth , or something . so it 's about a month . phd e: p s professor a: um grad b: yep . and they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms , phd g: u grad b: is that phd g: tomorrow . professor a: tomorrow . march second , i said . phd e: tomorrow ? grad b: i 've been a day off all week . phd c: tomorrow . phd e: yeah . grad b: i guess that 's a good thing cuz that way i got my papers done early . phd g: it would be interesting professor a: so that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting ! grad b: it is . it is actually quite amazing . phd e: yeah . phd g: it 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments . professor a: yeah . yeah . my favorite is was when when when one reviewer says , uh , `` you know , this should be far more detailed `` , and the nex the next reviewer says , `` you know , there 's way too much detail `` . grad b: yep . or `` this is way too general `` , and the other reviewer says , `` this is way too specific `` . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: `` this is way too hard `` , `` way too easy `` . professor a: we 'll see . maybe there 'll be something useful . and and , uh grad b: well it sounded like they they the first gate was pretty easy . is that right ? that they did n't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ? professor a: do you know anything about the numbers ? grad b: no . just just th phd g: it 's just from his message it sounded like that . phd e: yeah . yeah . i said something , yeah . phd g: gary strong 's professor a: i phd g: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs phd e: yeah . phd g: i professor a: i should go back and look . i did n't i do n't think that 's true . grad b: yeah , ok . phd g: mmm . he said the next phase 'll be very , competitive phd e: very very , phd g: because we did n't want to weed out much in the first phase . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor a: well we 'll have to see what the numbers are . grad b: or something like that , phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: so . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . but they they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . professor a: so , uh , you know , maybe they did n't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's it 's usually a pretty but it yeah . it 's it 's certainly not i 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left . grad b: right . professor a: i 'm sure it 's , you know grad b: how how many awards are there , do you know ? professor a: well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size they have three size grants . this one there 's , um see the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , i forget , i think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . and and we 're in the middle middle category . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: i think we 're , uh , uh , i forget what it was . but , um uh , i do n't remember , but it 's pr probably along the li i i could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or that they 'll fund , or twenty . i mean when they do you do you know how many they funded when they f in in chuck 's , that he got last year ? phd g: i do n't i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad b: i thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , was n't it ? professor a: well they fund phd g: i i 'm professor a: they phd g: i do n't remember . professor a: yeah . i mean grad b: uh it does n't matter , we 'll find out one way or another . professor a: yeah . i mean last time i think they just had two categories , small and big , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll there 'll be more of them that they fund than of the big . phd g: if we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to icsi in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ? professor a: uh . grad b: exactly what we say in the proposal . phd g: i i mean uh which part is icsi though . professor a: you know , it i none of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about . phd g: i mean dang ! professor a: um , well , no , i mean it 's u it phd g: it 's just for the research to continue the research on the meeting recorder stuff ? professor a: it 's extending the research , right ? because the other phd g: yeah . grad b: yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for meeting recorder . professor a: yeah . yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with communicator uh , especially with the newer things with the more acoustically - oriented things are are are are lower level . and , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of of , um , the conversation of mapping the conversations phd g: mm - hmm . right , right . professor a: to different kind of planes . so . um . but , um . so it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's so it 's it would be new . phd g: so assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gon na hafta , hire more students , or , something ? professor a: well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and uh . yeah , there there would be there would be new hires , and and there there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always for everybody there 's there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so , phd g: right . professor a: there 's there 's a continual need to to bring in new things . phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd g: right . professor a: but but there definitely would be new new new , uh , students , phd g: i see . professor a: and so forth , both at at uw and here . grad b: are there any students in your class who are expressing interest ? professor a: um , not clear yet . not clear yet . grad b: other than the one who 's already here . professor a: i mean we got we have yeah , two of them are two in the c there 're two in the class already here , and then and and , uh uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh but he he he wo n't be in the country that long , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and , maybe another will end up . grad b: yep . professor a: actually there is one other guy who 's looking that that 's that guy , uh , jeremy ? { comment } i think . phd c: mm - hmm . professor a: anyway , yeah that 's that 's all i was gon na say is that that that 's you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in in march in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know we 'll see what happens . uh , the last one was that you had there , { comment } was about naming ? grad b: yep . it just , uh we 've been cutting up sound files , in for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . and liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that has n't really been resolved about naming . so , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . um , phd c: yeah . grad b: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . and that 's easy enough to do . and i do n't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . so that means , uh , instead of calling it `` mr one `` , `` mr two `` , you 'd call it `` mrm zero zero one `` , `` mrm zero zero two `` , things like that . just so that they 're they 're all the same length . postdoc f: but , you know , when you , do things like that you can always as long as you have uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string . grad b: the problem is that they 're a lot of fields . postdoc f: you know , so `` zero zero two `` grad b: alright , postdoc f: yeah . grad b: so we we have th we 're gon na have the speaker id , the session , uh uh , information on the microphones , postdoc f: yeah , well , your example was really grad b: information on the speak on the channels and all that . phd c: uh - huh . postdoc f: i grad b: and so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier . postdoc f: ok . grad d: she wanted to keep them the same lengths across different meetings also . so like , the nsa meeting lengths , { comment } all filenames are gon na be the same length as the meeting recorder meeting names ? grad b: yep . and as i said , the it 's we just do n't have that many that that 's a big deal . phd g: cuz of digits . grad b: and so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . and when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming . postdoc f: i i would think though that the transcribe the transcripts themselves would n't need to have such lengthy names . grad b: right . postdoc f: so , i mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff , grad b: right . so the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names , postdoc f: so , it 's a different set . grad b: i would change them to match . so instead of being mr one it would be mrm zero zero one . but i do n't think that 's a big deal . postdoc f: fine . fine . grad b: so for for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting i ds . uh , for speakers , m or f and then three numbers , for , uh and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . we want some way of specifying , more than looking in the `` key `` file , what channel and what mike . what channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . or i do n't know how to s say it . so i mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w as a wireless . phd c: yeah . phd e: yep . grad b: and you know that one is a different headset and different channel . and so we just need some naming conventions on that . phd c: yeah . grad b: and , uh , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: that 's gon na become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . we have some new microphones that i 'd like to start trying out , um , once i test them . and then we 'll we 'll need to specify that somewhere . so i was just gon na do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types . phd c: yeah . grad b: so , as i said phd e: ok . phd g: that sounds good . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , since we have such a short agenda list i guess i wi i will ask how how are the transcriptions going ? yeah . postdoc f: the the news is that i 've i uh s so in s um so i 've switched to start my new sentence . i i switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the uh , tighter time bins for partly for use in thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . and , um , i discovered in the process a couple of of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . and i and i wanted to maybe ask , uh , chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . maybe i was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . and i i have a script , i can piece them together . i mean , so it 's like , i i know that i can take them apart and put them together and i 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of of , uh , utterances to check through . phd c: yeah . professor a: i 'm a little confused . i thought that that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than than , uh , the the other transcription , uh , thing was that that we were using the mixed file . postdoc f: oh , yes . ok . but , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers . professor a: mm - hmm . yeah . postdoc f: so someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: and for purposes of of , uh , things like well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that . professor a: ok . postdoc f: and w and w and , you know , is a it would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , i 've th the so , i i do n't know exactly where that 's going at this point . but m i was experimenting with doing this by hand and i really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that does n't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: um , i did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: as you might expect , professor a: sure . postdoc f: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . and if we 're gon na study types of overlaps , which is what i wan na do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening { comment } to every single channel all the way through the entire { comment } length for all the different speakers . now , for only four speakers , that 's not gon na be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . so it 's li you know , kind of wondering and i think again it 's like this it 's really valuable that thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting . phd e: yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem i think . uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so . postdoc f: ok . well so then then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: just so that they 're they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: cuz there are large s spaces of the that 's a good point . there are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . someone 's giving a presentation , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: or whatever . that 's that 's a good that 's a good thought . and , um , let 's see , there was one other thing i was gon na say . i i think it 's really interesting data to work with , i have to say , it 's very enjoyable . i really , not not a problem spending time with these data . really interesting . and not just because i 'm in there . no , it 's real interesting . professor a: uh , well i think it 's a short meeting . uh , you 're you 're you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , i assume , phd c: is true . postdoc f: professor a: and phd c: i have n't results , eh , yet professor a: yeah . phd c: but , eh , i i 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , { comment } after the the last experience . professor a: yeah . yeah . phd c: and and i 'm tried to to , uh , adjust the to to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , i i implement . professor a: yeah . phd c: but i have problem because , eh , i get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , harmonic possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now i 'm i 'm i 'm trying to to find , eh , some kind of a , um of h of help , eh , using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics , and and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . and , eh , i have to to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because i have , eh , an algorithm , and , i get , mmm , eh , t t results similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that i i am following . but , eh , the the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics , is does n't work well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: and i i i i not sure that i eh , the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is right , or it 's it 's not right . eh , professor a: yeah . phd c: i have n't enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened . professor a: yeah , i 'd like to talk with you about it . if if if , uh if i do n't have enough time and y you wan na discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be stephane . phd c: yeah . i talked with stephane and and thilo professor a: yeah and and thilo , yeah . phd c: and , professor a: yeah , but phd c: they nnn they they { comment } they did n't phd e: i 'm not too experienced with harmonics professor a: i see . phd c: they think that { comment } the experience is not enough to phd e: and phd g: is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? phd c: no , no it 's no no . no . phd g: and then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy professor a: yeah , that 's wh phd c: no . i i i i do n't proth process the the fundamental . i i , ehm i calculate the the phase derivate using the fft . professor a: yeah . phd c: and the algorithm said that , eh , if you if you change the the the , eh , nnn the x - the frequency `` x `` , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics , eh , professor a: uh - huh . phd c: the errors of peaks the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around these , eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic . and , eh , if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency , eh , of the of the , eh , continuous , eh , eh , filters , that , eh that , eh , they used eh , to to to get , eh , the the instantaneous frequency , professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: it probably too , you can find , eh , that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous , eh , eh the output of the continuous filters are very near . and in my case i in equal with our signal , it does n't happened . professor a: yeah . i 'd hafta look at that and think about it . phd c: and professor a: it 's it 's it 's i have n't worked with that either so i 'm not sure the way the simple - minded way i suggested was what chuck was just saying , is that you could make a a sieve . you know , y you actually say that here is phd c: yeah . professor a: let 's let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and and , uh , maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by by uh , making some guesses , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but uh uh uh , i would , uh i mean you could make some guesses from , uh from the auto - correlation or something but but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency , and and see how much of the take the one that 's maximum . call that the phd c: yeah . professor a: but phd c: using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency . professor a: of all the harmonics of that . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd g: do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ? phd c: i do n't use . phd g: or phd c: but , i i know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to to to get , eh , the pitch . professor a: no . to get the pitch , yes . phd c: i do n't use . to get the pitch , yes . phd e: to get the pitch , yeah . phd c: but the harmonic , no . phd g: but i but the harmonics are gon na be , uh , uh , i do n't know what the right word is . um , they 're gon na be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? the response of the vocal tract . professor a: yeah ? phd c: yeah ? phd g: and so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics , is that gon na ? professor a: well so the thing is that the this is for , uh , a , um phd g: i m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . right ? phd e: yeah . phd g: and just look at the at at the signal coming out of the glottis . professor a: yeah . uh , well , yeah that 'd be good . phd c: yeah . professor a: but , uh but i but but i do n't know that you need to grad b: open wide ! professor a: but i do n't need you know if you need to get rid of it . i mean that 'd that 'd be nice but i do n't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . um , i mean cuz i think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying phd g: uh - huh . professor a: wha what are you doing this for ? you 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh where where there are more than uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker . grad b: sorry . professor a: so if there 's more than one speaker , um yeah i guess you could i guess yeah you 're so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so so , i if you do n't if you do n't care about that phd c: yeah . professor a: see , if you also wan na just determine if you also wan na determine whether it 's unvoiced , then i think you want to look look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gon na be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced . phd g: yeah . professor a: but , i i uh i mean i i but , um , other than that i guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be primarily a low frequency phenomenon . and if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gon na there 's gon na be a spectral slope . the higher frequencies will be lower energy . but so what . i mean that 's that 's w phd c: i will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and will will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , i have n't enough feeling to to u many time to to understand what happened with the with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and i i see the harmonics there many time but , eh , there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , i have to discover what what is the the w the best way to to { comment } to { comment } c to use them professor a: well , but yeah i do n't think you can i mean you 're not gon na be able to look at every frame , so i mean i i mean i i really i i really thought that the best way to do it , and i 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , my impression was that the best way to do it was however you you 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . { comment } however you 've come up you with your candidates , you wan na see how much of the energy is in that phd c: yeah . yeah . professor a: as coppo as opposed to all of the all the total energy . and , um , if it 's voiced , i guess so so y i think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . but if it 's voiced , phd c: yeah . professor a: um , and the , uh e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be then it 's more likely to be an overlap . phd c: is height . yeah . this this is the idea the idea i i i had to to compare the the ratio of the the energy of the harmonics with the eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to to distinguish between overlapping and speech . mmm . professor a: but you 're looking a y you 're looking at let 's take a second with this . uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in in , uh , what domain ? i mean this is this is in in in in bands ? or or phd c: no , no , no . professor a: just just overall phd c: it 's a it 's a o i w the band the band is , eh , from zero to to four kilohertz . and i i ot i professor a: and you just take the instantaneous frequency ? phd c: yeah . i u m t i i used two m two method two methods . eh , one , eh , based on the f eh , ftt . to fft to to obtain the or to study the harmonics from from the spectrum directly , professor a: yeah . phd c: and to study the energy and the multiples of professor a: yeah . phd c: frequency . and another another algorithm i have is the in the instantaneous frequency , based on on on the fft to to to calculate the the phase derivate in the time . eh , uh n the d i mean i i have two two algorithms . professor a: right . phd c: but , eh , in m i in my opinion the the the instantaneous frequency , the the the behavior , eh , was th it was very interesting . because i i saw eh , how the spectrum concentrate , eh , professor a: oh ! phd c: around the the harmonic . but then when i apply the the rule , eh , of the in the the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the the near filter , the the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper does n't work . and i do n't know why . professor a: but the instantaneous frequency , would n't that give you something more like the central frequency of the you know , of the where most of the energy is ? i mean , i think if you does i does it why would it correspond to pitch ? phd c: yeah . i i i not sure . i i i try to to professor a: yeah . phd c: when first i i calculate , eh , using the fft , postdoc f: di - digital camera . phd c: the the grad b: keep forgetting . phd c: i get the the spectrum , professor a: yeah . phd c: and i represent all the frequency . professor a: yeah . phd c: and when ou i obtained the instantaneous frequency . and i change the the the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here . professor a: oh , so you scale you s you do a a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous phd c: i use yeah . professor a: it 's a kinda normalization . phd c: yeah . yeah . because when when professor a: ok . phd c: eh , when i i i use these these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different . professor a: yeah . phd c: and i observe more more or less , thing like this . and the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics . professor a: i see . huh . phd c: but , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the in the because to to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a hanning window . professor a: yeah . phd c: and , they said that , eh , if these peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . but , eh , phh ! i do n't i i i i don i i and i do n't know what is the what is the distance . and i tried to to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , pfff ! and i i not sure what happened . professor a: ok , yeah well i i guess i 'm not following it enough . i 'll { comment } probably gon na hafta look at the paper , but which i 'm not gon na have time to do in the next few days , but but i 'm i 'm curious about it . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , uh , ok . postdoc f: i i did i it did occur to me that this is uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing i wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . so , i wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . and the reason i ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some i had the indication from dan ellis in the email that i sent to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe and i was i i do n't know , i mean we had this an and i did n't could n't get back to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation , professor a: i do n't know think it 'd be ideal . postdoc f: cuz phd g: uh - uh . professor a: we - see , we 're we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible phd e: yeah . professor a: and breaths are part of real speech . postdoc f: well , except that these are really truly i mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one i did n the first one that i did for i for this , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like as if we 're you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like it 's like professor a: yeah . postdoc f: i y i i mean , breath is natural , but not professor a: it is but it is if you record it . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: except that we 're we 're trying to mimic oh , i see what you 're saying . you 're saying that the pda application would have uh , have to cope with breath . professor a: yeah . grad b: well phd e: no . postdoc f: but phd g: an - any application may have to . grad b: the p d a might not have to , phd e: no i grad b: but more people than just pda users are interested in this corpus . phd e: yeah . grad b: so so mean you 're right postdoc f: ok , then the then i have two questions . grad b: we could remove it , postdoc f: yeah ? grad b: but i i think we do n't wan na w remove it from the corpus , in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there . professor a: yeah . if it gets postdoc f: ok , so maybe the question is notating it . yeah ? professor a: yeah i right . if if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wan na have some method which will allow you to block it , but you it 's real data . you do n't wan na b but you do n't postdoc f: ok , well professor a: if s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even and we have the f uh the uh the the fan and the in the projector up there , and , uh , this is it 's this is actual stuff that we we wan na work with . postdoc f: well this is in very interesting professor a: so . postdoc f: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . and once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . ok , so now , i had a discussion with chuck about the data structure professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . you know , like , don 's been writing scripts professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . discourse side will have this this side over he the we we 'll have a s ch sorry , not being very fluent here . but , um , this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . ok . so then the then let 's let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . so what i would r r what i would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? could we get a breath detector ? grad b: oh , just to save the transcribers time . postdoc f: well , i mean , you just have no idea . i mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute , grad b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time . grad b: mm - hmm . phd e: oops . professor a: wh - what phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and you wan na be sure it 's used , and you wan na be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal . professor a: what if you put it in but did n't put the boundaries ? postdoc f: well , but professor a: so you just know it 's between these other things , postdoc f: well , ok . so now there 's there 's another another possibility professor a: right ? postdoc f: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words { comment } from nonwords . and that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient . professor a: yeah i mean i 'm think if it 's too if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , we are gon na be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if so , we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath - in `` or `` breath - out `` , the models will learn that sort of thing . uh , so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are . so postdoc f: ok . but that would maybe include a pause as well , phd g: well , there 's a there 's postdoc f: and that would n't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? professor a: yeah , i you know there is there 's this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . basically the more we can mark the better . but if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this although i i i 'd be interested to h get get input from liz and andreas on this to see if they cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in in , uh , uh , their transcripts . grad b: they have lots of experience with breathing ? phd g: i professor a: actually well , yes they do , but we we can handle that without them here . but but but , uh , you were gon na say something about phd g: yeah , i i think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gon na transcribe , u th they 're gon na transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . if there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that . phd e: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: that 's what they 've been doing . so , within an overlap segment , they they do this . phd g: right . but right . but if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , do n't do n't worry about that . phd e: yeah . phd g: so what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um so for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . but outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that was n't transcribed . so you just somebody ca n't rely on that data and say `` that 's perfectly clean data `` . uh do you see what i 'm saying ? postdoc f: yeah , you 're saying it 's uncharted territory . phd g: so i would say do n't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words . professor a: that sounds like a reasonable reasonable compromise . phd e: yeah , and that 's that that quite co corresponds to the way i i try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as i really try to not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with which are just in in a silence region . professor a: yeah . phd e: and they so they hopefully wo n't be marked in in those channel - specific files . professor a: u i i wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes . phd e: but phd g: yeah , so postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: see , in a in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a it 's not just a minor part . in fact , the i think i would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . so it 's critical it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . that 's our problem . if we had nothing postdoc f: yeah . professor a: if we had only linguistically - relevant things if if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we we did n't have noise , we did n't have convolutional errors , we did n't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i is n't that bad right now . i mean you can you know it 's it 's the technology 's come along pretty well . phd c: yeah . professor a: the the the reason we still complain about it is because is when when you have more realistic conditions then then things fall apart . postdoc f: ok , fair enough . i guess , um , i uh , what i was wondering is what what at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? because if it were likely that a pda would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it would n't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to professor a: but that 's a research question , you know ? and so postdoc f: yeah , well , see and that 's what i would n't know . professor a: that and we do n't either . i mean so so the thing is it 's it right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so we do n't wan na presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . so , you know , an and maybe maybe in five years it 'll work really well , postdoc f: ok . professor a: and and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so . postdoc f: i guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the on the earlier ones . professor a: uh - huh . i see . phd g: one of the um , just to add to this one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . i mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays . professor a: right . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . phd g: and so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd g: so i mean , i do n't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . we do n't have to go and search for them to to mark them at all , but , i mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , i 'd say put them in if possible . postdoc f: ok , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted . phd c: yeah . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor a: should we do the digits ? grad b: yep . ok . phd c: ok . grad d: mmm . alright .

the first test set of digits is complete and includes 4,000 lines , each comprising between 1-10 digits . new digits forms were distributed for eliciting different prosodic groupings of numbers . new naming conventions were discussed as means for facilitating the sorting process . existing files will be changed so that all filenames are of equal length . similar changes will be made to speaker identification tags . files will also contain information specifying channel , microphone , and broadcaster information .

what were the instructions for the transcribers ? </s> professor a: ok . grad b: ok we 're on and we seem to be working . phd c: yes . professor a: ok . grad b: we did n't crash we 're not crashing anymore phd c: one , two , three , four , f grad b: and it really bothers me . professor a: yeah ? phd c: no crashing . phd g: i do . i crashed when i started this morning . grad b: you crashed crashed this morning ? i did not crash this morning . phd c: yeah ? professor a: oh ! well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day . phd g: really ? yeah . maybe , yeah . professor a: first time first time in the day , you know . phd g: or maybe it 's once you 've done enough meetings { comment } it wo n't crash on you anymore . phd e: yeah . phd c: no ? postdoc f: yeah . phd g: it 's a matter of experience . phd e: yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: self - learning , yeah . professor a: that 's that 's great . phd g: yeah . professor a: uh . phd c: yeah . professor a: do we have an agenda ? liz liz and andreas ca n't sh ca n't uh , ca n't come . grad b: i do . professor a: so , they wo n't be here . grad b: i have agenda and it 's all me . phd g: did grad b: cuz no one sent me anything else . phd g: did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ? grad b: i have no idea but i just got it a few minutes ago . phd g: oh . grad b: right when you were in my office it arrived . phd g: oh . ok , cuz i checked my mail . i did n't have anything . grad b: so , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? i actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits . professor a: uh , right , so so i i was just gon na talk briefly about the nsf itr . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad b: oh , great . professor a: uh , and then , you have postdoc f: can w professor a: i mean , i wo n't say much , but { comment } uh , but then , uh , you said wan na talk about digits ? grad b: i have a short thing about digits and then uh i wan na talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . so maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who for whom it 's relevant . professor a: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i could always say something about transcription . i 've been but but uh , well professor a: well if we yeah , we should n't add things in just to add things in . i 'm actually pretty busy today , postdoc f: yeah . professor a: so if we can { comment } we postdoc f: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor a: a short meeting would be fine . postdoc f: this does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . that wo n't do . grad b: so the only thing i wan na say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . there are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were n't really read . so i wo n't really know until i go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . so i wa uh . two things . the first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? my opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . you know , the grouping is completely random , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: so it it 's perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set . postdoc f: oh ! by throw them out completely ? grad b: um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . so those are those are the two options . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: but there 's often things where people do false starts . i know i 've done it , where i say say a grad b: what the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , { comment } you extract the right string . phd g: oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did n't correct it ? phd e: yeah . grad b: yeah . and did n't notice . which happens in a few places . phd e: yeah . phd g: ah . phd c: yeah . grad b: so so postdoc f: well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ? grad b: correct . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: i get it . grad b: and so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then but then the transcript is n't the aurora test set anymore . i do n't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . and that would be a little easier . phd g: well how many are how how often does that happen ? grad b: mmm , five or six times . phd g: oh , so it 's not very much . grad b: no , it 's not much at all . phd g: seems like we should just change the transcripts phd e: yeah . grad b: ok . phd g: to match . professor a: yeah , it 's five or six times out of thousands ? phd c: yeah . grad b: four thousand . professor a: four thousand ? phd c: four thous ah ! four thousand . phd g: yeah , it 's professor a: yeah , i would , uh , tak do the easy way , phd g: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: ok . phd c: yeah . professor a: it it 's kinda nice i mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker - dependent things phd c: mmm . professor a: and so i think having having it all phd c: yeah . professor a: the speakers who we had is is at least interesting . phd g: so you um , how many digits have been transcribed now ? grad b: four thousand lines . and each line is between one and about ten digits . phd g: four thousand lines ? grad b: i did n't i did n't compute the average . i think the average was around four or five . professor a: so that 's a couple hours of of , uh , speech , probably . phd g: wow . grad b: yep . yep . professor a: which is a yeah reasonable reasonable test set . phd c: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . grad b: and , jane , i do have a set of forms which i think you have copies of somewhere . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah , true . grad b: oh you do ? oh ok , good , good . postdoc f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: yeah , i was just wond i thought i had had all of them back from you . and then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gon na read later , were suggested by liz postdoc f: no , not yet . grad b: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . and so , uh , i just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: eight eight two two two nine . grad b: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it . professor a: i see . and the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the the numerics . grad b: uh , yes , although we could switch it back . the problem was o and zero . although we could switch it back and tell them always to say `` zero `` or always to say `` o `` . postdoc f: oh professor a: or neither . phd c: yeah . professor a: but it 's just two thing ways that you can say it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: right ? grad b: sure . postdoc f: oh . professor a: um um , phd e: yeah . professor a: that 's the only thought i have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr she 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it there 's there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way . grad b: right . professor a: i mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way . grad b: the the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . i mean i 'm speaking for her since she 's not here . professor a: yeah . grad b: but , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , { comment } they might say forty - three instead of four three . phd e: yeah . phd g: mmm . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , if there 's space , though , between them . i mean , you can with when you space them out they do n't look like , uh , forty - three anymore . phd e: yeah . grad b: well , she and i were talking about it , professor a: yeah . grad b: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking . professor a: she 's right . it 's it it 's a different problem . i mean it 's a it 's a it 's an interesting problem i mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people if you say s `` three nine eight one `` sometimes people will say `` thirty - nine eighty - one `` or `` three hundred three hundred eighty - nine one `` , or i do n't think they 'd say that , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but th grad b: not very frequently professor a: no grad b: but , they certainly could . professor a: but yeah . uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it . grad b: so . i mean , this is something that liz and i spoke about professor a: but i see . grad b: and , since this was something that liz asked for specifically , i think we need to defer to her . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . professor a: ok . well , we 're probably gon na be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wan na do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions , grad b: do something different , professor a: but this is the next suggestion , grad b: yeah . professor a: so . ok . ok , so uh e l i guess , let me , uh , get my my short thing out about the nsf . i sent this actually this is maybe a little side thing . um , i i sent to what i thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was `` m mtg rcdr hyphen joint `` . grad b: it was . joint . yep . professor a: but then i got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to grad b: it 's that 's because they set the one up at uw postdoc f: grad b: that 's not on our side , that 's on the u - dub { comment } side . professor a: oh . grad b: and so u - uw set it up as a moderated list . postdoc f: yeah . professor a: oh , ok . grad b: and , i have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wan na mail to mari professor a: no no , th i got i got , uh , little excited notes from mari and jeff and so on , grad b: and professor a: so it 's grad b: ok , good . professor a: yeah . grad b: so the moderator actually did repost it . professor a: yeah . grad b: cuz i had sent one earlier actually the same thing happened to me i had sent one earlier . the message says , `` you 'll be informed `` and then i was never informed but i got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so . professor a: right . grad b: it 's just to prevent spam . professor a: i see . yeah so o ok . well , anyway , i guess everybody here are y are you are on that list , right ? so you got the note ? phd g: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah ? ok . phd g: yeah . professor a: um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on on more more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from i guess higher level from my point of view . uh , and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh so is i for it was a proposal for the itr program , uh , information technology research program 's part of national science foundation . it 's the second year of their doing , uh , these grants . they 're they 're a lot of them are some of them anyway , are larger larger grants than the usual , small nsf grants , and . so , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we we , uh , got through that . and so th the the next phase will be we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . and i 'm i i hope to be doing very little of it . and uh , which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . so . grad b: when 's when 's the full proposal due ? professor a: uh , i think april ninth , or something . so it 's about a month . phd e: p s professor a: um grad b: yep . and they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms , phd g: u grad b: is that phd g: tomorrow . professor a: tomorrow . march second , i said . phd e: tomorrow ? grad b: i 've been a day off all week . phd c: tomorrow . phd e: yeah . grad b: i guess that 's a good thing cuz that way i got my papers done early . phd g: it would be interesting professor a: so that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting ! grad b: it is . it is actually quite amazing . phd e: yeah . phd g: it 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments . professor a: yeah . yeah . my favorite is was when when when one reviewer says , uh , `` you know , this should be far more detailed `` , and the nex the next reviewer says , `` you know , there 's way too much detail `` . grad b: yep . or `` this is way too general `` , and the other reviewer says , `` this is way too specific `` . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: `` this is way too hard `` , `` way too easy `` . professor a: we 'll see . maybe there 'll be something useful . and and , uh grad b: well it sounded like they they the first gate was pretty easy . is that right ? that they did n't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ? professor a: do you know anything about the numbers ? grad b: no . just just th phd g: it 's just from his message it sounded like that . phd e: yeah . yeah . i said something , yeah . phd g: gary strong 's professor a: i phd g: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs phd e: yeah . phd g: i professor a: i should go back and look . i did n't i do n't think that 's true . grad b: yeah , ok . phd g: mmm . he said the next phase 'll be very , competitive phd e: very very , phd g: because we did n't want to weed out much in the first phase . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor a: well we 'll have to see what the numbers are . grad b: or something like that , phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: so . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . but they they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . professor a: so , uh , you know , maybe they did n't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's it 's usually a pretty but it yeah . it 's it 's certainly not i 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left . grad b: right . professor a: i 'm sure it 's , you know grad b: how how many awards are there , do you know ? professor a: well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size they have three size grants . this one there 's , um see the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , i forget , i think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . and and we 're in the middle middle category . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: i think we 're , uh , uh , i forget what it was . but , um uh , i do n't remember , but it 's pr probably along the li i i could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or that they 'll fund , or twenty . i mean when they do you do you know how many they funded when they f in in chuck 's , that he got last year ? phd g: i do n't i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad b: i thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , was n't it ? professor a: well they fund phd g: i i 'm professor a: they phd g: i do n't remember . professor a: yeah . i mean grad b: uh it does n't matter , we 'll find out one way or another . professor a: yeah . i mean last time i think they just had two categories , small and big , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll there 'll be more of them that they fund than of the big . phd g: if we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to icsi in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ? professor a: uh . grad b: exactly what we say in the proposal . phd g: i i mean uh which part is icsi though . professor a: you know , it i none of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about . phd g: i mean dang ! professor a: um , well , no , i mean it 's u it phd g: it 's just for the research to continue the research on the meeting recorder stuff ? professor a: it 's extending the research , right ? because the other phd g: yeah . grad b: yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for meeting recorder . professor a: yeah . yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with communicator uh , especially with the newer things with the more acoustically - oriented things are are are are lower level . and , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of of , um , the conversation of mapping the conversations phd g: mm - hmm . right , right . professor a: to different kind of planes . so . um . but , um . so it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's so it 's it would be new . phd g: so assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gon na hafta , hire more students , or , something ? professor a: well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and uh . yeah , there there would be there would be new hires , and and there there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always for everybody there 's there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so , phd g: right . professor a: there 's there 's a continual need to to bring in new things . phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd g: right . professor a: but but there definitely would be new new new , uh , students , phd g: i see . professor a: and so forth , both at at uw and here . grad b: are there any students in your class who are expressing interest ? professor a: um , not clear yet . not clear yet . grad b: other than the one who 's already here . professor a: i mean we got we have yeah , two of them are two in the c there 're two in the class already here , and then and and , uh uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh but he he he wo n't be in the country that long , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and , maybe another will end up . grad b: yep . professor a: actually there is one other guy who 's looking that that 's that guy , uh , jeremy ? { comment } i think . phd c: mm - hmm . professor a: anyway , yeah that 's that 's all i was gon na say is that that that 's you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in in march in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know we 'll see what happens . uh , the last one was that you had there , { comment } was about naming ? grad b: yep . it just , uh we 've been cutting up sound files , in for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . and liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that has n't really been resolved about naming . so , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . um , phd c: yeah . grad b: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . and that 's easy enough to do . and i do n't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . so that means , uh , instead of calling it `` mr one `` , `` mr two `` , you 'd call it `` mrm zero zero one `` , `` mrm zero zero two `` , things like that . just so that they 're they 're all the same length . postdoc f: but , you know , when you , do things like that you can always as long as you have uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string . grad b: the problem is that they 're a lot of fields . postdoc f: you know , so `` zero zero two `` grad b: alright , postdoc f: yeah . grad b: so we we have th we 're gon na have the speaker id , the session , uh uh , information on the microphones , postdoc f: yeah , well , your example was really grad b: information on the speak on the channels and all that . phd c: uh - huh . postdoc f: i grad b: and so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier . postdoc f: ok . grad d: she wanted to keep them the same lengths across different meetings also . so like , the nsa meeting lengths , { comment } all filenames are gon na be the same length as the meeting recorder meeting names ? grad b: yep . and as i said , the it 's we just do n't have that many that that 's a big deal . phd g: cuz of digits . grad b: and so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . and when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming . postdoc f: i i would think though that the transcribe the transcripts themselves would n't need to have such lengthy names . grad b: right . postdoc f: so , i mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff , grad b: right . so the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names , postdoc f: so , it 's a different set . grad b: i would change them to match . so instead of being mr one it would be mrm zero zero one . but i do n't think that 's a big deal . postdoc f: fine . fine . grad b: so for for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting i ds . uh , for speakers , m or f and then three numbers , for , uh and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . we want some way of specifying , more than looking in the `` key `` file , what channel and what mike . what channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . or i do n't know how to s say it . so i mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w as a wireless . phd c: yeah . phd e: yep . grad b: and you know that one is a different headset and different channel . and so we just need some naming conventions on that . phd c: yeah . grad b: and , uh , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: that 's gon na become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . we have some new microphones that i 'd like to start trying out , um , once i test them . and then we 'll we 'll need to specify that somewhere . so i was just gon na do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types . phd c: yeah . grad b: so , as i said phd e: ok . phd g: that sounds good . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , since we have such a short agenda list i guess i wi i will ask how how are the transcriptions going ? yeah . postdoc f: the the news is that i 've i uh s so in s um so i 've switched to start my new sentence . i i switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the uh , tighter time bins for partly for use in thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . and , um , i discovered in the process a couple of of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . and i and i wanted to maybe ask , uh , chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . maybe i was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . and i i have a script , i can piece them together . i mean , so it 's like , i i know that i can take them apart and put them together and i 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of of , uh , utterances to check through . phd c: yeah . professor a: i 'm a little confused . i thought that that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than than , uh , the the other transcription , uh , thing was that that we were using the mixed file . postdoc f: oh , yes . ok . but , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers . professor a: mm - hmm . yeah . postdoc f: so someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: and for purposes of of , uh , things like well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that . professor a: ok . postdoc f: and w and w and , you know , is a it would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , i 've th the so , i i do n't know exactly where that 's going at this point . but m i was experimenting with doing this by hand and i really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that does n't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: um , i did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: as you might expect , professor a: sure . postdoc f: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . and if we 're gon na study types of overlaps , which is what i wan na do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening { comment } to every single channel all the way through the entire { comment } length for all the different speakers . now , for only four speakers , that 's not gon na be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . so it 's li you know , kind of wondering and i think again it 's like this it 's really valuable that thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting . phd e: yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem i think . uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so . postdoc f: ok . well so then then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: just so that they 're they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: cuz there are large s spaces of the that 's a good point . there are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . someone 's giving a presentation , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: or whatever . that 's that 's a good that 's a good thought . and , um , let 's see , there was one other thing i was gon na say . i i think it 's really interesting data to work with , i have to say , it 's very enjoyable . i really , not not a problem spending time with these data . really interesting . and not just because i 'm in there . no , it 's real interesting . professor a: uh , well i think it 's a short meeting . uh , you 're you 're you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , i assume , phd c: is true . postdoc f: professor a: and phd c: i have n't results , eh , yet professor a: yeah . phd c: but , eh , i i 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , { comment } after the the last experience . professor a: yeah . yeah . phd c: and and i 'm tried to to , uh , adjust the to to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , i i implement . professor a: yeah . phd c: but i have problem because , eh , i get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , harmonic possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now i 'm i 'm i 'm trying to to find , eh , some kind of a , um of h of help , eh , using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics , and and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . and , eh , i have to to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because i have , eh , an algorithm , and , i get , mmm , eh , t t results similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that i i am following . but , eh , the the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics , is does n't work well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: and i i i i not sure that i eh , the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is right , or it 's it 's not right . eh , professor a: yeah . phd c: i have n't enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened . professor a: yeah , i 'd like to talk with you about it . if if if , uh if i do n't have enough time and y you wan na discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be stephane . phd c: yeah . i talked with stephane and and thilo professor a: yeah and and thilo , yeah . phd c: and , professor a: yeah , but phd c: they nnn they they { comment } they did n't phd e: i 'm not too experienced with harmonics professor a: i see . phd c: they think that { comment } the experience is not enough to phd e: and phd g: is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? phd c: no , no it 's no no . no . phd g: and then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy professor a: yeah , that 's wh phd c: no . i i i i do n't proth process the the fundamental . i i , ehm i calculate the the phase derivate using the fft . professor a: yeah . phd c: and the algorithm said that , eh , if you if you change the the the , eh , nnn the x - the frequency `` x `` , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics , eh , professor a: uh - huh . phd c: the errors of peaks the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around these , eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic . and , eh , if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency , eh , of the of the , eh , continuous , eh , eh , filters , that , eh that , eh , they used eh , to to to get , eh , the the instantaneous frequency , professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: it probably too , you can find , eh , that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous , eh , eh the output of the continuous filters are very near . and in my case i in equal with our signal , it does n't happened . professor a: yeah . i 'd hafta look at that and think about it . phd c: and professor a: it 's it 's it 's i have n't worked with that either so i 'm not sure the way the simple - minded way i suggested was what chuck was just saying , is that you could make a a sieve . you know , y you actually say that here is phd c: yeah . professor a: let 's let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and and , uh , maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by by uh , making some guesses , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but uh uh uh , i would , uh i mean you could make some guesses from , uh from the auto - correlation or something but but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency , and and see how much of the take the one that 's maximum . call that the phd c: yeah . professor a: but phd c: using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency . professor a: of all the harmonics of that . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd g: do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ? phd c: i do n't use . phd g: or phd c: but , i i know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to to to get , eh , the pitch . professor a: no . to get the pitch , yes . phd c: i do n't use . to get the pitch , yes . phd e: to get the pitch , yeah . phd c: but the harmonic , no . phd g: but i but the harmonics are gon na be , uh , uh , i do n't know what the right word is . um , they 're gon na be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? the response of the vocal tract . professor a: yeah ? phd c: yeah ? phd g: and so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics , is that gon na ? professor a: well so the thing is that the this is for , uh , a , um phd g: i m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . right ? phd e: yeah . phd g: and just look at the at at the signal coming out of the glottis . professor a: yeah . uh , well , yeah that 'd be good . phd c: yeah . professor a: but , uh but i but but i do n't know that you need to grad b: open wide ! professor a: but i do n't need you know if you need to get rid of it . i mean that 'd that 'd be nice but i do n't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . um , i mean cuz i think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying phd g: uh - huh . professor a: wha what are you doing this for ? you 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh where where there are more than uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker . grad b: sorry . professor a: so if there 's more than one speaker , um yeah i guess you could i guess yeah you 're so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so so , i if you do n't if you do n't care about that phd c: yeah . professor a: see , if you also wan na just determine if you also wan na determine whether it 's unvoiced , then i think you want to look look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gon na be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced . phd g: yeah . professor a: but , i i uh i mean i i but , um , other than that i guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be primarily a low frequency phenomenon . and if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gon na there 's gon na be a spectral slope . the higher frequencies will be lower energy . but so what . i mean that 's that 's w phd c: i will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and will will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , i have n't enough feeling to to u many time to to understand what happened with the with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and i i see the harmonics there many time but , eh , there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , i have to discover what what is the the w the best way to to { comment } to { comment } c to use them professor a: well , but yeah i do n't think you can i mean you 're not gon na be able to look at every frame , so i mean i i mean i i really i i really thought that the best way to do it , and i 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , my impression was that the best way to do it was however you you 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . { comment } however you 've come up you with your candidates , you wan na see how much of the energy is in that phd c: yeah . yeah . professor a: as coppo as opposed to all of the all the total energy . and , um , if it 's voiced , i guess so so y i think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . but if it 's voiced , phd c: yeah . professor a: um , and the , uh e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be then it 's more likely to be an overlap . phd c: is height . yeah . this this is the idea the idea i i i had to to compare the the ratio of the the energy of the harmonics with the eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to to distinguish between overlapping and speech . mmm . professor a: but you 're looking a y you 're looking at let 's take a second with this . uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in in , uh , what domain ? i mean this is this is in in in in bands ? or or phd c: no , no , no . professor a: just just overall phd c: it 's a it 's a o i w the band the band is , eh , from zero to to four kilohertz . and i i ot i professor a: and you just take the instantaneous frequency ? phd c: yeah . i u m t i i used two m two method two methods . eh , one , eh , based on the f eh , ftt . to fft to to obtain the or to study the harmonics from from the spectrum directly , professor a: yeah . phd c: and to study the energy and the multiples of professor a: yeah . phd c: frequency . and another another algorithm i have is the in the instantaneous frequency , based on on on the fft to to to calculate the the phase derivate in the time . eh , uh n the d i mean i i have two two algorithms . professor a: right . phd c: but , eh , in m i in my opinion the the the instantaneous frequency , the the the behavior , eh , was th it was very interesting . because i i saw eh , how the spectrum concentrate , eh , professor a: oh ! phd c: around the the harmonic . but then when i apply the the rule , eh , of the in the the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the the near filter , the the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper does n't work . and i do n't know why . professor a: but the instantaneous frequency , would n't that give you something more like the central frequency of the you know , of the where most of the energy is ? i mean , i think if you does i does it why would it correspond to pitch ? phd c: yeah . i i i not sure . i i i try to to professor a: yeah . phd c: when first i i calculate , eh , using the fft , postdoc f: di - digital camera . phd c: the the grad b: keep forgetting . phd c: i get the the spectrum , professor a: yeah . phd c: and i represent all the frequency . professor a: yeah . phd c: and when ou i obtained the instantaneous frequency . and i change the the the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here . professor a: oh , so you scale you s you do a a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous phd c: i use yeah . professor a: it 's a kinda normalization . phd c: yeah . yeah . because when when professor a: ok . phd c: eh , when i i i use these these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different . professor a: yeah . phd c: and i observe more more or less , thing like this . and the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics . professor a: i see . huh . phd c: but , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the in the because to to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a hanning window . professor a: yeah . phd c: and , they said that , eh , if these peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . but , eh , phh ! i do n't i i i i don i i and i do n't know what is the what is the distance . and i tried to to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , pfff ! and i i not sure what happened . professor a: ok , yeah well i i guess i 'm not following it enough . i 'll { comment } probably gon na hafta look at the paper , but which i 'm not gon na have time to do in the next few days , but but i 'm i 'm curious about it . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , uh , ok . postdoc f: i i did i it did occur to me that this is uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing i wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . so , i wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . and the reason i ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some i had the indication from dan ellis in the email that i sent to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe and i was i i do n't know , i mean we had this an and i did n't could n't get back to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation , professor a: i do n't know think it 'd be ideal . postdoc f: cuz phd g: uh - uh . professor a: we - see , we 're we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible phd e: yeah . professor a: and breaths are part of real speech . postdoc f: well , except that these are really truly i mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one i did n the first one that i did for i for this , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like as if we 're you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like it 's like professor a: yeah . postdoc f: i y i i mean , breath is natural , but not professor a: it is but it is if you record it . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: except that we 're we 're trying to mimic oh , i see what you 're saying . you 're saying that the pda application would have uh , have to cope with breath . professor a: yeah . grad b: well phd e: no . postdoc f: but phd g: an - any application may have to . grad b: the p d a might not have to , phd e: no i grad b: but more people than just pda users are interested in this corpus . phd e: yeah . grad b: so so mean you 're right postdoc f: ok , then the then i have two questions . grad b: we could remove it , postdoc f: yeah ? grad b: but i i think we do n't wan na w remove it from the corpus , in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there . professor a: yeah . if it gets postdoc f: ok , so maybe the question is notating it . yeah ? professor a: yeah i right . if if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wan na have some method which will allow you to block it , but you it 's real data . you do n't wan na b but you do n't postdoc f: ok , well professor a: if s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even and we have the f uh the uh the the fan and the in the projector up there , and , uh , this is it 's this is actual stuff that we we wan na work with . postdoc f: well this is in very interesting professor a: so . postdoc f: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . and once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . ok , so now , i had a discussion with chuck about the data structure professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . you know , like , don 's been writing scripts professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . discourse side will have this this side over he the we we 'll have a s ch sorry , not being very fluent here . but , um , this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . ok . so then the then let 's let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . so what i would r r what i would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? could we get a breath detector ? grad b: oh , just to save the transcribers time . postdoc f: well , i mean , you just have no idea . i mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute , grad b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time . grad b: mm - hmm . phd e: oops . professor a: wh - what phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and you wan na be sure it 's used , and you wan na be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal . professor a: what if you put it in but did n't put the boundaries ? postdoc f: well , but professor a: so you just know it 's between these other things , postdoc f: well , ok . so now there 's there 's another another possibility professor a: right ? postdoc f: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words { comment } from nonwords . and that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient . professor a: yeah i mean i 'm think if it 's too if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , we are gon na be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if so , we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath - in `` or `` breath - out `` , the models will learn that sort of thing . uh , so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are . so postdoc f: ok . but that would maybe include a pause as well , phd g: well , there 's a there 's postdoc f: and that would n't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? professor a: yeah , i you know there is there 's this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . basically the more we can mark the better . but if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this although i i i 'd be interested to h get get input from liz and andreas on this to see if they cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in in , uh , uh , their transcripts . grad b: they have lots of experience with breathing ? phd g: i professor a: actually well , yes they do , but we we can handle that without them here . but but but , uh , you were gon na say something about phd g: yeah , i i think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gon na transcribe , u th they 're gon na transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . if there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that . phd e: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: that 's what they 've been doing . so , within an overlap segment , they they do this . phd g: right . but right . but if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , do n't do n't worry about that . phd e: yeah . phd g: so what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um so for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . but outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that was n't transcribed . so you just somebody ca n't rely on that data and say `` that 's perfectly clean data `` . uh do you see what i 'm saying ? postdoc f: yeah , you 're saying it 's uncharted territory . phd g: so i would say do n't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words . professor a: that sounds like a reasonable reasonable compromise . phd e: yeah , and that 's that that quite co corresponds to the way i i try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as i really try to not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with which are just in in a silence region . professor a: yeah . phd e: and they so they hopefully wo n't be marked in in those channel - specific files . professor a: u i i wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes . phd e: but phd g: yeah , so postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: see , in a in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a it 's not just a minor part . in fact , the i think i would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . so it 's critical it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . that 's our problem . if we had nothing postdoc f: yeah . professor a: if we had only linguistically - relevant things if if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we we did n't have noise , we did n't have convolutional errors , we did n't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i is n't that bad right now . i mean you can you know it 's it 's the technology 's come along pretty well . phd c: yeah . professor a: the the the reason we still complain about it is because is when when you have more realistic conditions then then things fall apart . postdoc f: ok , fair enough . i guess , um , i uh , what i was wondering is what what at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? because if it were likely that a pda would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it would n't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to professor a: but that 's a research question , you know ? and so postdoc f: yeah , well , see and that 's what i would n't know . professor a: that and we do n't either . i mean so so the thing is it 's it right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so we do n't wan na presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . so , you know , an and maybe maybe in five years it 'll work really well , postdoc f: ok . professor a: and and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so . postdoc f: i guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the on the earlier ones . professor a: uh - huh . i see . phd g: one of the um , just to add to this one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . i mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays . professor a: right . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . phd g: and so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd g: so i mean , i do n't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . we do n't have to go and search for them to to mark them at all , but , i mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , i 'd say put them in if possible . postdoc f: ok , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted . phd c: yeah . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor a: should we do the digits ? grad b: yep . ok . phd c: ok . grad d: mmm . alright .

the transcribers should only code audible breaths within a grouping of words , and not outside regions of continuous speech . it was further determined that audible breaths are an important facet of recorded speech , and that removing them from the corpus would be contrary to the aims of the project . speaker mn005 will prepare his results for detecting speaker overlap and present them in the next meeting .

what problems were encountered with transcriptions ? </s> professor a: ok . grad b: ok we 're on and we seem to be working . phd c: yes . professor a: ok . grad b: we did n't crash we 're not crashing anymore phd c: one , two , three , four , f grad b: and it really bothers me . professor a: yeah ? phd c: no crashing . phd g: i do . i crashed when i started this morning . grad b: you crashed crashed this morning ? i did not crash this morning . phd c: yeah ? professor a: oh ! well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day . phd g: really ? yeah . maybe , yeah . professor a: first time first time in the day , you know . phd g: or maybe it 's once you 've done enough meetings { comment } it wo n't crash on you anymore . phd e: yeah . phd c: no ? postdoc f: yeah . phd g: it 's a matter of experience . phd e: yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: self - learning , yeah . professor a: that 's that 's great . phd g: yeah . professor a: uh . phd c: yeah . professor a: do we have an agenda ? liz liz and andreas ca n't sh ca n't uh , ca n't come . grad b: i do . professor a: so , they wo n't be here . grad b: i have agenda and it 's all me . phd g: did grad b: cuz no one sent me anything else . phd g: did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ? grad b: i have no idea but i just got it a few minutes ago . phd g: oh . grad b: right when you were in my office it arrived . phd g: oh . ok , cuz i checked my mail . i did n't have anything . grad b: so , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? i actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits . professor a: uh , right , so so i i was just gon na talk briefly about the nsf itr . phd c: mm - hmm . yeah . grad b: oh , great . professor a: uh , and then , you have postdoc f: can w professor a: i mean , i wo n't say much , but { comment } uh , but then , uh , you said wan na talk about digits ? grad b: i have a short thing about digits and then uh i wan na talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . so maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who for whom it 's relevant . professor a: right . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: i could always say something about transcription . i 've been but but uh , well professor a: well if we yeah , we should n't add things in just to add things in . i 'm actually pretty busy today , postdoc f: yeah . professor a: so if we can { comment } we postdoc f: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor a: a short meeting would be fine . postdoc f: this does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . that wo n't do . grad b: so the only thing i wan na say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . there are probably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that were n't really read . so i wo n't really know until i go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . so i wa uh . two things . the first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? my opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . you know , the grouping is completely random , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: so it it 's perfectly fine to put a a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set . postdoc f: oh ! by throw them out completely ? grad b: um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . so those are those are the two options . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: but there 's often things where people do false starts . i know i 've done it , where i say say a grad b: what the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , { comment } you extract the right string . phd g: oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and did n't correct it ? phd e: yeah . grad b: yeah . and did n't notice . which happens in a few places . phd e: yeah . phd g: ah . phd c: yeah . grad b: so so postdoc f: well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ? grad b: correct . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: i get it . grad b: and so the the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then but then the transcript is n't the aurora test set anymore . i do n't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . and that would be a little easier . phd g: well how many are how how often does that happen ? grad b: mmm , five or six times . phd g: oh , so it 's not very much . grad b: no , it 's not much at all . phd g: seems like we should just change the transcripts phd e: yeah . grad b: ok . phd g: to match . professor a: yeah , it 's five or six times out of thousands ? phd c: yeah . grad b: four thousand . professor a: four thousand ? phd c: four thous ah ! four thousand . phd g: yeah , it 's professor a: yeah , i would , uh , tak do the easy way , phd g: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: ok . phd c: yeah . professor a: it it 's kinda nice i mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on on speaker - dependent things phd c: mmm . professor a: and so i think having having it all phd c: yeah . professor a: the speakers who we had is is at least interesting . phd g: so you um , how many digits have been transcribed now ? grad b: four thousand lines . and each line is between one and about ten digits . phd g: four thousand lines ? grad b: i did n't i did n't compute the average . i think the average was around four or five . professor a: so that 's a couple hours of of , uh , speech , probably . phd g: wow . grad b: yep . yep . professor a: which is a yeah reasonable reasonable test set . phd c: mm - hmm . phd g: mm - hmm . grad b: and , jane , i do have a set of forms which i think you have copies of somewhere . postdoc f: mm - hmm . yeah , true . grad b: oh you do ? oh ok , good , good . postdoc f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad b: yeah , i was just wond i thought i had had all of them back from you . and then the other thing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gon na read later , were suggested by liz postdoc f: no , not yet . grad b: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . and so , uh , i just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructions phd c: mm - hmm . phd e: eight eight two two two nine . grad b: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it . professor a: i see . and the decision here , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the the numerics . grad b: uh , yes , although we could switch it back . the problem was o and zero . although we could switch it back and tell them always to say `` zero `` or always to say `` o `` . postdoc f: oh professor a: or neither . phd c: yeah . professor a: but it 's just two thing ways that you can say it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: right ? grad b: sure . postdoc f: oh . professor a: um um , phd e: yeah . professor a: that 's the only thought i have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr she 's trying to get at natural groupings , but it there 's there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way . grad b: right . professor a: i mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see it this way . grad b: the the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . i mean i 'm speaking for her since she 's not here . professor a: yeah . grad b: but , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , { comment } they might say forty - three instead of four three . phd e: yeah . phd g: mmm . phd c: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: well , if there 's space , though , between them . i mean , you can with when you space them out they do n't look like , uh , forty - three anymore . phd e: yeah . grad b: well , she and i were talking about it , professor a: yeah . grad b: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking . professor a: she 's right . it 's it it 's a different problem . i mean it 's a it 's a it 's an interesting problem i mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people if you say s `` three nine eight one `` sometimes people will say `` thirty - nine eighty - one `` or `` three hundred three hundred eighty - nine one `` , or i do n't think they 'd say that , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but th grad b: not very frequently professor a: no grad b: but , they certainly could . professor a: but yeah . uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it . grad b: so . i mean , this is something that liz and i spoke about professor a: but i see . grad b: and , since this was something that liz asked for specifically , i think we need to defer to her . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: yeah . professor a: ok . well , we 're probably gon na be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wan na do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions , grad b: do something different , professor a: but this is the next suggestion , grad b: yeah . professor a: so . ok . ok , so uh e l i guess , let me , uh , get my my short thing out about the nsf . i sent this actually this is maybe a little side thing . um , i i sent to what i thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was `` m mtg rcdr hyphen joint `` . grad b: it was . joint . yep . professor a: but then i got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to grad b: it 's that 's because they set the one up at uw postdoc f: grad b: that 's not on our side , that 's on the u - dub { comment } side . professor a: oh . grad b: and so u - uw set it up as a moderated list . postdoc f: yeah . professor a: oh , ok . grad b: and , i have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might just wan na mail to mari professor a: no no , th i got i got , uh , little excited notes from mari and jeff and so on , grad b: and professor a: so it 's grad b: ok , good . professor a: yeah . grad b: so the moderator actually did repost it . professor a: yeah . grad b: cuz i had sent one earlier actually the same thing happened to me i had sent one earlier . the message says , `` you 'll be informed `` and then i was never informed but i got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so . professor a: right . grad b: it 's just to prevent spam . professor a: i see . yeah so o ok . well , anyway , i guess everybody here are y are you are on that list , right ? so you got the note ? phd g: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah ? ok . phd g: yeah . professor a: um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on on more more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from i guess higher level from my point of view . uh , and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh so is i for it was a proposal for the itr program , uh , information technology research program 's part of national science foundation . it 's the second year of their doing , uh , these grants . they 're they 're a lot of them are some of them anyway , are larger larger grants than the usual , small nsf grants , and . so , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we we , uh , got through that . and so th the the next phase will be we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . and i 'm i i hope to be doing very little of it . and uh , which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . so . grad b: when 's when 's the full proposal due ? professor a: uh , i think april ninth , or something . so it 's about a month . phd e: p s professor a: um grad b: yep . and they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms , phd g: u grad b: is that phd g: tomorrow . professor a: tomorrow . march second , i said . phd e: tomorrow ? grad b: i 've been a day off all week . phd c: tomorrow . phd e: yeah . grad b: i guess that 's a good thing cuz that way i got my papers done early . phd g: it would be interesting professor a: so that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting ! grad b: it is . it is actually quite amazing . phd e: yeah . phd g: it 'll be interesting to see the reviewer 's comments . professor a: yeah . yeah . my favorite is was when when when one reviewer says , uh , `` you know , this should be far more detailed `` , and the nex the next reviewer says , `` you know , there 's way too much detail `` . grad b: yep . or `` this is way too general `` , and the other reviewer says , `` this is way too specific `` . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . phd c: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad b: `` this is way too hard `` , `` way too easy `` . professor a: we 'll see . maybe there 'll be something useful . and and , uh grad b: well it sounded like they they the first gate was pretty easy . is that right ? that they did n't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ? professor a: do you know anything about the numbers ? grad b: no . just just th phd g: it 's just from his message it sounded like that . phd e: yeah . yeah . i said something , yeah . phd g: gary strong 's professor a: i phd g: there was a sentence at the end of one of his paragraphs phd e: yeah . phd g: i professor a: i should go back and look . i did n't i do n't think that 's true . grad b: yeah , ok . phd g: mmm . he said the next phase 'll be very , competitive phd e: very very , phd g: because we did n't want to weed out much in the first phase . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor a: well we 'll have to see what the numbers are . grad b: or something like that , phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: so . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . but they they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . professor a: so , uh , you know , maybe they did n't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's it 's usually a pretty but it yeah . it 's it 's certainly not i 'm sure that it 's not down to one in two or something of what 's left . grad b: right . professor a: i 'm sure it 's , you know grad b: how how many awards are there , do you know ? professor a: well there 's different numbers of w awards for different size they have three size grants . this one there 's , um see the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have a fair number of them . um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , i forget , i think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . and and we 're in the middle middle category . grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: i think we 're , uh , uh , i forget what it was . but , um uh , i do n't remember , but it 's pr probably along the li i i could be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or that they 'll fund , or twenty . i mean when they do you do you know how many they funded when they f in in chuck 's , that he got last year ? phd g: i do n't i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad b: i thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , was n't it ? professor a: well they fund phd g: i i 'm professor a: they phd g: i do n't remember . professor a: yeah . i mean grad b: uh it does n't matter , we 'll find out one way or another . professor a: yeah . i mean last time i think they just had two categories , small and big , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll there 'll be more of them that they fund than of the big . phd g: if we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to icsi in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ? professor a: uh . grad b: exactly what we say in the proposal . phd g: i i mean uh which part is icsi though . professor a: you know , it i none of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about . phd g: i mean dang ! professor a: um , well , no , i mean it 's u it phd g: it 's just for the research to continue the research on the meeting recorder stuff ? professor a: it 's extending the research , right ? because the other phd g: yeah . grad b: yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for meeting recorder . professor a: yeah . yeah the other things that we have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with communicator uh , especially with the newer things with the more acoustically - oriented things are are are are lower level . and , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of of , um , the conversation of mapping the conversations phd g: mm - hmm . right , right . professor a: to different kind of planes . so . um . but , um . so it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's so it 's it would be new . phd g: so assuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gon na hafta , hire more students , or , something ? professor a: well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and uh . yeah , there there would be there would be new hires , and and there there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always for everybody there 's there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so , phd g: right . professor a: there 's there 's a continual need to to bring in new things . phd c: mm - hmm . grad b: yep . phd g: right . professor a: but but there definitely would be new new new , uh , students , phd g: i see . professor a: and so forth , both at at uw and here . grad b: are there any students in your class who are expressing interest ? professor a: um , not clear yet . not clear yet . grad b: other than the one who 's already here . professor a: i mean we got we have yeah , two of them are two in the c there 're two in the class already here , and then and and , uh uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh but he he he wo n't be in the country that long , grad b: mm - hmm . professor a: and , maybe another will end up . grad b: yep . professor a: actually there is one other guy who 's looking that that 's that guy , uh , jeremy ? { comment } i think . phd c: mm - hmm . professor a: anyway , yeah that 's that 's all i was gon na say is that that that 's you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step , and , it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in in march in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know we 'll see what happens . uh , the last one was that you had there , { comment } was about naming ? grad b: yep . it just , uh we 've been cutting up sound files , in for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . and liz had some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that has n't really been resolved about naming . so , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that sorting is easier . um , phd c: yeah . grad b: same number of characters so that when you 're sorting filenames you can easily extract out bits and pieces that you want . and that 's easy enough to do . and i do n't think we have so many meetings that that 's a big deal just to change the names . so that means , uh , instead of calling it `` mr one `` , `` mr two `` , you 'd call it `` mrm zero zero one `` , `` mrm zero zero two `` , things like that . just so that they 're they 're all the same length . postdoc f: but , you know , when you , do things like that you can always as long as you have uh , you can always search from the beginning or the end of the string . grad b: the problem is that they 're a lot of fields . postdoc f: you know , so `` zero zero two `` grad b: alright , postdoc f: yeah . grad b: so we we have th we 're gon na have the speaker id , the session , uh uh , information on the microphones , postdoc f: yeah , well , your example was really grad b: information on the speak on the channels and all that . phd c: uh - huh . postdoc f: i grad b: and so if each one of those is a fixed length , the sorting becomes a lot easier . postdoc f: ok . grad d: she wanted to keep them the same lengths across different meetings also . so like , the nsa meeting lengths , { comment } all filenames are gon na be the same length as the meeting recorder meeting names ? grad b: yep . and as i said , the it 's we just do n't have that many that that 's a big deal . phd g: cuz of digits . grad b: and so , uh , um , at some point we have to sort of take a few days off , let the transcribers have a few days off , make sure no one 's touching the data and reorganize the file structures . and when we do that we can also rationalize some of the naming . postdoc f: i i would think though that the transcribe the transcripts themselves would n't need to have such lengthy names . grad b: right . postdoc f: so , i mean , you 're dealing with a different domain there , and with start and end times and all that , and channels and stuff , grad b: right . so the only thing that would change with that is just the directory names , postdoc f: so , it 's a different set . grad b: i would change them to match . so instead of being mr one it would be mrm zero zero one . but i do n't think that 's a big deal . postdoc f: fine . fine . grad b: so for for m the meetings we were thinking about three letters and three numbers for meeting i ds . uh , for speakers , m or f and then three numbers , for , uh and , uh , that also brings up the point that we have to start assembling a speaker database so that we get those links back and forth and keep it consistent . um , and then , uh , the microphone issues . we want some way of specifying , more than looking in the `` key `` file , what channel and what mike . what channel , what mike , and what broadcaster . or i do n't know how to s say it . so i mean with this one it 's this particular headset with this particular transmitter w as a wireless . phd c: yeah . phd e: yep . grad b: and you know that one is a different headset and different channel . and so we just need some naming conventions on that . phd c: yeah . grad b: and , uh , phd c: uh - huh . grad b: that 's gon na become especially important once we start changing the microphone set - up . we have some new microphones that i 'd like to start trying out , um , once i test them . and then we 'll we 'll need to specify that somewhere . so i was just gon na do a fixed list of , uh , microphones and types . phd c: yeah . grad b: so , as i said phd e: ok . phd g: that sounds good . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , since we have such a short agenda list i guess i wi i will ask how how are the transcriptions going ? yeah . postdoc f: the the news is that i 've i uh s so in s um so i 've switched to start my new sentence . i i switched to doing the channel - by - channel transcriptions to provide , uh , the uh , tighter time bins for partly for use in thilo 's work and also it 's of relevance to other people in the project . and , um , i discovered in the process a couple of of interesting things , which , um , one of them is that , um , it seems that there are time lags involved in doing this , uh , uh , using an interface that has so much more complexity to it . and i and i wanted to maybe ask , uh , chuck to help me with some of the questions of efficiency . maybe i was thinking maybe the best way to do this in the long run may be to give them single channel parts and then piece them together later . and i i have a script , i can piece them together . i mean , so it 's like , i i know that i can take them apart and put them together and i 'll end up with the representation which is where the real power of that interface is . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and it may be that it 's faster to transcribe a channel at a time with only one , uh , sound file and one , uh , set of of , uh , utterances to check through . phd c: yeah . professor a: i 'm a little confused . i thought that that one of the reason we thought we were so much faster than than , uh , the the other transcription , uh , thing was that that we were using the mixed file . postdoc f: oh , yes . ok . but , um , with the mixed , when you have an overlap , you only have a a choice of one start and end time for that entire overlap , which means that you 're not tightly , uh , tuning the individual parts th of that overlap by different speakers . professor a: mm - hmm . yeah . postdoc f: so someone may have only said two words in that entire big chunk of overlap . professor a: yeah . postdoc f: and for purposes of of , uh , things like well , so things like training the speech - nonspeech segmentation thing . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: th - it 's necessary to have it more tightly tuned than that . professor a: ok . postdoc f: and w and w and , you know , is a it would be wonderful if , uh , it 's possible then to use that algorithm to more tightly tie in all the channels after that but , um , you know , i 've th the so , i i do n't know exactly where that 's going at this point . but m i was experimenting with doing this by hand and i really do think that it 's wise that we 've had them start the way we have with , uh , m y working off the mixed signal , um , having the interface that does n't require them to do the ti uh , the time bins for every single channel at a t uh , through the entire interaction . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: um , i did discover a couple other things by doing this though , and one of them is that , um , um , once in a while a backchannel will be overlooked by the transcriber . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: as you might expect , professor a: sure . postdoc f: because when it 's a b backchannel could well happen in a very densely populated overlap . and if we 're gon na study types of overlaps , which is what i wan na do , an analysis of that , then that really does require listening { comment } to every single channel all the way through the entire { comment } length for all the different speakers . now , for only four speakers , that 's not gon na be too much time , but if it 's nine speakers , then that i that is more time . so it 's li you know , kind of wondering and i think again it 's like this it 's really valuable that thilo 's working on the speech - nonspeech segmentation because maybe , um , we can close in on that wi without having to actually go to the time that it would take to listen to every single channel from start to finish through every single meeting . phd e: yeah , but those backchannels will always be a problem i think . uh especially if they 're really short and they 're not very loud and so it it can it it will always happen that also the automatic s detection system will miss some of them , so . postdoc f: ok . well so then then , maybe the answer is to , uh , listen especially densely in places of overlap , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: just so that they 're they 're not being overlooked because of that , and count on accuracy during the sparser phases . phd e: yeah . postdoc f: cuz there are large s spaces of the that 's a good point . there are large spaces where there 's no overlap at all . someone 's giving a presentation , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: or whatever . that 's that 's a good that 's a good thought . and , um , let 's see , there was one other thing i was gon na say . i i think it 's really interesting data to work with , i have to say , it 's very enjoyable . i really , not not a problem spending time with these data . really interesting . and not just because i 'm in there . no , it 's real interesting . professor a: uh , well i think it 's a short meeting . uh , you 're you 're you 're still in the midst of what you 're doing from what you described last time , i assume , phd c: is true . postdoc f: professor a: and phd c: i have n't results , eh , yet professor a: yeah . phd c: but , eh , i i 'm continue working with the mixed signal now , { comment } after the the last experience . professor a: yeah . yeah . phd c: and and i 'm tried to to , uh , adjust the to to improve , eh , an harmonicity , eh , detector that , eh , i i implement . professor a: yeah . phd c: but i have problem because , eh , i get , eh , eh , very much harmonics now . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , harmonic possi possible harmonics , uh , eh , and now i 'm i 'm i 'm trying to to find , eh , some kind of a , um of h of help , eh , using the energy to to distinguish between possible harmonics , and and other fre frequency peaks , that , eh , corres not harmonics . and , eh , i have to to talk with y with you , with the group , eh , about the instantaneous frequency , because i have , eh , an algorithm , and , i get , mmm , eh , t t results similar results , like , eh , the paper , eh , that i i am following . but , eh , the the rules , eh , that , eh , people used in the paper to to distinguish the harmonics , is does n't work well . professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: and i i i i not sure that i eh , the the way o to ob the way to obtain the the instantaneous frequency is right , or it 's it 's not right . eh , professor a: yeah . phd c: i have n't enough file feeling to to to distinguish what happened . professor a: yeah , i 'd like to talk with you about it . if if if , uh if i do n't have enough time and y you wan na discuss with someone else some someone else besides us that you might want to talk to , uh , might be stephane . phd c: yeah . i talked with stephane and and thilo professor a: yeah and and thilo , yeah . phd c: and , professor a: yeah , but phd c: they nnn they they { comment } they did n't phd e: i 'm not too experienced with harmonics professor a: i see . phd c: they think that { comment } the experience is not enough to phd e: and phd g: is is this the algorithm where you hypothesize a fundamental , and then get the energy for all the harmonics of that fundamental ? phd c: no , no it 's no no . no . phd g: and then hypothesize a new fundamental and get the energy professor a: yeah , that 's wh phd c: no . i i i i do n't proth process the the fundamental . i i , ehm i calculate the the phase derivate using the fft . professor a: yeah . phd c: and the algorithm said that , eh , if you if you change the the the , eh , nnn the x - the frequency `` x `` , eh , using the in the instantaneous frequency , you can find , eh , how , eh , in several frequencies that proba probably the the harmonics , eh , professor a: uh - huh . phd c: the errors of peaks the frequency peaks , eh , eh , move around these , eh eh frequency harmonic the frequency of the harmonic . and , eh , if you if you compare the the instantaneous frequency , eh , of the of the , eh , continuous , eh , eh , filters , that , eh that , eh , they used eh , to to to get , eh , the the instantaneous frequency , professor a: mm - hmm . phd c: it probably too , you can find , eh , that the instantaneous frequency for the continuous , eh , eh the output of the continuous filters are very near . and in my case i in equal with our signal , it does n't happened . professor a: yeah . i 'd hafta look at that and think about it . phd c: and professor a: it 's it 's it 's i have n't worked with that either so i 'm not sure the way the simple - minded way i suggested was what chuck was just saying , is that you could make a a sieve . you know , y you actually say that here is phd c: yeah . professor a: let 's let 's hypothesize that it 's this frequency or that frequency , and and , uh , maybe you maybe you could use some other cute methods to , uh , short cut it by by uh , making some guesses , phd c: yeah . professor a: but but uh uh uh , i would , uh i mean you could make some guesses from , uh from the auto - correlation or something but but then , given those guesses , try , um , uh , only looking at the energy at multiples of the of that frequency , and and see how much of the take the one that 's maximum . call that the phd c: yeah . professor a: but phd c: using the energy of the of the multiple of the frequency . professor a: of all the harmonics of that . yeah . phd c: yeah . phd g: do you hafta do some kind of , uh , low - pass filter before you do that ? phd c: i do n't use . phd g: or phd c: but , i i know many people use , eh , low - pass filter to to to get , eh , the pitch . professor a: no . to get the pitch , yes . phd c: i do n't use . to get the pitch , yes . phd e: to get the pitch , yeah . phd c: but the harmonic , no . phd g: but i but the harmonics are gon na be , uh , uh , i do n't know what the right word is . um , they 're gon na be dampened by the uh , vocal tract , right ? the response of the vocal tract . professor a: yeah ? phd c: yeah ? phd g: and so just looking at the energy on those at the harmonics , is that gon na ? professor a: well so the thing is that the this is for , uh , a , um phd g: i m what you 'd like to do is get rid of the effect of the vocal tract . right ? phd e: yeah . phd g: and just look at the at at the signal coming out of the glottis . professor a: yeah . uh , well , yeah that 'd be good . phd c: yeah . professor a: but , uh but i but but i do n't know that you need to grad b: open wide ! professor a: but i do n't need you know if you need to get rid of it . i mean that 'd that 'd be nice but i do n't know if it 's ess if it 's essential . um , i mean cuz i think the main thing is that , uh , you 're trying phd g: uh - huh . professor a: wha what are you doing this for ? you 're trying distinguish between the case where there is , uh where where there are more than uh , where there 's more than one speaker and the case where there 's only one speaker . grad b: sorry . professor a: so if there 's more than one speaker , um yeah i guess you could i guess yeah you 're so you 're not distinguished between voiced and unvoiced , so so , i if you do n't if you do n't care about that phd c: yeah . professor a: see , if you also wan na just determine if you also wan na determine whether it 's unvoiced , then i think you want to look look at high frequencies also , because the f the fact that there 's more energy in the high frequencies is gon na be an ob sort of obvious cue that it 's unvoiced . phd g: yeah . professor a: but , i i uh i mean i i but , um , other than that i guess as far as the one person versus two persons , it would be primarily a low frequency phenomenon . and if you looked at the low frequencies , yes the higher frequencies are gon na there 's gon na be a spectral slope . the higher frequencies will be lower energy . but so what . i mean that 's that 's w phd c: i will prepare for the next week eh , all my results about the harmonicity and will will try to come in and to discuss here , because , eh , i have n't enough feeling to to u many time to to understand what happened with the with , eh , so many peaks , eh , eh , and i i see the harmonics there many time but , eh , there are a lot of peaks , eh , that , eh , they are not harmonics . professor a: yeah . phd c: um , i have to discover what what is the the w the best way to to { comment } to { comment } c to use them professor a: well , but yeah i do n't think you can i mean you 're not gon na be able to look at every frame , so i mean i i mean i i really i i really thought that the best way to do it , and i 'm speaking with no experience on this particular point , but , my impression was that the best way to do it was however you you 've used instantaneous frequency , whatever . { comment } however you 've come up you with your candidates , you wan na see how much of the energy is in that phd c: yeah . yeah . professor a: as coppo as opposed to all of the all the total energy . and , um , if it 's voiced , i guess so so y i think maybe you do need a voiced - unvoiced determination too . but if it 's voiced , phd c: yeah . professor a: um , and the , uh e the fraction of the energy that 's in the harmonic sequence that you 're looking at is relatively low , then it should be then it 's more likely to be an overlap . phd c: is height . yeah . this this is the idea the idea i i i had to to compare the the ratio of the the energy of the harmonics with the eh , with the , eh , total energy in the spectrum and try to get a ratio to to distinguish between overlapping and speech . mmm . professor a: but you 're looking a y you 're looking at let 's take a second with this . uh , uh , you 're looking at f at the phase derivative , um , in in , uh , what domain ? i mean this is this is in in in in bands ? or or phd c: no , no , no . professor a: just just overall phd c: it 's a it 's a o i w the band the band is , eh , from zero to to four kilohertz . and i i ot i professor a: and you just take the instantaneous frequency ? phd c: yeah . i u m t i i used two m two method two methods . eh , one , eh , based on the f eh , ftt . to fft to to obtain the or to study the harmonics from from the spectrum directly , professor a: yeah . phd c: and to study the energy and the multiples of professor a: yeah . phd c: frequency . and another another algorithm i have is the in the instantaneous frequency , based on on on the fft to to to calculate the the phase derivate in the time . eh , uh n the d i mean i i have two two algorithms . professor a: right . phd c: but , eh , in m i in my opinion the the the instantaneous frequency , the the the behavior , eh , was th it was very interesting . because i i saw eh , how the spectrum concentrate , eh , professor a: oh ! phd c: around the the harmonic . but then when i apply the the rule , eh , of the in the the instantaneous frequency of the ne of the continuous filter in the the near filter , the the rule that , eh , people propose in the paper does n't work . and i do n't know why . professor a: but the instantaneous frequency , would n't that give you something more like the central frequency of the you know , of the where most of the energy is ? i mean , i think if you does i does it why would it correspond to pitch ? phd c: yeah . i i i not sure . i i i try to to professor a: yeah . phd c: when first i i calculate , eh , using the fft , postdoc f: di - digital camera . phd c: the the grad b: keep forgetting . phd c: i get the the spectrum , professor a: yeah . phd c: and i represent all the frequency . professor a: yeah . phd c: and when ou i obtained the instantaneous frequency . and i change the the the @ @ , using the instantaneous frequency , here . professor a: oh , so you scale you s you do a a scaling along that axis according to instantaneous phd c: i use yeah . professor a: it 's a kinda normalization . phd c: yeah . yeah . because when when professor a: ok . phd c: eh , when i i i use these these frequency , eh , the range is different , and the resolution is different . professor a: yeah . phd c: and i observe more more or less , thing like this . and the paper said that , eh , these frequencies are probably , eh , harmonics . professor a: i see . huh . phd c: but , eh , they used , eh , a rule , eh , based in the in the because to to calculate the instantaneous frequency , they use a hanning window . professor a: yeah . phd c: and , they said that , eh , if these peak are , eh , harmonics , the f instantaneous frequency , of the contiguous , eh w eh eh , filters are very near , or have to be very near . but , eh , phh ! i do n't i i i i don i i and i do n't know what is the what is the distance . and i tried to to put different distance , eh , to put difference , eh eh , length of the window , eh , different front sieve , pfff ! and i i not sure what happened . professor a: ok , yeah well i i guess i 'm not following it enough . i 'll { comment } probably gon na hafta look at the paper , but which i 'm not gon na have time to do in the next few days , but but i 'm i 'm curious about it . phd c: yeah . professor a: um , uh , ok . postdoc f: i i did i it did occur to me that this is uh , the return to the transcription , that there 's one third thing i wanted to to ex raise as a to as an issue which is , um , how to handle breaths . so , i wanted to raise the question of whether people in speech recognition want to know where the breaths are . and the reason i ask the question is , um , aside from the fact that they 're obviously very time - consuming to encode , uh , the fact that there was some i had the indication from dan ellis in the email that i sent to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: and you know about , that in principle we might be able to , um , handle breaths by accessi by using cross - talk from the other things , be able that in principle , maybe we could get rid of them , so maybe and i was i i do n't know , i mean we had this an and i did n't could n't get back to you , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: but the question of whether it 'd be possible to eliminate them from the audio signal , which would be the ideal situation , professor a: i do n't know think it 'd be ideal . postdoc f: cuz phd g: uh - uh . professor a: we - see , we 're we 're dealing with real speech and we 're trying to have it be as real as possible phd e: yeah . professor a: and breaths are part of real speech . postdoc f: well , except that these are really truly i mean , ther there 's a segment in o the one i did n the first one that i did for i for this , phd e: yeah . postdoc f: where truly w we 're hearing you breathing like as if we 're you 're in our ear , you know , and it 's like it 's like professor a: yeah . postdoc f: i y i i mean , breath is natural , but not professor a: it is but it is if you record it . phd c: yeah . postdoc f: except that we 're we 're trying to mimic oh , i see what you 're saying . you 're saying that the pda application would have uh , have to cope with breath . professor a: yeah . grad b: well phd e: no . postdoc f: but phd g: an - any application may have to . grad b: the p d a might not have to , phd e: no i grad b: but more people than just pda users are interested in this corpus . phd e: yeah . grad b: so so mean you 're right postdoc f: ok , then the then i have two questions . grad b: we could remove it , postdoc f: yeah ? grad b: but i i think we do n't wan na w remove it from the corpus , in terms of delivering it because the people will want it in there . professor a: yeah . if it gets postdoc f: ok , so maybe the question is notating it . yeah ? professor a: yeah i right . if if it gets in the way of what somebody is doing with it then you might wan na have some method which will allow you to block it , but you it 's real data . you do n't wan na b but you do n't postdoc f: ok , well professor a: if s you know , if there 's a little bit of noise out there , and somebody is is talking about something they 're doing , that 's part of what we accept as part of a real meeting , even and we have the f uh the uh the the fan and the in the projector up there , and , uh , this is it 's this is actual stuff that we we wan na work with . postdoc f: well this is in very interesting professor a: so . postdoc f: because i it basically has a i it shows very clearly the contrast between , uh , speech recognition research and discourse research because in in discourse and linguistic research , what counts is what 's communit communicative . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and breath , you know , everyone breathes , they breathe all the time . and once in a while breath is communicative , but r very rarely . ok , so now , i had a discussion with chuck about the data structure professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the idea is that the transcripts will that get stored as a master there 'll be a master transcript which has in it everything that 's needed for both of these uses . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and the one that 's used for speech recognition will be processed via scripts . you know , like , don 's been writing scripts professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and and , uh , to process it for the speech recognition side . discourse side will have this this side over he the we we 'll have a s ch sorry , not being very fluent here . but , um , this the discourse side will have a script which will stri strip away the things which are non - communicative . ok . so then the then let 's let 's think about the practicalities of how we get to that master copy with reference to breaths . so what i would r r what i would wonder is would it be possible to encode those automatically ? could we get a breath detector ? grad b: oh , just to save the transcribers time . postdoc f: well , i mean , you just have no idea . i mean , if you 're getting a breath several times every minute , grad b: mm - hmm . postdoc f: and just simply the keystrokes it takes to negotiate , to put the boundaries in , to to type it in , i it 's just a huge amount of time . grad b: mm - hmm . phd e: oops . professor a: wh - what phd c: yeah . postdoc f: and you wan na be sure it 's used , and you wan na be sure it 's done as efficiently as possible , and if it can be done automatically , that would be ideal . professor a: what if you put it in but did n't put the boundaries ? postdoc f: well , but professor a: so you just know it 's between these other things , postdoc f: well , ok . so now there 's there 's another another possibility professor a: right ? postdoc f: which is , um , the time boundaries could mark off words { comment } from nonwords . and that would be extremely time - effective , if that 's sufficient . professor a: yeah i mean i 'm think if it 's too if it 's too hard for us to annotate the breaths per se , we are gon na be building up models for these things and these things are somewhat self - aligning , so if so , we i i if we say there is some kind of a thing which we call a `` breath `` or a `` breath - in `` or `` breath - out `` , the models will learn that sort of thing . uh , so but you but you do want them to point them at some region where where the breaths really are . so postdoc f: ok . but that would maybe include a pause as well , phd g: well , there 's a there 's postdoc f: and that would n't be a problem to have it , uh , pause plus breath plus laugh plus sneeze ? professor a: yeah , i you know there is there 's this dynamic tension between between marking absolutely everything , as you know , and and and marking just a little bit and counting on the statistical methods . basically the more we can mark the better . but if there seems to be a lot of effort for a small amount of reward in some area , and this might be one like this although i i i 'd be interested to h get get input from liz and andreas on this to see if they cuz they 've - they 've got lots of experience with the breaths in in , uh , uh , their transcripts . grad b: they have lots of experience with breathing ? phd g: i professor a: actually well , yes they do , but we we can handle that without them here . but but but , uh , you were gon na say something about phd g: yeah , i i think , um , one possible way that we could handle it is that , um , you know , as the transcribers are going through , and if they get a hunk of speech that they 're gon na transcribe , u th they 're gon na transcribe it because there 's words in there or whatnot . if there 's a breath in there , they could transcribe that . phd e: yeah . yeah . postdoc f: that 's what they 've been doing . so , within an overlap segment , they they do this . phd g: right . but right . but if there 's a big hunk of speech , let 's say on morgan 's mike where he 's not talking at all , um , do n't do n't worry about that . phd e: yeah . phd g: so what we 're saying is , there 's no guarantee that , um so for the chunks that are transcribed , everything 's transcribed . but outside of those boundaries , there could have been stuff that was n't transcribed . so you just somebody ca n't rely on that data and say `` that 's perfectly clean data `` . uh do you see what i 'm saying ? postdoc f: yeah , you 're saying it 's uncharted territory . phd g: so i would say do n't tell them to transcribe anything that 's outside of a grouping of words . professor a: that sounds like a reasonable reasonable compromise . phd e: yeah , and that 's that that quite co corresponds to the way i i try to train the speech - nonspeech detector , as i really try to not to detect those breaths which are not within a speech chunk but with which are just in in a silence region . professor a: yeah . phd e: and they so they hopefully wo n't be marked in in those channel - specific files . professor a: u i i wanted to comment a little more just for clarification about this business about the different purposes . phd e: but phd g: yeah , so postdoc f: mm - hmm . professor a: see , in a in a way this is a really key point , that for speech recognition , uh , research , uh , um , e a it 's not just a minor part . in fact , the i think i would say the core thing that we 're trying to do is to recognize the actual , meaningful components in the midst of other things that are not meaningful . so it 's critical it 's not just incidental it 's critical for us to get these other components that are not meaningful . because that 's what we 're trying to pull the other out of . that 's our problem . if we had nothing postdoc f: yeah . professor a: if we had only linguistically - relevant things if if we only had changes in the spectrum that were associated with words , with different spectral components , and , uh , we we did n't have noise , we did n't have convolutional errors , we did n't have extraneous , uh , behaviors , and so forth , and moving your head and all these sorts of things , then , actually speech recognition i i is n't that bad right now . i mean you can you know it 's it 's the technology 's come along pretty well . phd c: yeah . professor a: the the the reason we still complain about it is because is when when you have more realistic conditions then then things fall apart . postdoc f: ok , fair enough . i guess , um , i uh , what i was wondering is what what at what level does the breathing aspect enter into the problem ? because if it were likely that a pda would be able to be built which would get rid of the breathing , so it would n't even have to be processed at thi at this computational le well , let me see , it 'd have to be computationally processed to get rid of it , but if there were , uh , like likely on the frontier , a good breath extractor then , um , and then you 'd have to professor a: but that 's a research question , you know ? and so postdoc f: yeah , well , see and that 's what i would n't know . professor a: that and we do n't either . i mean so so the thing is it 's it right now it 's just raw d it 's just data that we 're collecting , and so we do n't wan na presuppose that people will be able to get rid of particular degradations because that 's actually the research that we 're trying to feed . so , you know , an and maybe maybe in five years it 'll work really well , postdoc f: ok . professor a: and and it 'll only mess - up ten percent of the time , but then we would still want to account for that ten percent , so . postdoc f: i guess there 's another aspect which is that as we 've improved our microphone technique , we have a lot less breath in the in the more recent , uh , recordings , so it 's in a way it 's an artifact that there 's so much on the on the earlier ones . professor a: uh - huh . i see . phd g: one of the um , just to add to this one of the ways that we will be able to get rid of breath is by having models for them . i mean , that 's what a lot of people do nowadays . professor a: right . grad b: right . phd c: yeah . phd g: and so in order to build the model you need to have some amount of it marked , so that you know where the boundaries are . phd c: hmm . professor a: yeah . phd g: so i mean , i do n't think we need to worry a lot about breaths that are happening outside of a , you know , conversation . we do n't have to go and search for them to to mark them at all , but , i mean , if they 're there while they 're transcribing some hunk of words , i 'd say put them in if possible . postdoc f: ok , and it 's also the fact that they differ a lot from one channel to the other because of the way the microphone 's adjusted . phd c: yeah . phd g: mm - hmm . postdoc f: ok . professor a: should we do the digits ? grad b: yep . ok . phd c: ok . grad d: mmm . alright .

transcribers are likely to overlook backchannels in densely populated sections of speaker overlap . speaker mn014 reported that this is also problematic for the automatic detection of speech and non-speech , as backchannels that are very short and not loud enough will inevitably be overlooked . speaker mn005 reported problems distinguishing between possible harmonics and other frequency peaks , and creating an algorithm for obtaining the instantaneous frequency . the encoding of all audible breaths is too time-consuming .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

the meeting started off with marketing leading the discussion on product positioning of the remote , which was going to be an impulse purchase and certain requirements from management , such as the remote only controlling the television . then , industrial designer shared the working design and main components of the remote . also , they discussed functions that they would add to the remote such as a child lock and the appearance of the remote , such as having a comfortable shape and different colours . user interface then raised some features that the remote ought to have such as having a timer . finally , project manager stated their target group , which was people aged ten to forty , and they discussed how to cater to their needs , such as having large buttons for the elderly .

what is the main function of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

the main function is to only control the function of a television at a far off distance . the signal released from the remote through radio waves or infrared can change different functionalities in the television . there should be a timer to set for viewing a particular program or for switching on or off a particular program or lock the television to save electricity according to the user 's choice . a child lock system should be added .

what were the other features of the remote mentioned in the discussion of functions of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

the buttons on the remote , installed with infrared bulbs , would be fluorescent whenever the tv is on , so users can find the remote even in the dark . also , the buttons can glow differently according to different functions . the remote will beep if too many buttons are pressed at once . the team agreed to add a display clock , which can also be used as an alarm clock . the idea of having teletext and controlling electronic products of the whole house was rejected .

what did the team think about having buttons for multiple operations in the discussion of functions of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

marketing said that there is a lot of argument to make one button for one feature because research results show that users complain about how hard it is to learn a new one . this idea might be suitable for people working with computers all the time but the elderly with an arthritic hand might find it difficult . user interface suggested that it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities and be in the shape of the letter t for more compatibility .

what is the product positioning of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

it would be an attractive impulse purchase which would be out in the market by september as a christmas present of twenty five euros . it would be for everybody who has a tv , mainly aged ten to forty . in the subgroups of the target group , there are elderly people who have limited functions with their fingers and hands and nervous people who can not press a little button unless it is very clear . to make the remote sellable , it should be intuitive and easy to use in order to shorten the learning curve . it could be sold with a slogan .

what is the appearance of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

the corporate colour and design are recommended to be used on the product . the remote could be in different colours such as pink or banana yellow and shapes such as a fun shape like animal shapes or a comfortable shape that fits the hand but no sharp projections , lest a child plays with it . the idea of buttons with various shapes such as a triangle for volume and square for channels was considered . everyone agreed that the text on the remote should be clear and the remote should be compact .

what did the team think of project manager 's idea of removable plastic cases when discussing the appearance of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

project manager suggested that the remote could have removable plastic cases like phones so users can change to the colour they like , for example , striped or fluorescent blue . two cases can be provided in the package and users can buy new cases in stores for a few francs or euros . the team immediately jumped on board with the idea .

what are the main components and working design of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

the remote control would have a chip in the integrated circuit , taking power from the battery and transforming input from buttons through wires into infrared signals to electronic devices . there will be buttons and underneath them are switches and bulbs . to hold everything in , there should be a case and a remote holder . the material used for the remote should be human friendly so that it will not cause any skin disease or allergy to either children or adults . the frequency of each electronic device is different so it would be very difficult to design a control for multiple devices .

what did the team think of designing different remotes for different categories of people when discussing the working design of the remote ? </s> project manager: okay , is everybody ready ? industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: yeah i 'd to just put on my microphone here and i 'll be right with you . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: okay ? project manager: um i take it you all have received instructions as to what you were supposed to do industrial designer: mm ? user interface: yes . project manager: and um i think the marketing manager probably should go first , addressing the needs and desires . marketing: okay you want me to start right now ? project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: well , could you um put my slides up 'cause i think it might be helpful if uh we looked at the slides at the same time . project manager: okay . you 're participant four . marketing: i 'm participant four i believe . yes uh-huh . project manager: okay , and now i can uh full screen . marketing: 'kay . industrial designer: open . project manager: uh , okay , okay . marketing: there we go . okay well i think we have introduced ourselves , industrial designer: and then full screen . marketing: so the functional requirements are is is part of my goal but why do n't we pass right to the second slide . cause that 's where m my discussion starts . right well um since i 'm in charge of trying to figure out what we should put on this thing since i have to try to sell it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um i thought that the method i should follow would be gather suggestions from everybody , and th the reason i just put that there like that is that uh in the init in the initial stage i think i should just be open to lots of suggestions . you know you can say anything you want no matter how silly it sounds you know it should run your car , it should heat up your motor if should um turn on your c_d_ whatever you want it to do industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um and then as we go on what we 'll have to do is accept and eliminate these suggestions according to um design and budget feasibility . so i 'll be coming to you um frequently as the industrial expert to tell me how hard it 's gon na be to add a feature or how expensive it 's gon na be or if your time , if it takes five years to develop this it 's just something we ca n't do . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . yeah . yeah . hmm hmm . mm . marketing: so in the beginning just have a big puddle of things that we anybody can th throw anything in industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then just weed things out that ca n't be done for one reason or another , and then the things that seem the most attractive that to uh to a customer we 'll try to then prioritise those . industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: so that was um what i meant there , and as i said on the slide there consulting the industrial engineer about that and the other thing is timing is really gon na be as important as money , because if we 're gon na sell this thing , i think the best time to sell it is as a christmas present . twenty five euros makes a nice little present , and we want it to be an impulse purchase , industrial designer: mm . marketing: we want somebody to see it and think it 's , gee i just got ta have that . and take out their wallet and buy it . so it 's got ta be really attractive and it but it 's got ta go to market by september , 'cause anything that you do n't already have out there in september showing it around , is n't gon na sell for christmas . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um and then i 'll be coming to you as the user interface person to try to tell me from your point of view what are the most friendly features that we could put on it and try to prior help me with that prioritising of uh of the features and of the the look and the colour user interface: okay . marketing: and i 'll be coming back to you to help weed out those suggestions from that point of view . user interface: okay . marketing: so i 'll be coming to you for how much is it gon na cost us and how long is it gon na take you , industrial designer: mm mm-hmm . marketing: and i 'll be coming to you to tell me what 's gon na make somebody take out their wallet you know , user interface: what features . marketing: what what 's what 's gon na really be what they call a sizzle , user interface: s sellable . yes . marketing: 'cause we got ta sell this sizzle . industrial designer: marketing: a lot of times the thing that works the best from an engineering point of view is n't the thing that somebody 's really just gon na take out their wallet and buy for christmas for for their child or for their husband or whatever . user interface: yes . marketing: okay can we go to the next slide please ? alright i i already did a little bit of research after our first meeting where we threw out some ideas and it looks to me that within the budget that we 're looking at the uh the whole house idea really is n't gon na be possible . so i 'd like your suggestions to come back to the other slide where i was saying we we could suggest anything . project manager: marketing: i 'd like the suggestions to be really specific , so that we 'll have a list of things we can cross off , not something like you know whole house control what 'll be and then i found on the internet from from my research that some extended electronic entertainment control should be possible . at the budget that we 're looking at and at the price point we 're looking at , we should be able to make it work the tv , the v_c_r_ , the stereo set um maybe something else cute like a coffee pot or one other appliance or maybe a lamp . project manager: uh okay , can can i at this point interject um something ? marketing: i have to wind up ? yeah , sure . project manager: um we have received instruction from higher up that certain things should not be uh considered . um the one thing for example something to eliminate maybe that 's the teletext , marketing: okay . project manager: because that 's sort of outdated with the internet , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . project manager: and according to to higher management the it should only control the tv , marketing: project manager: mostly because they feel that it 's too comp complex a task to um to to include other things , industrial designer: complicated , yeah , of course . project manager: and they are concerned with the time to market . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: of course , yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: um and the marketing: okay , so that 's something project manager: and the third thing that they wan na make sure um that their that the corporate image is being maintained , and that the corporate colour and design are being used on the product , so that it 's easy that that that they can be easily identified as a product of of of the company , and that there 's no mistake that it could be somebody else who is bringing this out . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so i just wanted to interject this here so we 're not getting too much off track here with uh with the things we wan na look at . these were instructions from higher up so we have to eliminate uh these things , so it 's only gon na be tv , marketing: okay so project manager: but the one thing maybe that could be um eliminated is the teletext uh idea . marketing: okay . project manager: mm 'kay . user interface: okay . marketing: alright , thanks for that . um alright now other things that i found out on in my research is that the complaints that people have about the remote controls that are out there now . 'cause a lot of them take too much time to learn how to use , and that was thirty four percent but even more important the thing that we did address in our last meeting that frequently it 's lost somewhere in the room . um so those are two things that we definitely do wan na address , uh we wan na s make it as simple as possible , we wan na make it um obvious and intuitive to use , and then the things about finding it we talked about the a light emitting thing as well as uh maybe a beep , and i think that those are things after my research that we definitely wan na try to incorporate . 'kay can we go to the next slide please ? okay , so , my personal preferences in this um project are really have to concentrate on the sizzle . that is the selling point , the thing that 's gon na make it an impulse purchase . uh because once there 's no be-back , well in sales they always say you know , be-backs do n't come back . industrial designer: marketing: if somebody says , oh i 'll come back and get it next week you 're dead . they 're never gon na come back and buy it . you 've got ta make it attractive enough so they buy it now now now w now is a big word in in my book for selling this thing . and , in order to make it really sellable we 've got ta shorten the learning curve , make sure it 's really intuitive and easy to use . we have to have as few buttons as possible , because more buttons is more confusion , so that 's why i 'm saying , simplicity is good . finding it 's important , obviously you ca n't use it if you ca n't find it . so we 've got ta concentrate on the features that help you find it , and i 've already said this several times but i put it down in writing here , it should be an attractive impulse purchase at twenty five euros . so it has to have enough value that when somebody looks at it they say , uh twenty five euros i 'm not gon na take that . has to be so great that they 're gon na say , uh twenty five euros is n't much . um and then maybe a motto , like we put fashion in electronics might be something we can use in our marketing campaign . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay that 's uh about it for me right now . project manager: okay . and uh who would be next , uh , i guess that would be you . mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah 'kay . project manager: you want me to get your slide show up ? industrial designer: yeah yeah sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and you are number three ? industrial designer: number two , project manager: number two . industrial designer: yeah . yeah exactly . project manager: okay . okay . industrial designer: uh can you make it uh full screen please ? project manager: mm-hmm . yep . industrial designer: no , it 's like a well you you have to press here . the cup cup shape here ? marketing: project manager: yeah yeah , uh-huh . industrial designer: the thir third . project manager: there , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah exactly . uh so today i 'm going to talk about the working design of the remote controller . um can you go to the next sli slide please ? marketing: okay . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: the metal is like uh in a remote controller you have a chip integrated circuit which is like a brain of the remote controller . it takes the power from a battery say a battery it it can be a elec an electric supply like you have to uh like uh switch connec connect connect your remote controller to uh power supply from the you know electricity or something like that . it should be a battery because uh uh remote controller should be like you you you should take it t to wherever you want and then um uh th marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: this integrated circuitry takes energy from the power source and whatever like if you press a button it 's like a input for the remote controller and it takes the input and it it transforms into a infro infrared bits and it sends it into the device , like a tv or a air conditioner , something like that so . uh a remote controller is specifically designed to a single device . if you want to design it for multiple devices then you should make all the devices compatible with the frequency like uh th the remote controller it sends some bits some uh waves like with a particular frequency the device should know what the frequency is . it should re re recognise the uh waves which are coming from the remote controller and it should take the action like if you press a button channel or something like that then uh the remote uh remote controller will send a send a se send a signal , marketing: signal . industrial designer: and the tv it should translate that into like change the channel or something like that , change the volume control user interface: receive . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh so uh i think it 's hard to design a remote controller for multiple uh devices . user interface: multi-purpose . project manager: yo and it 's marketing: yeah well that 's already been eliminated by management , so we 're off the hook . project manager: yeah but it 's so . industrial designer: uh yeah . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um . so uh user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages like there should be a user user in interface like you know switch pad or something like that buttons should be there . so uh you can control whatever you want , you want to change the channel you want to control the volume you you want to uh mute uh mute the uh tv or you want to have a child lock or you want to do some operations there 's a there should be some device to tell what to do to the uh in uh integrated circuit so that the integrated circuit can s send the signals and tv can perform the actions . marketing: mm okay . industrial designer: so can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: so i i just would like to uh add some extra features to the remote controller um i think these are the very simple features and uh they do n't take much uh uh much of the um um investment also , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's like el the text or buttons which uh which are there on the uh remote controller they those we can make uh um like fluorescent uh they 'll be like light emitting if it is dark so that you can find your remote controller if it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and ther there should be a beep if many buttons are pressed if suppose a child is playing with the remote controller and a and she she or he is pressing the buttons all at the time then there should be a beep saying that it 's this this is not a a you know a a action , there can be no action taking to that so . and there should be a child lock , like uh uh you should be able to lock your remote controller so that uh um whatever buttons are pressed by a child they ca n't be like y you i you if you have ki kids and all then they 'll be pl playing with the remote controllers so can lock the remote controller . if make it useable for more than one device it 's a it 's hard but i think it 's possible project manager: yeah well yeah well that has been e that has been eliminated , so that 's that 's unfortunately a moot point now . mm-hmm . industrial designer: but it uh marketing: well we already eliminated that . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah user interface: eliminated . industrial designer: so it 's it 's okay , yeah , yeah . and uh different shapes that we can do like uh we can have you know a all animals shapes or you know comfortable uh whi which can fit into your hands project manager: industrial designer: and um so that uh marketing: now that 's good from a marketing point of view , the fun the fun shape . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , yeah and colours also , different colours , and project manager: yeah i user interface: mm-hmm colours . marketing: and that you you say that wo n't add too much to the budget ? industrial designer: no no no , it wo n't uh i do n't think it will be like , marketing: to d the shape is uh industrial designer: you can have you know for uh if you want ther there to be more project manager: it just build a mould basically and uh you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: yes exactly . industrial designer: it 's it 's just a s shape so it does n't matter . project manager: as the budget we 're looking at if you build one mould i do n't think that 's going to make a big difference whether it 's gon na be square or industrial designer: yeah . marketing: do you think there 's any chance of um having ser in having basically the same machine with the same buttons but maybe several different shapes ? industrial designer: yeah that is also possible i uh yeah i i yeah . project manager: oh yes . marketing: is that gon na be a possible ? user interface: yes . project manager: i think marketing: 'cause that might help with the marketing . project manager: i think we will have to look at the budget on that industrial designer: yeah that will be project manager: but i think in principle that that would be that would be kind of fun , you know . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: because we had something sort of sexy for adults and we could have something sort of industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . user interface: project manager: silly for children . user interface: industrial designer: yeah , for children , yeah exactly . marketing: silly for children project manager: like an animal or marketing: or a little animal shape or in a or a little elephant so they can remember where it is . user interface: like a doll , or industrial designer: yeah , that 's what , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , exactly . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: and and the butto buttons also i think if you want to have more features in your remote controller then there should be more buttons . if there are more buttons then it will be more complicated . if you have less features then your remote controller wo n't be attractive , so i think uh we need to make some buttons which are which are like um uh f in uh in intended for two or three operations , like if you press one button in one mode then it will change the channel , if you press the other button in another mode it will change the colour . so if you want to have less buttons we can have that option but i think it will complicate the matter more i think so . marketing: mm . well , i think i think that that 's something that we 'll have to discuss um with the user interface person user interface: yes . industrial designer: yep , yeah . marketing: because i think there 's a lot of argument to be made for one button for one feature . because i think one of the things were complaining about in my what i found out in my research is when they complained about how hard it is to learn a new one . project manager: industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: the changing modes was something industrial designer: yeah , it 's like you know yeah . marketing: i mean you and i , all f all four of us we work with computers all the time , industrial designer: yeah . yeah , yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: changing modes is nothing for us , but people who project manager: yeah , a little elderly , a little arthritic hand you know , marketing: n and project manager: and and it 's a small button and and it they do n't press it exactly industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: you know something else happens n not their favourite channel comes up but something else industrial designer: yeah , yes . project manager: and they 're very frustrated you know . user interface: something else . marketing: and that 's and that 's the kind of thing people learn by feel , and um you do n't feel the mode change . industrial designer: yeah , yeah you do n't us yeah yeah , usually . yeah . marketing: so um maybe having buttons be various shapes might be a help too . industrial designer: yeah shapes also , different shapes . marketing: you know , like the a triangle is for the volume and a square is for changing channels , so that people can uh develop a tactile sense of it . industrial designer: yeah that will mm-hmm . user interface: channels . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm , mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah , marketing: but we 'll get to that with you . user interface: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and also text should be very clear so that there there wo n't be any ambiguities and uh marketing: that 's right , yeah . now that 's a good point . yeah . user interface: yes . industrial designer: so yeah . project manager: industrial designer: and uh display clock i if you want more features then we can display a clock it i i do n't think it will take any money extra money because anyway we have an integrated circuit i think we can just definitely fit that feature into the circuit so it 's marketing: yeah , that 's that 's a good that 's a good one , project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah , and we display a clock . marketing: because the clock would be really friendly , project manager: yes . marketing: and and when is your favourite show coming on industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . industrial designer: yeah , and then you can just see your remote controller yeah yeah yeah so project manager: yeah you 're sitting there already or maybe you have no other uh user interface: yes . marketing: and yeah , and a lot of time there 's not a clock on the screen , and you have to go somewhere but you just wan na look at the news for a minute . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's that 's good , the clock is good . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . uh can you go to the next slide please ? marketing: okay . industrial designer: uh components uh the main components we need for uh it ha like buttons and uh underneath that there should be switch . and uh bulbs . like uh we can have a bulb like whenever we are operating a remote controller or uh whenever the tv is on suppose , user interface: hmm . industrial designer: then the remote controller should automatically have a b s light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: then it will be like if you switch on your tv through anoth another source , not from through a remote remote controller and you you lost your remote controller maybe you can find with the light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: maybe we can have that . whenever the tv is on , remote controller will have a light . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then uh infrared bulbs . um this is like uh when it is dark . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: and battery , there should be a battery for power supply , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and a chip , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: chip which is like a brain to the remote controller which does all the operations , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and wires connecting all chips , which is uh lights , everything , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . industrial designer: so there should be wires . and uh uh of course there should be a case where we can keep all the things and , you know different shapes or whatever it is there should be a case to put to give a shape . user interface: to keep the remote ? yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: case . user interface: a case holder . a holder remote holder . industrial designer: yeah , holder . project manager: holder , yeah , mm-hmm . industrial designer: um uh can you move onto the next slide . um next sli slide please . um i have referred the site uh the homepage of the um our website , uh from where i have uh uh i got s few points . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: that 's it , that 's it from me now . project manager: okay . marketing: so it um we should visit this site and have a look at uh what 's up there ? or industrial designer: um . project manager: well , you do n't have to . industrial designer: uh it 's not like that , i have referred the page to get new ideas or like what can be the working design to how it works and all and so and so . marketing: okay . okay . so it might be helpful if we had a look at that . industrial designer: yeah if you want . yeah , it 's okay . marketing: okay , thank you . could you go back to that slide where she had that uh s slide up betsy ? industrial designer: uh , it 's actually there now , there on the screen . project manager: this one ? marketing: yeah , okay , thank you . project manager: and francine ? user interface: participant two . project manager: you are number two ? user interface: yes . no no , i 'm three . project manager: you 're three . would you want it full full screen ? user interface: i can make it full ? yes yes yes . project manager: mm-hmm ? okay . user interface: okay . as uh user interface designer i did a little research to find out what are the features which a user would like to have on their remote . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah can you please go onto the next slide ? project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so i found out that uh but uh the main purpose of a remote is to uh f control the function of a television at a far off distance at remote distance . now for that , uh a remote controller should have a switch on off button by which a user can sit anywhere in the room in front of the tv and he can control the functionalities different functionalities of the tv . marketing: project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: there should be a signal uh something like a radio wave or a infrared light or a led which can be used to change the different functionalities in the television if the user wants to uh change the channels or increase the volume he can change it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: now there should be some timer to set for viewing a particular a particular programme or switching on and off a uh a particular programme according to the user choice . project manager: on the on on the remote . yeah , mm-hmm . user interface: yes . yes . so if if he want to view a particular programme at say nine o'clock he can set the time , and the tv will automatically it will switch on at that particular time . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . right . mm-hmm . user interface: so he can use that kind of uh uh properties of features and then there should be a child lock system if a particular channel is not to be viewed by a particular uh for a certain age , then the parents can lock that particular channel so that the ch children can not view that channel . project manager: yes . by your child , mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh the uh the uh and the one of the feature a user would like to have is the compactness of the co remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: uh t the remote should be compact and it should ha it should have as many buttons as possible for controlling different functionalities of the tv television . and um uh as uh uh this is my personal preference that it should be in the shape of a t_ in alphabet for more compactability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh and uh and it is one more point which i noted it down , like uh the material which which which is used for remotes should be human friendly it should not cause any skin disease or something some al allergy to either children or to um ad adult person . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and it should have an uh it can have an alarm clock a a person if some if somebody wants to get up at around eight eight p_m_ then he can set the time and it can be used as an alarm clock , industrial designer: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and i do n't think it will cost much to set an alarm clock inside a remote . industrial designer: yeah , sure . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: if there is a clock then there can be a alarm clock . user interface: yes , marketing: and an alarm clock , yeah that should that should be okay . user interface: and as john reece said the buttons can be , uh can me we can use the fluorescence to light up the buttons so different uh buttons will glow differently . so in even in the dark the user can know what buttons to use to switch on a particular channel . and uh uh the design of the uh um remote should be in such a way that there should not be any sharp projections so that if a child plays with a remote , he uh he should not be harmed in any way . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: and findings , uh i found out uh y um on different sites that uh there are different remotes which can be used , there are remotes which use the infrared for controlling the different functionalities , there are remotes which use the radio waves to control the functions and there are uh so uh there you have different uh types of remotes for different light source which are used which can be used for controlling the different functionalities of a television . next slide . and these are my few personal preferences like it can be used for a multipurpose use . not , uh no uh like it can it can be used as a tv control as plus an alarm clock to set an alarm a timing and it should have a child lock , and then to save electricity uh there should not be uh much s move uh lots of circuits and all that . and if a person if if if parents wants the television to be switched off by ten o'clock then it should be switched off ten o at ten o'clock automatically , so that nobody else comes later and use it . industrial designer: it 's like a t okay , it 's like a timer it 's like a lock to the television . project manager: timer , yeah , mm-hmm , mm-hmm . user interface: timer . yeah and then you can use a timer as well . yes . yeah that 's it . project manager: uh okay , now i have on my slide show basically we already we have already done the agenda , and uh on the closing uh basically there will be lunch break and all that . however uh the decision we have to take in this meeting is who is our target group . and uh what function , working design , how how does it work . user interface: okay . project manager: so these are the two things we should come up wit with . so uh the first thing is pro maybe a little easier on uh who is our target group . um . i guess in many ways everybody . everybody who has a tv . industrial designer: mm , tv , yeah . user interface: tv television we was . project manager: yeah , and i think today there are probably not many people who do n't have a tv . industrial designer: do n't tv , yeah . project manager: there are a few but in general not . now , talking about the target group which is in a sense everybody , but i think within the target group we have subgroups . we have we have earlier it was mentioned about um for example elderly people who have limited function with their fingers and hands , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so i think that 's uh one group that 's certainly important . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: um then we have just the nervous people who can never press a little button on anything um unless it 's really very clear . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh i do n't know how much we want to cater to children 's use . i mean that 's a question um whether that 's important that children can really use it or not . industrial designer: mm . project manager: so this these are just some thoughts i have on it , and um i dunno what you feel about whether we can just say we have one target group and for this one target group we 're gon na design this one thing marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or whether we 're looking at what we like we we talking about different shapes , whether that different shape also includes maybe different uh buttons uh for different groups . user interface: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . well you know there 's the old motto , children under six never shop alone . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: so if you 've designed something that 's very attractive to children um the mummy please mummy please um you know we want it now we wan na go to the store and see it um that has uh a lot of marketing pull . user interface: project manager: that has a lot of that has a lot of appeal but i think uh i 'm i 'm talking about the functionality now on it whether we 're looking at different groups . industrial designer: mm . project manager: i think the children issue can be addressed with the shape and with colours . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: you know , like you make it nice and pink , fluorescent , banana colour or whatever you know user interface: different colours . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that 's right . user interface: yes . marketing: you can make a banana shaped one . project manager: yeah , for example you know . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: but the question is really , who is our target group . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: do we look at one target group ? and with the twenty five euros you know can we can we afford to have uh i 'm asking the technical people here whether um to look at sort of subgroups with maybe different buttons for each group how much would that throw us out of the cost we are supposed to respect ? user interface: marketing: respect . mm . user interface: okay . no uh generally we can we can design a remote which is mainly for people with uh f age from ten to um forty project manager: right . user interface: and and then we can add on uh specific functional buttons for children as well as the elderly people or the people wit with who have nervous problems , yes . project manager: with with mm-hmm . industrial designer: we can design different remotes for different people , like for aged people there will be big buttons and you know . project manager: well that 's that 's user interface: but in a family in a family there will be a aged person , children and a middle aged but they can not buy three different remotes . industrial designer: yeah . children and everybody , yeah . user interface: they would like to buy just one and um just one which can be used all the three uh industrial designer: yeah of course that we can do , but specifically if y if like elderly people want big buttons then you ca n't really make a bi big remote controller so maybe specifically you can design a big con remote controller for elderly and for children , like in a different you know . marketing: what about the electronics ? that 's not really gon na change much , is it ? project manager: yeah . user interface: cost effective . industrial designer: no , it it does n't cost , yeah . project manager: no marketing: that that w that wo n't change much , will it uh ? industrial designer: yeah . does n't does n't does n't matter . project manager: the the quest the question to be addressed here is only who is the target group and how will it function , marketing: i d i would n't think so . project manager: and i think the how will it function is probably the question of the buttons you know , within the target group or subgroups . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . project manager: the question is only whether our budget will allow to have more than one design in a sense . i mean the basic design i understand will be the same , marketing: yeah . project manager: but the question is how much will that set us back if let 's say uh forty percent we make large buttons and the rest we make regular buttons for example . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: so that remains to s to be seen but uh the target group as a whole is is basically everybody with a tv . marketing: that 's right , user interface: yes . marketing: and can we can we is it even feasible to make one one remote control with something for everyone , or would we have to use the same electronics and make three different shapes ? project manager: yeah , well that 's that 's the question . marketing: um the same electronics and basically all that 's gon na be different is the plastic case . industrial designer: hmm hmm . marketing: and in that case we could probabl moulded plastic is n't all that expensive is it ? industrial designer: uh no . mm , i i i do n't think no . it 's not . marketing: um you as an industrial person ? project manager: well maybe there 's there 's an idea you know t the new for example new portable phones ? marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: they have like removable plastic cases , so you can have a striped one or you can have a fluorescent blue one , or whatever , marketing: yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: and maybe something like that , user interface: okay . project manager: that in each package you know you have you you have you have for example uh you have let 's say a fluorescent blue on it but then you have uh another colour or stripe whatever that already comes in a package . marketing: well there 's a real idea yeah . mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm . project manager: and then if people really want more colours they can buy it separately . marketing: yeah . project manager: you know , industrial designer: yeah , like for mobile phones we have uh different you know covers , like designs and all so that w we can have that . marketing: right . user interface: um project manager: yes . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right , user interface: yes . project manager: and but like if if then everybody is is is tired of the fluorescent blue and of the striped or whatever they have as another one in the package , marketing: uh yeah . project manager: then they can go to the store and for a few uh francs or euros whatever they can buy industrial designer: yeah . marketing: an alternate package . project manager: an alternate package with another two colours in it you know for example you know . marketing: yeah . okay . user interface: but uh yeah i i have a doubt like will it be cost wise effective if we if we design a remote having all the uh different features for different people or designing three different um remotes for three different categories of people . project manager: well i think i think the idea here is to uh to to d design one remote industrial designer: yeah , but uh marketing: well i think we can only aff , yeah . user interface: okay . project manager: and what the only change is gon na be um industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the funct d t yeah uh marketing: cosmetic . user interface: of th okay . project manager: the functional functional cosmetics if you want to put it that way , user interface: okay . project manager: um having maybe larger buttons or buttons that light up or buttons that are slightly differently shaped for people uh either for children um user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: five minutes that was i guess tha that 's the old message . marketing: warning , finish meeting now . project manager: finish meeting now . um um . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: well we may have to come back to one or two of these points at our next meeting but um industrial designer: yeah , maybe , yeah , yeah . project manager: but i think industrial designer: if we do some more research , maybe we . project manager: i i think to sum it up the target group is basically everybody . if money permits we can address some features for some subgroups within that . user interface: okay , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hmm yeah , project manager: do we agree , do we ? industrial designer: i think maybe seventy percent is a unique uh uh remote controller and thirty percent is yeah it 's sort of like yeah . marketing: okay but we have to l project manager: do we agree on on that in principle , like money will tell whether we will be able to do that or not . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , of course , yeah . user interface: yes . marketing: okay , fair enough . project manager: okay ? so now i understand it 's lunch break . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and um . so that 's what we will do . marketing: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: so hank you very much . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: and we 'll see you after lunch .

user interface suggested adding specific functional buttons for children or the elderly or people with nervous problems . industrial designer replied that it would n't cost much . project manager suggested that they can make forty percent of the remotes with large buttons and regular buttons for the rest . to sum it up , if the budget permits , they can address some features for certain subgroups .

summarize the meeting </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

the team was setting up a new project in which they would record meetings and then generate summaries . the meeting began with introductions and a discussion of what kind of data the team could collect . they considered collecting visual data as well as notes . at the end of the meetings , the team wanted to ask participants to summarize what they took away as well as ask questions about the meeting . this would be a method for collecting more data to train a potential summarization model . one concern the team had was how they could reduce bias when collecting queries . words like `` important '' could skew participant responses . the team also expressed some interest in collecting action items . finally , the team discussed what each member should do to get the project up and running and the role of diversity in their data set .

summarize the discussion about generating queries </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

the team wanted to think about how they would generate queries . one method was directly generating queries from the summaries , though the concern was that this would not be very desirable . asking an open ended question about what was most interesting would allow the team to get a sense of the important topics .

what did phd f think about generating queries ? </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

phd f thought that it would be interesting to generate queries from the summaries , as that would open up a new area of research . phd f realized that this may not be feasible , however .

what did phd b think about automatically generating queries ? </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

phd b thought generating queries went beyond the score of the project and that landay was more equipped to handle a project like that . though , phd b recognized the flaw with people generating queries from the summaries

summarize the discussion on diversity in speech data </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

the team thought it would be worthwhile to get different sorts of meeting data . meetings will vary in mic placement , speaker sound overlap , and style . even the dominance relationships in the meetings would cause variance in the data . some members also wanted to gather tv and radio data .

what did phd b think about meeting diversity ? </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

phd b explained the different features of meetings and favored collection of diverse data . phd b thought the team 's data collection could focus on natural meetings , but there was no reason to not incorporate other data .

what did the team discuss about politics around collected data ? </s> grad g: headphones that are n't so uncomfortable . phd b: i think well , this should be off the record , professor d: hmm . phd b: but i think professor d: uh , ok . professor a: we 're not recording yet , are we ? grad g: well , i do n't think phd f: no , uh , that that was n't recorded . grad g: no . um , i do n't think they 're designed to be over your ears . phd b: yeah , i know . it just it really hurts . it gives you a headache , like if you on your temple phd f: temple squeezers . phd b: yeah . grad g: yep . phd b: yeah . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i definitely have n't figured it out . professor a: um , meeting recorder meeting . phd f: i guess i have to d stop doing this sigh of contentment , you know , after sipping cappuccino or something . phd b: yeah , with the we kno i know . grad g: `` sip , sigh . `` phd b: we know exactly how much you have left in your cup . phd f: i was just noticing a big s professor d: so are we recording now ? is this phd e: yeah . professor d: oh ! we 're we 're we 're live . ok . phd e: yeah . professor d: so , uh , what were we gon na talk about again ? so we said we said data collection , which we 're doing . phd b: were we gon na do digits ? professor a: ok . do we do th do you go around the room and do names or anything ? grad g: i think that phd e: it 's a good idea . grad g: u usually we 've done that and also we 've s done digits as well , but i forgot to print any out . so . besides with this big a group , phd b: you can write them on the board , if you want . professor d: no . i it 'd be even better with this big grad g: it would take too much time . phd e: which way is grad g: yeah , but it takes too much time . phd e: mari ? postdoc h: what professor a: what ? professor d: it 's not that long . phd e: y i think your your your thing may be pointing in a funny direction . sort of it 's it helps if it points sort of upwards . professor a: whoops . phd e: sort of it you know . professor a: would it m phd e: yeah . professor d: w u phd e: so that thing the little th that part should be pointing upwards . professor a: so oh , this thing . phd e: that 's it . yeah . professor a: yeah . postdoc h: otherwise you just get a heartbeats . professor a: it 's kind of professor d: oh , yeah , the element , yeah , n should be as close to you your mouth as possible . professor a: yeah . ok . phd e: that 's good . that kind of thing is good . postdoc h: it 's a professor a: this w alright . phd e: yeah . professor a: how 's that working ? professor d: yeah . phd e: oh , yeah . it 's a it 's working . professor a: ok . professor d: alright . so what we had was that we were gon na talk about data collection , and , um , uh , you you put up there data format , professor a: um . professor d: and other tasks during data collection , professor a: so , i think the goal the goal was what can we do how can you do the data collection differently to get professor d: and professor a: what can you add to it to get , um , some information that would be helpful for the user - interface design ? like grad g: uh , especially for querying . professor a: especially for querying . so , getting people to do queries afterwards , getting people to do summaries afterwards . um . postdoc h: well , one thing that came up in the morning in the morning was the , um , i uh , if he i , um if he has s i i do n't remember , mister lan - doctor landry ? grad g: landay . james . postdoc h: la - landay ? so he has , um , these , uh , um , tsk { comment } note - taking things , professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: then that would sort of be a summary which you would n't have to solicit . y if if we were able to to do that . professor a: well , if if you actually take notes as a summary as opposed to n take notes in the sense of taking advantage of the time - stamps . so action item or uh , reminder to send this to so - and - so , blah - blah - blah . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: so that would n't be a summary . that would just be that would b relate to the query side . grad g: but if we had the crosspads , we could ask people , you know , if if something comes up write it down and mark it somehow , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: right . i mean , we because you 'd have several people with these pads , you could collect different things . grad g: you know . professor a: right . phd e: i mean , cuz i tend to take notes which are summaries . and so , you know phd f: i mean , the down - side to that is that he sort of indicated that the , uh , quality of the handwriting recognition was quite poor . professor a: well grad g: but that 's alright . i do n't think there 'd be so many that you could n't have someone clean it up professor a: so grad g: pretty easily . professor a: yeah . we also could come up with some code for things that people want to do so that for frequent things . phd f: yeah . professor a: and the other things , people can write whatever they want . i mean , it 's to some extent , uh , for his benefit . so , if that you know , if if we just keep it simple then maybe it 's still useful . phd f: right . grad g: yeah . professor d: i just realized we skipped the part that we were saying we were gon na do at the front where we each said who we were . postdoc h: the roll call . professor a: right . i thought you did that on purpose . professor d: roll call . professor a: but anyway , shall we do the roll call ? professor d: no , not a no , i just my mind went elsewhere . so , uh , yeah , i 'm morgan , and where am i ? i 'm on channel three . grad g: and i 'm adam janin on channel a . postdoc h: i 'm jane edwards , i think on channel b . phd e: i 'm dan ellis . phd f: eric on channel nine . phd b: liz , on channel one . professor a: mari on channel zero . professor c: katrin on channel two . postdoc h: should we have used pseudo - names ? should we do it a second time with pseudo no . no . professor d: i 'm rocky raccoon on channel phd e: let me , uh , turn that off . grad g: and , uh , do you want to do the p d as and the p z phd e: oh . pzm nearest , nearest , next nearest . next one . postdoc h: next nearest . phd e: furthest . grad g: far . phd e: pdm - right , pza - right pda - right , pda - left . postdoc h: ok . phd e: thanks . grad g: yeah , and eventually once this room gets a little more organized , the jimlets { comment } will be mounted under the table , and these guys will be permanently mounted somehow . you know , probably with double - sided tape , but so . you so we wo n't have to go through that . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: i have a question on protocol in these meetings , which is when you say `` jimlet `` and the person listening wo n't know what that is , sh shou how how do we get is that important information ? you know , the jimlet i mean , the box that contains the professor d: well , i mean , suppose we broaden out and go to a range of meetings besides just these internal ones . there 's gon na be lots of things that any group of people who know each other have in column common { comment } that we will not know . professor a: right . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . postdoc h: ok . professor a: so the there will be jargon that we he there 'll be transcription errors . postdoc h: good . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . professor d: i mean , we we were originally gon na do this with vlsi design , and and and the reason we did n't go straight to that was because immediately ninety percent of what we heard would be jargon to to us . so . grad g: well , that was just one of the reasons . but , yeah , definitely . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: ok . good . professor d: that that 's right . there were others of course . yeah . postdoc h: ok , so we were on the data collection { comment } and the summary issue . professor d: right . we can go back . professor a: so , uh , u u so , actually there 's kind of three issues . there 's the crosspad issue . should we do it and , if so , what 'll we have them do ? um , do we have s people write summaries ? everybody or one person ? and then , do we ask people for how they would query things ? is that phd f: there 's there 're sub - problems in that , in that where or when do you actually ask them about that ? professor a: right . phd f: i mean , that was one thing i was thinking about was is that dan said earlier that , you know , maybe two weeks later , which is when you would want to query these things , you might ask them then . professor a: right . phd f: but there 's a problem with that in that if you 're not if you do n't have an interactive system , it 's gon na be hard to go beyond sort of the first level of question . professor a: right . phd f: right . and furth id explore the data further . professor a: right . phd f: so . professor d: there 's there 's another problem grad g: and professor d: which is , um , we certainly do want to branch out beyond , uh , uh , recording meetings about meeting recorder . and , uh , once we get out beyond our little group , the people 's motivation factor , uh , reduces enormously . and if we start giving them a bunch of other things to do , how you know , we we did n you know another meeting here for another group and and , uh , they were fine with it . but if we 'd said , `` ok , now all eight of you have to have to come up with , uh , the summar `` grad g: well , i asked them to and none of them did . professor d: t see ? there we go . grad g: so , i i asked them to send me ideas for queries after the meeting postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: they grad g: and no one ever did . phd e: mm - hmm . grad g: i did n't follow up either . professor a: yeah . grad g: so i did n't track them down and say `` please do th do it now `` . but , uh , no one spontaneously provided anything . professor d: i i 'm worried that if you did even if you did push them into it , it it it might be semi - random , professor a: right . professor d: uh , as opposed to what you 'd really want to know if you were gon na use this thing . phd e: right . professor a: ok . grad g: i just do n't know how else to generate the queries other than getting an expert to actually listen to the meeting and say `` that 's important , that might be a query `` . postdoc h: tsk . well , there is this other thing which y which you were alluding to earlier , which is , um , there are certain key words like , you know , `` action item `` and things like that , which could be used in , uh , t to some degree finding the structure . professor a: yeah . phd e: although professor a: w postdoc h: and and i also , um , was thinking , with reference to the n uh , note - taking , the advantage there is that you get structure without the person having to do something artificial later . and the fir third thing i wanted to say is the summaries afterwards , um , i think they should be recorded instead of written because i think that , um , it would take so long for people to write that i think you would n't get as good a summary . professor a: how about this idea ? that normally at most meetings somebody is delegated to be a note - taker . postdoc h: yeah , good . good point . professor a: and so why do n't we just use the notes that somebody takes ? postdoc h: yeah . grad g: i mean , that gives you a summary but it does n't really how do you generate queries from that ? phd e: well . but , i mean , maybe a summary is one of the things we 'd want from the output of the system . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: right ? i mean , they 're something . it 's a a kind of output you 'd like . phd b: actually and so grad g: uh , james and i were talking about this during one of the breaks . and the problem with that is , i 'm definitely going to do something with information retrieval even if it 's sort of not full full - bore what i 'm gon na do for my thesis . professor a: right . grad g: i 'm gon na do something . i 'm not gon na do anything with summarization . and so if someone wants to do that , that 's fine , but it 's not gon na be me . professor d: well , i think that we i mean , the the f the core thing is that you know once we get some of these issues nailed down , we need to do a bunch of recordings professor a: well professor d: and send them off to ibm and get a bunch of transcriptions even if they 're slightly flawed grad g: yep . professor d: or need some other and then we 'll have some data there . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then , i i we can start l looking and thinking , what do we want to know about these things and at the very least . phd e: mm - hmm . professor a: yeah phd b: i actually want to say something about the note pad . so , if you could sense just when people are writing , and you tell them not to doodle , or try not to be using that for other purposes , { comment } and each person has a note pad . they just get it when they come in the room . then you c you can just have a fff { comment } plot of wh you know , who 's writing when . professor d: hmm . phd b: that 's all you phd e: activity . yeah . phd b: and , you can also have notes of the meeting . but i bet that 's that will allow you to go into the sort of the hot places where people are writing things down . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: oh , i see . phd b: i mean , you can tell when you 're in a meeting when everybody stops to write something down that something was just said . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: it may not be kept in the later summary , but at that point in time is was something that was important . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: and that would n't take any extra postdoc h: that 's a nice idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or someone could just pu you could just put your hand on the pad professor d: it professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: and go like that if you want to . it 's professor d: that 's a good idea but that does n't maybe i 'm missing something , but that does n't get to the question of how we come up with queries , right ? professor a: well , what it does phd b: well , then you can go to the points where the you could actually go to those points in time and find out what they were talking about . and you r professor a: well , what it does is provide a different professor d: yeah . phd b: and grad g: uh , y professor a: i i think it 's an interesting thing . i do n't think it gets at the the queries per - se , but it does give us an information fusion sort of thing that , you know , you wan na i say `` what were the hot - points of the meeting ? `` phd b: yeah . professor d: that that 's what i mean , is that i think it gets at something interesting but if we were asking the question , which i thought we were , of of of , um , `` how do we figure out what 's the nature of the queries that people are gon na want to ask of such a system ? `` , knowing what 's important does n't tell you what people are going to be asking . phd b: but i bet it 's a good superset of it . professor d: does it ? professor a: well , yeah . phd e: well , see , there are th professor a: i think you could say they 're gon na ask about , uh , when uh , when did so - and - so s talk about blah . and at least that gives you the word that they might run a query on . phd b: at least you can find the locations where there are maybe keywords professor d: maybe . grad g: i mean , i this would tell you what the hit is , phd b: and grad g: not what the query is . professor a: right . phd b: right , right . grad g: what professor a: it 'll tell you the hit but not the query . phd b: but i think i think thinking about queries is a little bit dangerous right now . grad g: and so you could you can generate a query from the hits , professor a: right . grad g: but phd b: we do n't even know what i mean , if you want to find out what any user will use , that might be true for one domain and one user , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but i mean a different domain and a different user postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah , but we 're just looking for a place to start with that phd b: um . professor d: because , you know , th what what what james is gon na be doing is looking at the user - interface and he 's looking at the query in in i we we have five hours of pilot data of the other stuff but we have zero hours of of of queries . so he 's just sort of going `` where where do i where do i start ? `` professor a: w well , th you could do i think the summaries actually may help get us there , professor d: ok . professor a: for a couple reasons . one , if you have a summary if you have a bunch of summaries , you can do a word frequency count and see what words come up in different types of meetings . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: so `` action item `` is gon na come up whether it 's a vlsi meeting , or speech meeting , or whatever . so words that come up in different types of meetings may be something that you would want to query about . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: um , the second thing you could possibly do with it is just run a little pilot experiment with somebody saying `` here 's a summary of a meeting , what questions might you want to ask about it to go back ? `` grad g: yeah , i think that 's difficult because then they 're not gon na ask the questions that are in the summary . professor a: well grad g: but , i think it would give professor a: that 's one possi one possible scenario , though , is you have the summary , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: and you want to ask questions to get more detail . grad g: th yeah , i think it has to be a participant . well , it does n't have to be . ok . so that that is another use of meeting recorder that we have n't really talked about , which is for someone else , as opposed to as a remembrance agent , which is what had been my primary thought in the information retrieval part of it would be . but , uh , i guess if you had a meeting participant , they could use the summary to refresh themselves about the meeting and then make up queries . but it 's not professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i do n't know how to do it if until you have a system . phd b: the summary is actually gon na drive the queries then . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . phd b: i mean , your research is going to be very circular . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , that that 's what i was saying . phd e: but th there is this , um there is this class of queries , which are the things that you did n't realize were important at the time but some in retrospect you think `` oh , hang on , did n't we talk about that ? `` and it 's something that did n't appear in the summary but you professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: and that 's kind of what this kind of , uh , complete data capture is kind of nicest for . professor a: right . right . phd b: right . phd e: cuz it 's the things that you would n't have bothered to make an effort to record but they get recorded . so , i mean and th there 's no way of generating those , u u until we just until they actually occur . phd b: but you could always post - hoc label them . phd e: you know , it 's like right , right . exactly . phd b: yeah . yeah . phd e: but i mean , it 's difficult to sort of say `` and if i was gon na ask four questions about this , what would they be ? `` those are n't the kind of things that come up . grad g: but at least it would get us started . phd e: oh , yeah . yeah , sure . postdoc h: i also think that w if if you can use the summaries as an indication of the important points of the of the meeting , then you might get something like y so if th if the obscure item you want to know more about was some form of data collection , you know , maybe the summary would say , you know , `` we discussed types of na data collection `` . and , you know and and maybe you could get to it by that . if you if you had the the larger structure of the of the discourse , then if you can categorize what it is that you 're looking for with reference to those l those larger headings , then you can find it even if you do n't have a direct route to that . grad g: mmm . although it seems like that 's , um , a high burden on the note - taker . postdoc h: i think that grad g: that 's a pretty fine grain that the note - taker will have to take . phd b: maybe landay can put a student in to be a note - taker . professor a: i th no . i think you got to have somebody who knows the pro knows the topic or you know , whose job it is delegated to be the note - taker . phd b: no ? professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: somebody who 's part of the meeting . phd b: no , i mean , but someone who can come sit in on the meetings and then takes the notes with them that the real note - taker grad g: but they phd b: and that way that one student has , you know , a rough idea of what was going on , and they can use it for their research . i mean , this is n't really necessarily what you would do in a real system , grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: because that that 's a lot of trouble professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and maybe it 's not the best way to do it . but if he has some students that want to study that then they should sort of get to know the people and attend those meetings , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and get the notes from the note - taker or something . grad g: right . professor d: hmm . grad g: well , i think that 's a little bit of a problem . their sort of note - taking application stuff they 've been doing for the last couple of years , and i do n't think anyone is still working on it . professor d: yeah . grad g: i think they 're done . um , so i 'm not sure that they have anyone currently working on notes . so what we 'd have to interest someone in is the combination of note and speech . phd b: mm - hmm . grad g: and so the question is `` is there such a person ? `` and i think right now , the answer is `` no `` . professor a: well professor d: i 've b been thinking grad g: we 'll just have to see . professor d: i 've been thinking about it a little bit here about the uh , th this , e um i think that the now i 'm thinking that the summary a summary , uh , is actually a reasonable , uh , bootstrap into this into what we 'd like to get at . it 's it 's not ideal , but we you know , we we have to get started someplace . so i was i was just thinking about , um , suppose we wanted to get w we have this collection of meeting . we have five hours of stuff . uh , we get that transcribed . so now we have five hours of meetings and , uh , you ask me , uh , uh , `` morgan , what d you know , what kind of questions do you want to ask ? `` uh , i would n't have any idea what kind of questions i want to ask . i 'd have to get started someplace . so in fact if i looked at summary of it , i 'd go `` oh , yeah , i was in that meeting , i remember that , um , what was the part that `` and and th i think that might then help me to think of things even things that are n't listed in the summary , but just as a as a as a refresh of what the general thing was going on in the meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i think it serves two purpo purposes . one , as sort of a refresh to help bootstrap queries , professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: but also , i mean , maybe we do want to generate summaries . and then it 's you know , it 's kind of a key . professor d: well , yeah . that 's true too . phd e: hmm . grad g: yeah , absolutely . then you want to have it . professor a: uh phd b: so how does the summary get generated ? professor a: well , i i ? phd b: i 'm not against the idea of a summary , grad g: by hand . phd b: but i wanted to think carefully about who 's generating it professor a: or , d o phd b: and how because the summary will drive the queries . professor a: what i i think , you know , in most meetings , phd b: so professor a: this one being different , but in most meetings that i attend , there 's somebody t explicitly taking notes , frequently on a laptop um , you can just make it be on a laptop , phd b: mm - hmm . professor a: so then yo you 're dealing with ascii and not somebody you do n't have to go through handwriting recognition . um , and then they post - edit it into , uh , a summary and they email it out for minutes . i mean , that happens in most meetings . postdoc h: i i i think that , um , there 's we 're using `` summary `` in two different ways . so what you just described i would describe as `` minutes `` . grad g: minutes . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: and what i originally thought was , um , if you asked someone `` what was the meeting about ? `` phd b: ok . professor a: hmm . postdoc h: and then they would say `` well , we talked about this and then we talked about that , and so - and - so talked about `` and then you 'd have , like i e my thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing because writing takes time and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting , you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , i think you would get , uh , with mult see , i i also worry about having a single note - taker because that 's just one person 's perception . and , um , you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting , professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: and and people have different { comment } major topics that they 're interested in . professor d: a postdoc h: so , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards , professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: no longer than two minutes , professor d: adam , you can postdoc h: from multiple people . professor d: you can correct me on this , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop grad g: never . professor d: and grad g: never . i 've never seen it at icsi . does anyone ? phd b: dan ? professor d: i grad g: i mean , dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes , phd e: yeah . grad g: and phd e: i 've d when we when we have other meetings . when i have meetings on the european projects , we have someone taking notes . grad g: oh , really ? professor d: yeah , but those are bigger deal things . phd e: in fact , i often do it . professor d: right ? where you 've got fifteen peo phd e: yeah . professor d: i mean , most th this is one of the larger meetings . most of the meetings we have are four or five people grad g: that 's true are four or five people . professor a: yeah . professor d: and you 're not you do n't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it . professor a: right . professor d: you just get together and talk about where you are . professor a: so , i think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion . grad g: culture . professor d: yeah . professor a: and i agree , professor d: yeah . professor a: technical discussions you do n't usually have somebody taking notes . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad g: the iram meeting , they they take notes every professor d: do they ? grad g: there 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting . phd e: how many people are those meetings ? grad g: there are more . i mean , there are ten - ish . phd e: yeah . phd b: y you should also have a record of what 's on the board . professor d: yeah . grad g: they 're very sparse . phd b: i mean , i find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on . i i do n't know how grad g: yeah . this is something early in the project we talked a lot about . phd b: i do n't know how , but for instance , i mean , the outline is sort of up here and that 's what people are seeing . and if you have a or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards . but there 's sort of this missing information otherwise . phd e: we sh we should grad g: i agree , but but you you just you g end up with video , postdoc h: i agree . phd e: well , i do n't know . grad g: and and instrumented rooms . and that 's a different project , i think . phd e: f u i think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera grad g: yeah , different phd b: uh , y phd e: just to take pictures of who 's there , where the microphones are , and then we could also put in what 's on the board . you know , like three or four snaps for every phd b: right . postdoc h: i agree . phd b: yeah . people who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise . phd e: for every meeting . postdoc h: that 's wonderful . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: but do n't you think that 's do n't you think that but postdoc h: i agree . professor c: mm - hmm . phd b: even people who were at the meeting . phd e: well , no . i mean , i i just think i mean , i think that right now we do n't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables . professor a: right . grad g: huh . phd e: and that the at some point that might be awfully useful . grad g: right . but i think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mmm . phd e: yeah . we n uh , postdoc h: it 's just a digital record . phd e: not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover . phd b: i do n't mean that you model it . phd e: just just in terms of phd b: we should just like archiving it or storing it . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: yes , i agree . i agree . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's i because discourse is about things , phd b: because someone postdoc h: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable . phd b: someone later might be able to take these and say `` ok , they , you know at least these are the people who were there phd e: so phd b: and here 's sort of what they started talking about , and `` and just postdoc h: yes . and it 's so simple . professor d: li postdoc h: like you said , three snapshots professor d: uh , l l l postdoc h: and professor d: liz , you postdoc h: just to archive . professor d: u uh , liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever phd e: actually professor d: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , mark liberman was was having . so i i was n't there . they they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that . phd b: big , big interest . huge . professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , it personally , i do n't i would never want to deal with it . but i 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that darpa 's interested in . professor d: yeah . yeah . phd b: you know , fusing gesture and face recognition , professor d: yeah . phd b: even lip movement and things like that , for this kind of task . and there 's also i think a personal interest on the part of mark liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so that later we can do other things with it . professor d: yeah . so so to address what what adam 's saying , postdoc h: mmm . mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: i mean , i think you uh , that the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing . grad g: mm - hmm . professor d: and if the database exists and includes some visual information that does n't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it . right ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: so , uh grad g: but that it 's gon na be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it , and get all the standards , and to do anything with it . professor d: right . so we 're gon na so we 're gon na do what we 're gon na do , whatever 's reasonable for us . grad g: yeah . phd b: i think even doing something very crude professor d: but having phd b: like i know with atis , we just had a tape recorder running all the time . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: and later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening , even though you w you just got the speech from the machine . so if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity , grad g: low fidelity . phd b: yeah , { comment } way of of doing that , i think it would be worthwhile . grad g: yeah . postdoc h: i agree . and if it 's simple as i mean , as simple as just the digital phd b: otherwise you 'd you lose it . professor d: well , minimally , i mean , what what dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people , postdoc h: yeah . professor d: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and so grad g: right . professor d: so , um grad g: well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz you 'll professor d: yeah . grad g: well , the wireless . professor d: yeah . grad g: but phd b: also cmu has been doing this and they were the most vocal at this meeting , alex waibel 's group . and they have said , i talked to the student who had done this , { comment } that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room . so i think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we do n't collect it { comment } at all . grad g: yeah . i i i do n't disagree . i think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . the problem with it is you 'll have more people who do n't want to be filmed than who do n't want to be recorded . professor c: mmm . grad g: so that there 's going to be another group of people who are gon na say `` i wo n't participate `` . postdoc h: well , she 's not making professor c: that 's true . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head grad g: um phd b: and not look at each other and not look at boards , and just all be sitting talking . professor d: uh - huh . phd b: that would be an interes bu postdoc h: well professor d: great idea . postdoc h: well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah . but i think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards , phd b: yeah . i definitely wo n't participate if there 's a camera . postdoc h: sp spatial organization and you could anonymize the faces for that matter . you know , i mean , this is grad g: but , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work . postdoc h: we can talk about the grad g: to set it up and then anonymize it ? postdoc h: it 's just one snapshot . phd b: no , it wa n not , um professor a: no , no , no , no . postdoc h: we 're not talking about a movie . professor a: so phd b: not for not for cmu . postdoc h: we 're talking about a snapshot . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: they have a pretty crude set - up . and they had grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: they just turn on these cameras . they were they were not moving or anything . grad g: could n't find it ? phd b: and stored it on analog media . grad g: hmm ? postdoc h: hmm . phd b: and they they did n't actually align it or anything . they just they have it , though . postdoc h: yeah . well , it 's worth considering . maybe we do n't want to spend that much more time discussing it , phd f: did they store it digitally , or ? postdoc h: but phd b: hmm - mm . i think they just phd f: or just put it on videotape ? phd b: i think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something . um , professor d: mm - hmm . well , i think for i mean , for our purposes we probably will d phd b: i 'm not sure . professor d: we we might try that some and and we certainly already have some recordings that do n't have that , uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , i think . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: yeah . postdoc h: th the thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then i think it 's a wise thing to do because once it 's gone it 's gone . and phd b: i 'm just the community if ldc collects this data u i mean , and l - if mark liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there . professor d: there you go . phd b: and so that could argue for us not doing it or it could argue for us doing it . the only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video . professor d: i think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: as you say , if they if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to , uh , and and will include all that . phd b: mmm . professor d: um , professor a: e professor d: i i i 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up . i 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it . in other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all . and so i i i think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing . but i i am int i do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that . like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a polaroid of the of the of the boards , phd b: of the board . postdoc h: yeah . phd b: or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board . professor d: and postdoc h: exactly . professor d: a and know the position of the people phd b: that 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured . postdoc h: exactly . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary . postdoc h: we and it especially since this is common knowledge . i mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants , and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording . grad g: uh , except in postdoc h: s grad g: er , if we were n't recording this , this this would get lost . right ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: well , i do n't understand that point . i mean , i just think that the grad g: the point is that we 're not saving it anyway . right ? in in our real - life setting . postdoc h: well professor a: what do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ? i 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you . professor c: and you 're gon na send it out by email , too . grad g: well , uh , in that case we do n't need to take pictures of it . phd b: right . that would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record . professor a: yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc h: well professor a: well , that 's why that 's why i 'm saying that i think the note - taking would be i think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking , in which case , that 's a useful thing to have uh , i mean , we uh , we do n't need to require it . just like the grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: i mean , i think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting . um , postdoc h: i agree . professor a: so so we wo n't worry about requiring these things , but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications . so . professor d: so so , i mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do , uh , so i guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody from from today ? ok . so . um postdoc h: that 's great . professor d: so so the question { comment } that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection . phd b: ow . professor d: and i guess the crosspads was certainly one idea , uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that . right ? and then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries and are we gon na do anything about that . professor a: well , before we leave the crosspads and and call it done . professor d: oh , ok . professor a: so , if i 'm collecting data then there is this question of do i use crosspads ? professor d: yeah . professor a: so , i think that if we really seriously have me collect data and i ca n't use crosspads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it , um , unless you think that the crosspads are gon na n i 'm not i 'm not sure what they 're gon na do . but but having a small percentage of the data with it , i 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not . maybe maybe it 's no big deal . professor d: what professor a: maybe we just do it and see what happens . professor d: i guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the ui stuff . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: so it 's sort of landay supplying it so that landay 's stuff can be easier to do . professor a: right . professor d: so it it right now he 's g operating from zero , professor a: nothing . professor d: and so even if we did n't get it done from uw , it seems like that would could still you shou professor a: ok . professor d: i mean , at least try it . phd b: i think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept . professor d: yeah . phd b: it will professor a: right . ok . phd b: you know , what you can do with things . grad g: and and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away , so we could probably get more as well . phd b: yeah . but not not to rely on them for basic modeling . professor a: that 's true . so if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me . grad g: yeah , i 'm not sure . i think it it it will again depend on landay , and if he has a student who 's interested , and how much infrastructure we 'll need . i mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it . professor d: yeah . grad g: um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably wo n't do it . professor a: right . professor d: i guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot in one sense or another . grad g: yeah . yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gon na do . professor d: and so we try it out and see how it works . grad g: right . professor a: yeah . phd b: i just would n't base any of the modeling on having those . professor a: right . phd b: yeah . grad g: right . i ag i think i agree with that . phd b: it 's just professor a: right . ok . grad g: i think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though . that if if people have something in front of them phd b: i 'd be sort of cool . i mean , it would yeah . that w should n't be hard for grad g: yeah . do it on pilots or laptops or something . ok , if something 's important everyone clap . professor a: ok . so crosspads , we 're just gon na try it and see what happens . professor d: ok . grad g: yeah . um , i think that 's right . professor a: ok . professor d: ok . professor a: the note - taking so , i i think that this is gon na be useful . so if we record data i will definitely ask for it . so , i j i think we should just say this is not we do n't want to put any extra burden on people , but if they happen to generate minutes , could could they send it to us ? grad g: yeah . oh , ok . that 's fine . absolutely . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and then grad g: yeah . what i was gon na say is that i do n't want to ask people to do something they would n't normally do in a meeting . it 's ver i just want to keep away from the artificiality . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: but i think it definitely if they exist . and then jane 's idea of summarization afterward i think is not a bad one . um , picking out basically to let you pick out keywords , um , and , uh , construct queries . professor d: so who who does this summarization ? postdoc h: yeah , i 'm thinking that grad g: people in the meeting . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: you know , just at at the end of the meeting , before you go , postdoc h: uh - huh . phd b: without hearing each other though , probably . grad g: go around the table . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . phd f: or even just have one or two people stay behind . grad g: yeah . ugh . yeah . professor d: yeah . phd e: people with radio mikes can go into separate rooms and continue recording without hearing each other . that 's the nice thing . phd b: well , then you should try them a few weeks later postdoc h: how fascinating . phd b: and they have all these memory experiments about how little you actually retain grad g: and see score them ? phd e: that 's right . well , that 's the interesting thing , though . phd b: and was n't phd e: if we do if we collect four different summaries , you know , we 're gon na get all this weird data about how people perceive things differently . grad g: oh . phd e: it 's like { comment } this is not what we meant to research . grad g: hmm . phd b: right , right . professor d: oh . yeah . postdoc h: that could be very interesting . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: but but again , like the crosspads , i do n't think i would base a lot of stuff on it , professor d: ru grad g: i d yeah , i do n't know how you would do it , though . professor a: because i think i know when i see the the clock coming near the end of the meeting , i 'm like inching towards the door . grad g: mm - hmm . running to yeah , professor a: so , grad g: fff ! phd e: hmm . professor a: you 're probably not gon na get a lot of people wanting to do this . grad g: maybe e is email easier ? postdoc h: well , i think if grad g: i mean , i when you first said do do it , um , spoken , what i was thinking is , oh then people have to come up postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and you have to hook them up to the recorder . so , if they 're already here i think that 's good , professor a: right . grad g: but if they 're not already here for i 'd rather do email . i 'm much faster typing than anything else . postdoc h: yeah , i 'd just try well , however the least intrusive and and quickest way is , and th and closest to the meeting time too , cuz people will start to forget it as soon as they l leave . grad g: yeah . professor a: yeah . i think that i think doing it orally at the end of the meeting is the best time . grad g: i do n't know . at professor a: i just do n't postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: because they 're kind of a captive audience . once they leave , grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: you know , forget it . but but i grad g: yeah , read the digits , do the summary . professor a: right . but , uh , i do n't think that they 'll necessarily you 'll you 'll get many people willing to stay . professor d: hmm . professor a: but , you know , if you get even one postdoc h: w professor d: well , i think it 's like the note - taking thing , postdoc h: i would s yeah . professor d: that that y that you ca n't certainly ca n't require it or people are n't gon na want to do this . but but if there 's some cases where they will , then it would be helpful . phd f: hmm . postdoc h: and i 'm also wondering , could n't that be included in the data sample so that you could increase the num you know , the words that are , uh , recognized by a particular individual ? if you could include the person 's meeting stuff and also the person 's summary stuff , maybe that would be uh , phd e: yeah . it 's kind of nice . postdoc h: an ad addition to their database . phd e: yeah . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: under the same acoustic circumstance , cuz if they just walk next door with their set - up , nothing 's changed , phd e: right . postdoc h: just phd f: so i have a question about queries , grad g: god , that 's bugging me . phd f: which is , um , grad g: can we turn that light off ? postdoc h: you turn phd f: uh grad g: if can we turn that just that that let professor d: the fl the fluorescent light is flickering . postdoc h: uh , let the record show the light is flickering . phd f: i do n't know . professor a: yeah . grad g: yeah , there 's a phd b: oh , it is it is like ok . professor d: yeah . professor a: yeah . grad g: very annoying . phd f: there you go . ok . grad g: oh , much better . professor a: for a little while i thought it was just that i was really tired . professor c: oh , yeah . professor d: yeah . professor c: that 's better . phd f: good . professor a: that and y { comment } too much caffeine and really tired , grad g: too much caffeine . professor a: but then i thought `` no , maybe that 's real `` . professor d: ok . phd f: so , grad g: i thought it was the projector for a moment . it was like , `` what 's going on ? `` professor d: yeah . phd f: the question i had about queries was , um , so what we 're planning to do is have people look at the summaries and then generate queries ? are are we gon na try and o grad g: we we 've just been talking , how do we generate queries ? phd f: yeah . well , i mean , grad g: and so that was one suggestion . phd f: so , the question i had is is have we given any thought to how we would generate queries automatically given a summary ? i mean , i think that 's a whole research topic un unto itself , professor d: mmm . phd f: so that it may not be a feasible thing . but phd e: hello . dan here . phd f: n phd b: should n't landay and his group be in charge of figuring out how to do this ? professor d: yeah . phd b: i mean , this is an issue that goes a little bit beyond where we are right now . phd e: ok . phd b: they 're the expert phd e: mari ? professor a: yeah ? phd e: someone wants to know when you 're getting picked up . is someone picking you up ? professor a: um , what 's our schedule ? professor d: well , you still wanted to talk with liz . professor a: let 's see , you and i need dis uh , no , we did the liz talk . professor d: and you and i need to oh , oh . you already did the liz talk . professor a: yeah . so so that was the prosody thing . professor d: ok . phd b: we - i do n't remember it . professor a: um , we need to finish the professor d: oh , ok . professor a: it 's already four - fifteen . phd b: i have like no recall memory . professor a: uh , after . professor d: yeah . professor a: we need to finish this discussion , and you and i need a little time for wrap - up and quad chart . so , grad g: and what ? professor a: um professor d: i 'm at your disposal . so , up to you . professor a: um , what what 's the plan for this discussion ? we should professor d: um , i think we should be able to wind up in another half - hour or something , you think ? grad g: at least . yeah . professor a: uh , less . grad g: m i even if that much ? professor a: yeah . professor d: less ? grad g: less . professor a: so , i think phd b: it 's interesting that he 's got , like , this discussion free professor d: well , i mean , we still have n't talked about the action items from here and so on . professor a: action yeah . so , phd b: yet it 's separate . professor d: and professor a: e e why do n't you say five - thirty ? i do n't phd e: ok , five - thirty . professor a: is that ok ? we 'll probably hit horrible traffic . phd e: sounds ok . h thanks , bye . professor a: that 's not a lot of time , phd e: that 's that . professor a: but professor d: yeah . grad g: well , in answer to `` is it landay 's problem ? `` , um , he does n't have a student who 's interested right now in doing anything . so he has very little manpower . um , there 's very little allocated for him and also he 's pretty focused on user interface . so i do n't think he wants to do information retrieval , query generation , that sort of stuff . professor d: yeah , well there 's gon na be these student projects that can do some things but it ca n't be , yeah , very deep . u i i actually think that that , uh , again , just as a bootstrap , { comment } if we do have something like summaries , then having the people who are involved in the meetings themselves , who are cooperative and willing to do yet more , come up with with with queries , uh , could at least give give landay an idea of the kind of things that people might want to know . i mean , ye right ? if he does n't know anything about the area , and the people are talking about and and , uh phd b: but the people will just look at the summaries or the minutes and re and sort of back - generate the queries . that 's what i 'm worried about . so you might as well just give him the summaries . professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: and professor d: maybe . phd f: well , i 'm not sure i 'm not sure that 's a solved problem . grad g: y well , but i think phd b: oh , ok . phd f: right ? of how to how to generate queries from a phd b: how to do this from the summary . professor d: yeah . grad g: i , uh phd f: that was sort of what my question was aimed towards . phd b: so what you want to h to do is , people who were there , who later see , uh , minutes and s put in summary form , which is not gon na be at the same time as the meeting . there 's no way that can happen . are we gon na later go over it professor a: hmm . professor d: right . grad g: right . phd b: and , like , make up some stuff to which these notes would be an answer , or or a deeper yeah . i mean grad g: or or just a memory refresher . phd b: but that 's done off they have to do that off - line . grad g: yep . i agree . phd b: you postdoc h: i 'm also wondering if we could ask the the people a a question which would be `` what was the most interesting thing you got out of this meeting ? `` becau - in terms of like informativeness , phd b: that 's a good one . postdoc h: it might be , you know , that the summary would would not in even include what the person thought was the most interesting fact . professor d: i would think that would be the most likely thing . phd b: dan does n't know what sex he is . phd e: yeah , really . professor a: but actually i would say that 's a better thing to ask than have them summarize the meeting . postdoc h: i think you get two different types of information . professor a: you get two yeah , that 's true . phd e: yeah . postdoc h: because you get , like , the general structure of important points and what the what the meeting was about . professor d: hey . phd b: ah professor d: yeah . grad g: we 're still here . postdoc h: so you get the general structure , the important points of what the meeting was about with the summary . but with the `` what 's the most interesting thing you learned ? `` uh , so the fact that , uh , i know that transcriber uses snack is something that i thought was interesting phd b: going to see the kids . phd e: you you can keep it on . postdoc h: and that and that dan worked on on that . so i thought that was really you know . so , i mean , you could ge pick up some of the micro items that would n't even occur as major headings professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: but could be very informative . professor a: yeah , that 's actually a really good idea . postdoc h: i think it would n't be too , uh , uh , cost - intensive either . you know , i mean , it 's like something someone can do pretty easily on the spur of the moment . professor c: are you thinking about just asking one participant or all of them ? grad g: as many are willing to do it . professor c: make it a voluntary thing , phd e: yeah . cuz you 'll get cuz you 'll get very different answers from everybody , right ? professor c: and then yeah . that 's why i was wondering . phd e: so grad g: well , maybe one thing we could do is for the meetings we 've already done i mean , i we did n't take minutes and we do n't have summaries . but , uh , people could , like , listen to them a little bit and generate some queries . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: of course jane does n't need to . i 'm sure you have that meeting memorized by now . phd e: yeah . professor a: but actually it would be an easy thing to just go around the room and say what was the most interesting thing you learned , grad g: mmm . postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: for those pe people willing to stay . postdoc h: and that i think it would pick up the micro - structure , the some some of the little things that would be hidden . professor a: and and that might be something people are willing to stay for . professor d: boy , i i do n't know how we get at this postdoc h: that would be interesting . professor c: yeah , but when you go around the room you might just get the effect that somebody says something grad g: or want to get up and leave . professor c: and then you go around the room and they say `` yeah , me too , i agree . `` grad g: me too , me too , me too . professor d: yeah . professor a: that 's fine . professor c: so phd e: on the other hand people might try and come up with different ones , right ? professor d: well phd e: they might say `` oh , i was gon na say that one but now i have to think of something else `` . grad g: well , you have the other thing , that that they know why we 're doing it . we 'll i mean , we 'll we 'll be telling them that the reason we 're trying to do this is is to d generate queries in the future , so try to pick things that other people did n't say . professor d: it 's gon na take some thought . i mean , it seemed the kind of , uh , interest that i had in this thing initially was , uh , that i basically the form that you 're doing something else later , professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: and you want to pick up something from this meeting related to the something else . so it 's really the imp the the list of what 's important 's in the something else professor a: right . professor d: rather than the phd e: mmm . professor d: and it might be something minor of minor importance to the meeting . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: right . professor d: uh , in fact if if it was really major , if it 's the thing that really stuck in your head , then you might not need to go back and and and check on it even . so it 's it 's that you 're trying to find { comment } you 're you 've now you were n't interested say i i said `` well , i was n't that much interested in dialogue , i 'm more of an acoustics person `` . phd e: right . professor d: but but thr three months from now if for some reason i get really interested in dialogue , and i 'm `` well what is what was that part that that that , uh , mari was saying ? `` grad g: yeah , like jim bass says `` add a few lines on dialogue in your next perf `` professor a: uh professor d: yeah . yeah . professor a: yeah . professor d: and then i 'm trying to fi i mean , that 's that 's when i look in general when i look things up most , is when it 's something that did n't really stick in my head the first time around and but for some { comment } new reason i 'm i 'm i 'm interested in in in the old stuff . grad g: but that that 's gon na be very hard to generate . professor a: well , i that 's hard to generate professor d: so , i do n't i do n't know . professor c: mm - hmm . phd f: do we professor a: and and i think that 's half of what i i would use it for . but i also a lot of times um , make you know , think to myself `` this is interesting , professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: i 've got ta come back and follow up on it `` . professor d: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: so , things that i think are interesting , um , i would be , uh , wanting to do a query about . and also , i like the idea of going around the room , because if somebody else thought something was interesting , i 'd kind of want to know about it and then i 'd want to follow up on it . phd e: hmm . professor d: yeah . that that might get at some of what i was i was concerned about , uh , being interested in something later that w uh , i did n't consider to be important the first time , which for me is actually the dominant thing , because if i thought it was really important it tends to stick more than if i did n't , but some new task comes along that makes me want to look up . grad g: but but what 's interesting to me may not b have been interesting to you . professor d: yeah . so having multiple people might get at some of that . grad g: by so by going around yeah . professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i i think you ca n't get at all of it , professor d: yeah . grad g: right ? w we just need to start somewhere . professor d: yeah , and this is a starting point . postdoc h: uh - huh . phd f: the question the question then is h h how much bias do we introduce by you know , introduce by saying , you know , this was important now and , you know , maybe tha something else is important later ? professor d: mm - hmm . phd f: i mean , does it does the bias matter ? i i do n't know . i mean , uh , that 's , i guess , a question for you guys . but postdoc h: well , and and one thing , we we 're saying `` important `` and we 're saying `` interesting `` . phd f: uh , yeah , yeah . postdoc h: and and those those can be two different things . professor a: mm - hmm . phd f: sure , sure . but i i i guess that 's the question , really , is that i mean , postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: w phd f: does building queries based on what 's important now introduce an irreversible bias on being able to do what morgan wants to do later ? professor d: well , irreversible . postdoc h: ok , good . phd f: that 's that 's professor d: i i i mean , i guess what i what i i keep coming back to in my own mind is that , um , the soonest we can do it , we need to get up some kind of system postdoc h: yeah . phd f: right . professor d: so that people who 've been involved in the meeting can go back later , even if it 's a poor system in some ways , and , uh and ask the questions that they actually want to know . if you know , if uh , as soon as we can get that going at any kind of level , then i think we 'll have a much better handle on what kind of questions people want to ask than in any anything we do before that . but obviously we have to bootstrap somehow , professor a: right . professor d: and phd f: sure . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd f: i agree . postdoc h: i will say that that i i chose `` interesting `` because i think it includes also `` important `` in some cases . but , um , i i i feel like the summary gets at a different type of information . phd f: i think `` important `` can often be uninteresting . professor a: mmm . phd e: mmm . and `` interesting `` is more interesting than `` important `` . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: well , and and also i it puts a lot of burden on the person to to evaluate . you know , i think inter `` interesting `` is is non - threatening in professor a: ok - ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: in the interest of , um , grad g: importance ? postdoc h: yeah . professor a: generati { comment } generating an interesting summary , { comment } um postdoc h: mm - hmm . yeah . professor a: no , i in the interest of generating some minutes here , uh , and also moving on to action items and other things , let me just go through the things that i wrote down as being important , um , that we at least decided on . crosspads we were going to try , um , if landay can get the , uh get them to to you guys , um , and see if they 're interesting . and if they are , then we 'll try to get m do it more . um , getting electronic summary from a note - taking person if they happen to do it anyway . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: um , getting just , uh , digital pictures a couple digital pictures of the the table and boards to set the context of the meeting . uh , and then going around the room at the end to just say qu ask people to mention something interesting that they learned . so rather than say the most interesting thing , something interesting , postdoc h: k professor a: and that way you 'll get more variety . postdoc h: sure . professor d: mm - hmm . grad g: i would n't even say that `` that they learned `` . postdoc h: that 's good . i like that . i like that . professor a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: uh , you might want to mention something that that you brought up . professor a: `` thing that was discussed . `` and then the last thing c would be for those people who are willing to stay afterwards and give an oral summary . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor a: ok ? does that pretty much cover everything we talked about ? that well , that we want to do ? postdoc h: mm - hmm . a and one and one qualification on on the oral summaries . they 'd be s they 'd be separate . they would n't be hearing each other 's summaries . professor a: ok . grad g: yeah , that 's like n i think that 's gon na predominantly end up being whoever takes down the equipment then . postdoc h: and and that would also be that the data would be included in the database . grad g: yeah , that would be , let 's see , me . professor a: mm - hmm . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd e: i mean , there is still this hope that people might actually think of real queries they really want to ask at some point . postdoc h: ok . phd e: and that if if that ever should happen , then we should try and write them down . postdoc h: mm - hmm . professor d: right . professor c: mm - hmm . grad g: give them a reward , a dollar a query ? phd e: yeah , really . professor d: yeah . phd e: if they 're real queries . professor a: ok . so professor d: well , and again , if we can figure out a way to jimmy a a a a very rough system , say in a year , then uh , so that in the second and third years we we actually have something to postdoc h: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: play with and generate real queries from . professor d: ask queries . professor a: right . ok . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor a: so . yeah . professor d: uh phd b: i think i just wanted to say one thing about queries . i mean , the level of the query could be , you know , very low - level or very high - level . and it gets fuzzier and fuzzier as you go up , right ? grad g: well , we 're gon na phd b: so you need to have some sort of if you start working with queries , some way of identifying what the you know , if this is something that requires a a one - word answer or it 's one place in the recording versus was there general agreement on this issue of all the people who ha phd e: hmm . phd b: you know , you can gen you can ask queries that are meaningful for people . grad g: yep . phd b: in fact , they 're very meaningful cuz they 're very high - level . but they wo n't exist anywhere in the a you know grad g: absolutely . so i think we 're gon na have to start with keywords postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: and and if someone becomes more interested we could work our way up . professor d: i i 'm i i 'm not so sure i agree with that . phd b: it but it may well grad g: but professor d: because uh , b because it depends on , uh , what our goal is . grad g: really ? professor d: if our goal is wizard of oz - ish , we might want to know what is it that people would really like to know about this data . grad g: oh , that 's true . professor d: and if it 's if if it 's something that we do n't know how to do yet , th great , phd e: yeah . professor a: right . phd e: yeah . professor d: that 's , you know , research project for year four or something . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: research , yeah . professor d: you know ? professor a: mm - hmm . grad g: yeah , i was thinking about wizard of oz , but it requires the wizard to know all about the meetings . phd e: we 'd have to listen to all the data . professor d: um , well , not maybe not true wizard of oz grad g: so . professor d: because people are too grad g: oh , yeah . i i understand . professor d: uh , aware of what 's going on . phd e: well just imagine if professor d: but but just phd e: get people to ask questions that they def the machine definitely ca n't answer at the moment , professor d: yeah . w just `` what would you like to know ? `` phd e: but grad g: yep . phd e: yeah . grad g: but that neither could anyone else , though , is what , uh , my point is . phd e: yes . postdoc h: i i was wondering if if there might be one s more source of queries which is indicator phrases like `` action item `` , professor a: ok . postdoc h: which could be obtained from the text from the transcript . grad g: right . since we have the transcript . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: dates maybe . i do n't know . that 's something i always forget . postdoc h: yeah , that 's something to be determined , something to be specified , phd b: well , probably if you have to sit there at the end of a meeting and say one thing you remember , it 's probably whatever action item was assigned to you . postdoc h: but text - oriented . phd b: i mean , in gen that 's all i remember from most meetings . grad g: that that 's all i wrote down . postdoc h: i think you 'd remember that , yeah . phd b: so , in general , i mean , that could be something you could say , right ? i 'm supposed to do this . it it does n't postdoc h: yeah , that 's true . well , but then you could you could prompt them to say , you know , `` other than your action item `` , you know , whatever . phd e: well postdoc h: but but the action item would be a way to get , uh , maybe an additional query . phd b: i mean , that 's realistically what people might well be remembering . postdoc h: so . phd b: so . professor d: hmm . postdoc h: yeah . well , but you know , but you could get again @ @ professor a: well , we 're piloting . we 'll just do it and see what happens . phd b: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: i usually do n't remember my action items . but i 'd i professor a: ok - ok . speaking of action items , can we move on to action items ? professor d: yeah . mm - hmm . grad g: sure . can you hand me my note pad ? postdoc h: yeah . yeah . professor a: um , or maybe we should wait until the summary of this until this meeting is transcribed and then we will hav professor d: we we had i mean , phd e: yeah . then we 'll know . grad g: thanks . professor d: somewhere up there we had milestones , but i guess did y did you get enough milestone , uh , from the description things ? professor a: i got yeah . in fact , why do n't you hand me those transparencies so that i remember to take them . eee , professor d: ok . professor a: ok . professor d: and , you know , there 's obviously detail behind each of those , as much as is needed . so , you just have to let us know . professor a: ok . what i have down for action items is we 're supposed to find out about our human subject , um , requirements . postdoc h: good . professor a: uh , grad g: yep . professor a: people are supposed to send me u r for their for web pages , to c and i 'll put together an overall cover . and you 're s phd e: right . we professor a: hmm ? phd e: we need to look at our web page professor a: and and you also need to look at your web page phd e: and make one that 's that 's p professor a: and clean it up by mid - july . phd e: pda - free . grad g: right . phd e: yeah . professor a: um , professor d: right . professor a: let 's see . choo - choo - choo . we grad g: mailing lists . professor a: mailing list ? uh , you need to put together a mailing list . professor d: three of them . professor a: uh , i think w professor d: well i mean , professor a: yeah . professor d: uh , professor a: um , professor d: mostly together . professor a: uh , i need to email adam or jane , um , about getting the data . who should i email ? grad g: uh , how quickly do you want it ? professor a: um . grad g: my july is really very crowded . and so , uh professor a: how about if i just c uh , right now all i want i personally only want text data . i think the only thing jeff would do anything with right now but i 'm just speaking fr based on a conversation with him two weeks ago i had in turkey . but i think all he would want is the digits . um , but i 'll just speak for myself . i 'm interested in getting the language model data . eh , so i 'm just interested in getting transcriptions . grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: so then just email you ? postdoc h: ok . so y sure , sure , sure . professor a: ok . professor d: wh postdoc h: you could email to both of us , uh , just i mean , if you wanted to . professor d: mm - hmm . postdoc h: i mean , i do n't think either of us would mind recei professor a: ok . professor d: i grad g: that 's right . postdoc h: but but in any case i 'd be happy to send you the professor a: and your email is ? professor d: i postdoc h: edwards at icsi . professor a: ok . professor d: w grad g: dot berkeley dot edu , of course . professor a: and then professor d: in in our phone call , uh , before , we we , uh it turns out the way we 're gon na send the data is by , uh , and , uh and then what they 're gon na do is take the cd - rom and transfer it to analog tape and give it to a transcription service , uh , that will grad g: oh , is this ibm ? professor d: yeah . postdoc h: yeah , using foot pedals professor d: yeah , foot foot pedals postdoc h: and professor d: and grad g: uh , so do they how are they gon na do the multi - channel ? professor d: see , that 's a good question . postdoc h: yeah . they they do n't have a way . grad g: i thought so . professor d: no , i mean , it 'll be postdoc h: but they have a verification . professor d: probably about like you did , grad g: mix ? professor d: and then there will be some things you know , many things that do n't work out well . and that 'll go back to ibm and they 'll they 'll , uh they run their aligner on it and it kicks out things that do n't work well , which you know , the overlaps will certainly be examples of that . and , uh i mean , what w we will give them all of it . right ? grad g: ok . that 's , uh , my question . professor d: we 'll give them all the the multi - channel stuff grad g: so we 'll give them all sixteen channels professor d: and grad g: and they 'll do whatever they want with it . professor d: yeah . phd b: but you also should probably give them the mixed you know , equal sound - level professor d: yeah . good idea . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: i mean , they 're not gon na easily be able to do that , probably . grad g: it 's not hard . professor d: well phd b: ah , yeah . grad g: so . phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: it 's also wo n't be adding much to the data to give them the mixed . phd f: but w phd b: i phd f: it 's not professor a: right . phd f: right . it does n't it is n't difficult for us to do , grad g: yep . absolutely . phd b: i you should yeah . phd f: so we might as well just do it . phd b: you should that may be all that they want to send off to their transcribers . grad g: absolutely . so , sure . professor a: ok . related to to the conversation with picheny , i need to email him , uh , my shipping address and you need to email them something which you already did . postdoc h: i did . i i m emailed them the transcriber url , um , the on - line , uh , data that adam set up , the url so they can click on an utterance and hear it . and i emailed them the str streamlined conventions which you got a copy of today . professor d: right . and i was gon na m email them the which i have n't yet , a pointer to to the web pages that we that we currently have , cuz in particular they want to see the one with the the way the recording room is set up postdoc h: good . professor d: and so on , your your page on that . postdoc h: oh , excellent . good . grad g: and then p possibly postdoc h: i c - i cc ' ed morgan . i should have sent i should have cc ' ed you as well . professor a: ok . grad g: not an immediate action item but something we do have to worry about is data formats for for higher - level information . professor a: ok . professor d: oh , yeah . we were gon na grad g: well , or d or not even higher level , different level , prosody and all that sort of stuff . we 're gon na have to figure out how we 're gon na annotate that . professor a: yeah . we never had our data format discussion . professor d: yeah , we w right . postdoc h: oh , i thought we did . we discussed , uh , musi musical score notation professor a: oh , ok . grad g: but that 's not that 's display . postdoc h: and and its xml grad g: that 's different than format . professor a: that 's postdoc h: well , um professor a: w my my u feeling right now on format is you guys have been doing all the work phd e: well uh , yeah . professor a: and whatever you want , we 're happy to live with . postdoc h: yeah . professor a: um , postdoc h: ok , excellent . professor a: other people may not agree with that , professor d: ok . so , what n important thing professor a: but cuz i 'm not actually touching the data , postdoc h: well , it c phd e: right . professor a: so i should n't be the one to talk . but professor c: no , i think that 's fine . professor d: so a key thing will be that you we tell you postdoc h: great . professor a: yeah . professor d: what it is . uh , we also had phd f: `` here 's a mysterious file phd e: yeah . phd f: and `` professor d: we also had the , uh , uh that we were s uh , that you were gon na get us the eight - hundred number professor a: oh , yeah . professor d: and we 're all gon na we 're gon na call up your communicator thing and and we 're gon na be good slash bad , depending on how you define it , uh , users . professor c: now , something that i mentioned earlier to mari and liz is that it 's probably important to get as many non - technical and non - speech people as possible in order to get some realistic users . so if you could ask other people to call and use our system , that 'd be good . cuz we do n't want people who already know how to deal with dialogue systems , professor a: yeah . or , like if you have a professor c: who know that you should n't hyper - articulate , for instance , and things like that . professor a: or , like if you have somebody who makes your your plane reservations for you , professor c: so . professor d: yeah . professor a: um , which is professor d: yeah , we can do that . professor a: the n grad g: get my parents to do it . professor a: yeah . yeah . seriously . professor c: yeah , for instance . professor d: yeah . professor c: your grandmother . professor d: hmm . professor a: yeah . e you know , it could result in some good bloopers , which is always good for presentations . so um , anyway professor d: yeah . grad g: i think my father would last through the second prompt before he hang hung up . professor a: mmm . professor d: my mother would have a very interesting conversation with it grad g: he would never use it . professor d: but it would n't have anything to do with the travel . professor a: ok . um , other professor d: ok . professor a: let 's see , other action items . so i have the professor d: we talked about that we 're getting the recording equipment running at uw . and so it depends , w e e e they 're you know , they 're p m if that comes together within the next month , there at least will be , uh , uh , major communications between dan and uw folks phd e: yeah . i mean , professor a: i 'm i 'm shooting to try to get it done get it put together by the beginning of august . professor d: as to phd e: we should talk about it , but postdoc h: mmm . professor a: so , um , you know , if professor d: but we have it it 's it 's pretty we do n't know . i mean , he he s uh , he said that it was sitting in some room collecting dust professor a: we do n't know . professor d: and and so we do n't know , professor a: i it 's probably unlikely that we 'll pull this off , professor d: i e professor a: but a at least it 's worth trying . grad g: mm - hmm . what is it ? professor d: we do n't know . grad g: oh , ok . professor d: `` recording equipment . `` phd e: yeah . grad g: it 's a tape recorder . professor d: w we know it 's eight channels . uh , we know it 's digital . grad g: it 's eight tape recorders . professor d: we do n't even know if there 're microphones . so , we 'll find out . professor a: ok . um , and i will email these notes um , i 'm not sure what to do about action items for the data stuff , although , then somebody i guess somebody needs to tell landay that you want the pads . professor d: yeah , ok . i 'll do that . professor a: ok . professor d: um , and he also said something about outside there that came up about the outside text sources , that he he may have grad g: mm - hmm . professor a: oh ! professor d: some text sources that are close enough to the sort of thing that we can play with them for a language model . professor c: hmm . phd e: yeah , that was uh , that was what he was saying was this he this thing that , uh , jason had been working on finds web pages that are thematically related to what you 're talking about . well , that 's the idea . so that that that would be a source of text which is supposedly got the right vocabulary . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: right . phd e: but it 's obviously very different material . it 's not spoken material , for instance , professor d: yeah . but it 's p it might be phd e: so professor a: but but that 's actually what i wan na do . that 's that 's what i wan na work with , phd e: ok . professor a: is is things that s the wrong material but the right da the right source . phd e: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad g: un - unfortunately landay told me that jason is not gon na be working on that anymore . professor a: yeah . grad g: he 's switching to other stuff again . professor a: yeah . he seemed when i asked him if he could actually supply data , he seemed a little bit more reluctant . so , i 'll i 'll send him email . i 'll put it in an action item that i send him email about it . and if i get something , great . if i do n't get something grad g: who ? landay or jason ? professor a: landay . and , uh , um , professor d: ok . grad g: ok . professor a: you know , otherwise , if you guys have any papers or i could i could use , uh i could use your web pages . that 's what we could do . you 've got all the web pages on the meeting recor professor d: yeah , why search for them ? professor a: yeah ! professor d: they 're we know where they are . grad g: true . professor d: yeah , that 's true . grad g: absolutely . professor a: oh , forget this ! phd e: sure . grad g: well , but that 's not very much . professor a: i one less action item . i can use what web pages there are out there on meeting recorders . grad g: yep . phd e: right . grad g: i mean , that that 's yeah . basically what his software does is h it picks out keywords and does a google - like search . professor a: yeah . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor d: yeah . so we can we can we can do better than that . phd e: we can do that . yeah . grad g: so you could professor d: yeah . grad g: yeah . professor c: mm - hmm . professor d: there 's there 's some , uh , carnegie mellon stuff , right ? on on meeting recording , grad g: yep . phd b: and xerox . professor a: so , there 's there 's icsi , xerox , professor d: and phd b: and there 's you should l look under , like , intelligent environments , professor d: and xerox . yeah . phd b: smart rooms , grad g: um , the `` georgia tech classroom two thousand `` is a good one . phd b: um professor a: cmu , phd b: right . and then right . j there 's th that 's where i thought you would want to eventually be able to have a board or a camera , professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: because of all these classroom grad g: well , georgia tech did a very elaborate instrumented room . professor a: mm - hmm . phd b: yeah . grad g: and i want to try to stay away from that . so professor a: ok . great . that solves that problem . one less action item . um ok . i think that 's good enou that 's that 's pretty much all i can think of . postdoc h: can i ask , uh , one thing ? it relates to data data collection and i and i 'd and we mentioned earlier today , this question of um , so , um , i s i know that from with the near - field mikes some of the problems that come with overlapping speech , uh , are lessened . but i wonder if uh , is that sufficient or should we consider maybe getting some data gathered in such a way that , um , u w we would c uh , p have a meeting with less overlap than would otherwise be the case ? so either by rules of participation , or whatever . professor a: oh , yeah . postdoc h: now , i mean , you know , it 's true , i mean , we were discussing this earlier , that depending on the task so if you 've got someone giving a report you 're not gon na have as much overlap . phd f: adam ! postdoc h: but , um , i i uh , so we 're gon na have s you know , non - overlapping samples anyway . but , um , in a meeting which would otherwise be highly overlapping , is the near - field mike enough or should we have some rules of participation for some of our samples to lessen the overlap ? professor d: hmm . phd e: turn off professor a: i do n't think we should have rules of participation , but i think we should try to get a variety of meetings . that 's something that if we get the the meeting stuff going at uw , that i probably can do more than you guys , postdoc h: ok . professor a: cuz you guys are probably mostly going to get icsi people here . but we can get anybody in ee , uh , over professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: and and possibly also some cs people , uh , over at uw . so , i think that that there 's a good chance we could get more variety . postdoc h: ok . just want to be sure there 's enough data to professor a: um , phd b: they 're still gon na overlap , postdoc h: ok , good . phd b: but mark and others have said that there 's quite a lot of found data { comment } from the discourse community that has this characteristic and also the political y you know , anything that was televised for a third party has the characteristic of not very much overlap . professor d: mm - hmm . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: wasn - but w i think we were saying before also that the natural language group here had less overlap . postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: so . professor d: so it also depends on the style of the group of people . professor a: right . phd b: like the , um , dominance relations of the people in the meeting . postdoc h: mm - hmm . on the task , and the task . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc h: it 's just i just wanted to uh , professor d: yeah . postdoc h: because you know , it is true people can modify the amount of overlap that they do if if they 're asked to . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: not not entirely modify it , but lessen it if if it 's desired . but if if that 's sufficient data i just wanted to be sure that we will not be having a lot of data which ca n't be processed . professor a: ok . so i 'm just writing here , we 're not gon na try to specify rules of interaction but we 're gon na try to get more variety by i using different groups of people postdoc h: time . professor a: and different sizes . postdoc h: fine . and i you know , i i know that the near f near - field mikes will take care of also the problems to s to a certain degree . professor a: e e yeah . and then the other thing might be , um , uh , technical versus administrative . postdoc h: i just wanted to be sure . professor a: cuz if i recorded some administrative meetings then that may have less overlap , because you might have more overlap when you 're doing something technical and disagreeing or whatever . postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . well , i just as as as a contributary eh , so i i know that in l in legal depositions people are pr are prevented from overlapping . they 'll just say , you know you know , `` wait till each person is finished before you say something `` . so it is possible to lessen if we wanted to . but but these other factors are fine . i just wanted to raise the issue . professor a: well , the reason why i did n't want to is be why i personally did n't want to { comment } is because i wanted it to be as , uh , unintrusive as possi postdoc h: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor a: as you could be with these things hanging on you . postdoc h: oh , yeah . yeah , i think that 's always desired . i just want to be sure we do n't that we 're able to process , i u uh , you know , as much data as we can . yeah . professor d: yeah . did they discuss any of that in the the meeting they had with l liberman ? phd b: mm - hmm . professor d: what phd b: and there was a big division , professor d: what what do they phd b: so liberman and others were interested in a lot of found data . professor d: yeah . phd b: so there 's lots of recordings that they 're not close - talk mike , professor d: yeah . phd b: but and and there 's lots of television , you know , stuff on , um , political debates and things like that , congre congressional hearings . boring stuff like that . um , and then the cmu folks and i were sort of on the other side in cuz they had collected a lot of meetings that were sort of like this and said that those are nothing like these meetings . um , so there 're really two different kinds of data . and , i guess we just left it as @ @ { comment } that if there 's found data that can be transformed for use in speech recognition easily , then of course we would do it , professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: but newly collected data would would be natural meetings . so . professor d: actually , th @ @ { comment } the cmu folk have collected a lot of data . is that is that going to be publicly available , phd b: as far as i know , they h have not . professor d: or ? phd b: um , but e professor d: ok . grad g: it 's also it 's not it 's not near - far , right ? phd b: i 'm not sure . um , if people were interested they could talk to them , but i i got the feeling there was some politics involved . grad g: i think @ @ gon na add that to one of my action items . phd b: no . professor d: just to check . phd b: i i do n't know . professor d: yeah . w we should know what 's out there certainly . grad g: yeah . phd b: i mean , the professor d: yeah . grad g: cuz i had thought they 'd only done far - field , phd b: i think you need to talk to waibel and grad g: intelligent - room sorts of things . phd e: oh , really ? it 's those guys . grad g: i had n't known that then they 'd done any more than that . professor d: oh , they only did the far - field ? i see . grad g: yeah . phd b: but they had multiple mikes and they did do recognition , and they did do real conversations . but as far as i know they did n't offer that data to the community at this meeting . grad g: mm - hmm . phd b: but that could change cuz mark you know , mark 's really into this . we should keep in touch with him . professor d: yeah . well , once we send out postdoc h: yeah , i think professor d: i mean , we still have n't sent out the first note saying `` hey , this list exists `` . but but , uh , once we do that professor a: is that an action item ? professor d: yeah . it 's on i already added that one on my board to do that . so , uh uh , hopefully everybody here is on that list . we should at least check that everybody here ? grad g: i think everyone here is on the list . professor d: yeah . phd f: i 'm not . postdoc h: u e e grad g: i think you are . professor d: we have n't sent anything to the list yet . phd f: oh ! ok . postdoc h: yeah . professor d: we 're just compiling the list . phd f: i see . grad g: i i added a few people who did n't who i knew had to be on it even though they did n't tell me . professor d: mm - hmm . phd e: who specifically ask not to be . grad g: like jane , for example . professor d: yeah . grad g: you are on it , are n't you ? postdoc h: yeah , i am . professor d: yeah . postdoc h: so , i w uh , just just for clarification . so `` found data `` , they mean like established corpora of linguistics and and other fields , right ? phd b: what they mean is stuff they do n't have to fund to collect , postdoc h: it sounds like such a t phd b: and especially good postdoc h: yeah , ok . phd b: well , i mean , `` found `` has , uh , also the meaning that 's it very natural . it 's things occur without any you know , the pe these people were n't wearing close - talking mikes , but they were recorded anyway , like the congressional hearings and , you know , for legal purposes or whatever . postdoc h: ok . but it includes like standard corpora that have been used for years in linguistics and other fields . phd b: mark 's aware of those , too . phd e: `` hey , look what we found ! `` postdoc h: ok . phd b: that would be found data because they found it and it exists . grad g: hmm . postdoc h: exactly . phd e: `` i found this great corpora . `` yeah . phd b: they did n't have to collect it . of course it 's not `` found `` in the sense that at the time it was collected for the purpose . grad g: `` psst . { comment } want to buy a corpora ? `` postdoc h: yeah . ok , ok . phd b: but what he means is that you know , mark was really a fan of getting as much data as possible from you know , reams and reams of stuff , of broadcast stuff , postdoc h: that 's interesting . phd b: web stuff , postdoc h: mm - hmm . phd b: tv stuff , radio stuff . but he well understands that that 's very different than these this type of meeting . grad g: it 's not the same . phd b: but , so what ? it 's still it 's interesting for other reasons . postdoc h: ok . yeah . just wanted to know . professor d: so , seems like we 're winding down . professor a: mm - hmm . professor d: right ? many ways . phd b: you can tell by the prosody . phd e: so we should go go around and s professor a: yeah . phd e: we should go around and say something interesting that happened at the meeting ? professor a: oh . yes , we should do that . phd b: rrrh ! grad g: now , i was already thinking about it , so professor d: oh ! good man . phd b: this is painful task . professor c: hmm . phd b: i grad g: so , um , i really liked the idea of what i thought was interesting was the combination of the crosspad and the speech . especially , um , the interaction of them rather than just note - taking . so , can you determine the interesting points by who 's writing ? can you do special gestures and so on that that have , uh , special meaning to the corpora ? i really liked that . postdoc h: well , i i just realized there 's another category of interesting things which is that , um , i i found this discussion very , uh , i this this question of how you get at queries really interesting . and and the and i and the fact that it 's sort of , uh , nebulous , what what that what kind of query it would be because it depends on what your purpose is . so i actually found that whole process of of trying to think of what that would involve to be interesting . but that 's not really a specific fact . i just sort of thought we we went around a nice discussion of the factors involved there , which i thought was worthwhile . phd e: i had a real revelation about taking pictures . i do n't know why i did n't do this before and i regret it . so that was very interesting for me . postdoc h: mm - hmm . grad g: did you take pictures of the boards ? phd e: not that i postdoc h: yeah . phd e: the boards are n't really related to this meeting . i mean , i will take pictures of them , but postdoc h: that 's a good point . professor a: they 're related to this morning 's meeting . phd e: but postdoc h: yeah . grad g: to the pre previous meeting . that 's right . phd e: ok . well , that 's why i 'll take pictures of them , then . phd f: i 'm gon na pass because i ca n't i mean , of the jane took my answer . grad g: ah ! phd f: so . postdoc h: oh . phd f: um , so i 'm gon na pass for the moment but y come come back to me . phd e: for the moment . phd b: pass . professor a: i think i think `` pass `` is socially acceptable . but i will say uh , i will actually uh , a spin on different slightly different spin on what you said , this issue of , uh , realizing that we could take minutes , and that actually may be a goal . so that that may be kind of the test in a sense , test data , uh , the the template of what we want to test against , generating a summary . so that 's an interesting new twist on what we can do with this data . professor c: i agree with jane and eric . i think the question of how to generate queries automatically was the most interesting question that came up , and it 's something that , as you said , is a whole research topic in itself , so i do n't think we 'll be able to do anything on it because we do n't have funding on it , uh , in this project . but , um , it 's definitely something i would want to do something on . grad g: i wonder if work 's already been done on it . postdoc h: like e expert systems and stuff , professor d: hmm . postdoc h: or ? uh - huh . professor d: well , being more management lately than than research , i think the thing that impressed me most was the people dynamics and not any of the facts . that is , i i really enjoyed hanging out with this group of people today . so that 's what really impressed me . phd e: how are we gon na find that in the data ? grad g: well , if we had people wearing the wireless mikes all the time phd e: oh , yeah . grad g: yeah , i think phd f: well , i mean , one thing you could search for is were people laughing a lot . phd e: right . phd f: right ? so . professor d: yeah . phd e: how happy were they ? professor d: i 'd probably search for something like that . grad g: that actually has come up a couple times in queries . i was talking to landay professor d: yeah . grad g: and that was one of his examples . professor d: yeah . grad g: when when did people laugh ? phd e: that 's great . professor d: find me a funny thing that jeff said . yeah . grad g: so we need a laugh detector . phd e: yeah . professor a: mm - hmm . phd e: perfect . postdoc h: yeah . grad g: cuz that seems to be pretty common . not in the congressional hearings . phd f: no . grad g: quiet sobbing . professor d: so i think we 're done . professor a: ok . phd e: ok . professor a: great . phd e: great . phd f: ok . grad g: i think we 're done . professor d: great . postdoc h: h do we need do i need to turn something off here , or i do unplug this , or ? professor d: now these we turn off . right ?

the team knew that the cmu folks had collected a lot of data , but they were not sure if it was publicly available . it seemed that there was politics involved . the team thought that they could let mark see if cmu would let them use the data .

what was said in the meeting ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

the group discussed the preparation of a data sample for ibm , the manual adjustment of time bins by transcribers , recognition results for a test set of digits data , and forced alignments . participants also talked about eurospeech 2001 submissions , and exchanged comments on the proceedings of the recently attended human language technologies conference ( hlt'01 ) . preliminary recognition results were presented for a subset of digits data . efforts to deal with cross-talk and improve forced alignments for non-digits data were also discussed .

what was said about ibm ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

one meeting recording has been channelized and pre-segmented for delivery to ibm . a subset of meeting recorder data will be prepared ( i.e . pre-segmented and manually adjusted ) for delivery to ibm .

what were the preliminary recognition results ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

preliminary recognition results were obtained for a subset of digits data . the error rate distribution was multimodal , reflecting differences in performance for native versus non-native speakers , and also possible pre-processing errors .

what did the team say about the transcriber interface ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

the transcriber interface may require modifications if it becomes necessary for transcribers to quickly switch among waveform displays .

what was said about mixed signals ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

transcribers risk overlooking speech that is deeply embedded in the mixed signal . should transcriptions be derived from each of the close-talking channels or from the mixed signal alone ? the pre-segmentation tool does not perform well on short utterances , e.g . backchannels .

what challenges needed to be overcome before submission for eurospeech ’ 01 ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

deleting segments of the recordings is expected to be very time-consuming for transcribers . more results are needed for generating adequate submissions for eurospeech'01 .

what is the future of data alignments ? </s> postdoc a: ok . grad g: how about channel professor c: yeah , go ahead . grad e: we 're recording . grad g: alright . professor c: alright , and no crash . postdoc a: hmm . grad e: i pre - crashed it . professor c: yeah . phd f: pre - crashed ! phd d: it never crashes on me . grad e: i think it 's actually phd d: what is what is that ? grad e: it depends on if the temp files are there or not , that at least that 's my current working hypothesis , phd d: ah . grad e: that i think what happens is it tries to clear the temp files and if they 're too big , it crashes . phd d: ah . phd b: when the power went out the other day and i restarted it , it crashed the first time . grad e: oh , that 's right . phd b: after the power out phd d: so then there would be no temp files . professor c: yeah . phd d: ok . { comment } hmm . grad e: uh , no , it does n't it does n't clear those necessarily , phd d: oh wait it it does n't clear them , ok . grad e: so . professor c: hmm , no connection . grad e: it 's i they 're called temp files , but they 're not actually in the temp directory they 're in the scratch , so . they 're not backed up , but they 're not erased either on power failure . phd d: but that 's usually the meeting that i recorded , and it neve it does n't crash on me . phd b: well this was n't actually , this was n't a before your meeting , this was , um , tuesday afternoon when , um , uh , robert just wanted to do a little recording , grad e: oh well . phd d: oh oh , right . phd b: and the power had gone out earlier in the day . phd d: ok . huh , ok . professor c: i do n't know when would be a good excuse for it , but i just ca n't wait to be giving a talk t and and and use the example from last week with everybody t doing the digits at once . grad e: yeah . postdoc a: that was fun . professor c: i 'd love to play somebody that . postdoc a: that was fun . phd d: it was quick . professor c: it was . it was really efficient . phd b: talk about a good noise shield . you know ? you wanted to pe keep people from listening in , you could like have that playing outside the room . nobody could listen in . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , i had this idea we could make our whole meeting faster that way . professor c: yeah . everybody give the reports about what they were doing at exactly the same time , phd d: and we 'll just all leave , phd b: and then we 'll we 'll go back later and review the individual channels , professor c: yeah . phd d: and grad e: yep , and then everyone can listen to it later . phd b: right ? grad e: yes . absolutely . phd b: if you wan na know what professor c: actually is n't that what we have been doing ? phd d: yeah . grad e: it 's what it sounds like . phd b: practically , huh . with all the overlaps . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: what are we doing ? grad e: i since i 've been gone all week , i did n't send out a reminder for an agenda , so . professor c: yeah , and i 'm just grad e: do we have anything to talk about or should we just read digits and go ? phd b: i would n't mind hearing how the conference was . professor c: what conference ? phd d: uh , i had one question about grad e: yeah , really . it 's all a blur . phd d: are n't the uw folks coming this weekend ? grad e: yep . phd f: no . the next , phd d: next weekend ? grad e: next weekend , week from phd f: right ? professor c: that is right . the next weekend . phd d: sorry , not not not the days coming up , but phd f: it 's like the grad e: a week from saturday . phd d: yeah , professor c: that 's when they 're coming . phd d: within ten days . professor c: that 's correct . phd d: so , are we do we have like an agenda or anything that we should be professor c: no , but that would be a good idea . phd d: ok . professor c: why do n't we w phd f: so so the deal is that i can , um , uh , i can be available after , uh , like ten thirty or something . i do n't know how s how early you wanted to professor c: they 're not even gon na be here until eleven or so . grad e: that 's good . phd f: oh , ok . so professor c: cuz they 're flying up that day . phd d: wait , this is on on sunday ? professor c: saturday . phd d: or saturday ? professor c: saturday . phd f: saturday . professor c: s saturday . phd d: ok . grad e: well , y professor c: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: eurospeech is due on friday and then i 'm going down to san uh , san jose friday night , so , if you know , if we start nice and late saturday that 's a good thing . professor c: no , i mean , they 're flying up from from grad e: seattle . professor c: down from seattle . grad e: they 're flying from somewhere to somewhere , professor c: yeah , and they 'll end up here . so b and also brian kingsbury is actually flying from , uh , the east coast on that that morning . postdoc a: excellent . professor c: so , i i i will be i mean , he 's taking a very early flight phd f: oh . professor c: and we do have the time work difference running the right way , but i still think that there 's no way we could start before eleven . it might end up really being twelve . so when we get closer we 'll find people 's plane schedules , and let everybody know . uh , so . that 's good . grad e: but , uh , yeah maybe an agenda , or at least some things to talk about would be a good idea . professor c: well we can start gathering those those ideas , but then we we should firm it up by next next thursday 's meeting . postdoc a: will we have time to , um , to prepare something that we in the format we were planning for the ibm transcribers by then , or ? grad e: oh yeah . absolutely . postdoc a: ok . grad e: so have you heard back from brian about that , chuck ? phd b: yes , um , he 's i i 'm sorry , i should have forwarded that along . uh , oh i i think i mentioned at the last meeting , he said that , um , he talked to them and it was fine with the beeps they would be that 's easy for them to do . grad e: great . ok . so , uh , oh , though thi - thilo is n't here , um , but , uh , i i have the program to insert the beeps . what i do n't have is something to parse the output of the channelized transcripts to find out where to put the beeps , but that should be really easy to do . so do we have a meeting that that 's been done with , postdoc a: he 's he 's grad e: that we 've tightened it up to the point where we can actually give it to ibm and have them try it out ? postdoc a: he generated , um , a channel - wise presegmented version of a meeting , but it was robustness rather than edu so i guess depends on whether we 're willing to use robustness ? phd b: well for this experiment i think we can use pre pretty much anything . grad e: mm - hmm . postdoc a: ok . phd b: this experiment of just grad e: well we had we had talked about doing maybe edu as a good choice , though . well , whatever we have . phd b: well we 've talked about that as being the next ones we wanted to transcribe . grad e: right . postdoc a: ok . phd b: but for the purpose of sending him a sample one to f grad e: yeah , maybe it does n't matter . postdoc a: great . phd b: i i do n't think it matte postdoc a: i 'll i 'll i 'll , um , get make that available . grad e: ok , and has it been corrected ? postdoc a: oh , well , wait . um grad e: hand - checked ? cuz that was one of the processes we were talking about as well . phd b: right , so we need to run thilo 's thing on it , postdoc a: that 's right . phd b: and then we go in and adjust the boundaries . postdoc a: yeah that 's right . yeah , we have n't done that . i i could set someone on that tomorrow . phd b: right . grad e: and time how long it takes . phd b: ok . postdoc a: i think they 're coming phd b: and we probably do n't have to do necessarily a whole meeting for that if we just wan na send them a sample to try . postdoc a: ok . what would be a good number of minutes ? phd b: i do n't know , maybe we can figure out how long it 'll take @ @ to to do . grad e: um , i do n't know , it seems to me w we probably should go ahead and do a whole meeting because we 'll have to transcribe the whole meeting anyway sometime . professor c: yes except that if they had if there was a choice between having fifteen minutes that was fully the way you wanted it , and having a whole meeting that did n't get at what you wanted for them it 's just dependent of how much grad e: like i i mean i guess if we have to do it again anyway , but , uh professor c: yeah . phd b: i guess , the only thing i 'm not sure about is , um , how quickly can the transcribers scan over and fix the boundaries , postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: and i mean , is it pretty easy ? grad e: i think it 's gon na be one or two times real time at wow , excuse me , two or more times real time , right ? cuz they have to at least listen to it . professor c: can we pipeline it so that say there 's , uh , the transcriber gets done with a quarter of the meeting and then we you run it through this other other stuff ? uh , grad e: well the other stuff is i b i 'm just thinking that from a data keeping - track - of - the - data point of view , it may be best to send them whole meetings at a time and not try to send them bits and pieces . professor c: ok , so . oh , that 's right . so the first thing is the automatic thing , and then it 's then it 's then it 's the transcribers tightening stuff up , grad e: right . postdoc a: mm - hmm . professor c: and then it 's ibm . postdoc a: mm - hmm , mm - hmm . grad e: right . professor c: ok , so you might as well ha run the automatic thing over the entire meeting , and then and then , uh , you would give ibm whatever was fixed . postdoc a: and have them fix it over the entire meeting too ? grad e: right . professor c: well , yeah , but start from the beginning and go to the end , right ? so if they were only half way through then that 's what you 'd give ibm . postdoc a: ok . professor c: right ? phd b: as of what point ? i mean . the i guess the question on my mind is do we wait for the transcribers to adjust the marks for the whole meeting before we give anything to ibm , or do we go ahead and send them a sample ? let their professor c: why would n't we s @ @ w i if they were going sequentially through it , why would n't we give them i mean i are we trying to get something done by the time brian comes ? phd b: well i i i mean , i do n't know . grad e: that was the question . though . professor c: so if we if we were , then it seems like giving them something , whatever they had gotten up to , would be better than nothing . phd b: yeah . uh . that i agree . i agree . grad e: well , i do n't think i mean , h they they typically work for what , four hours , something like that ? postdoc a: hmm , i gue hmm . grad e: i think the they should be able to get through a whole meeting in one sitting . i would think , unless it 's a lot harder than we think it is , which it could be , certainly . postdoc a: if it 's got like for speakers then i guess i mean if phd b: we 're just doing the individual channels , grad e: or seven or eight . phd b: right ? postdoc a: individual channels . yeah . phd b: so it 's gon na be , depending on the number of people in the meeting , um , postdoc a: i guess there is this issue of , you know , if if the segmenter thought there was no speech on on a particular stretch , on a particular channel , grad e: well postdoc a: and there really was , then , if it did n't show up in a mixed signal to verify , then it might be overlooked , so , i mean , the question is `` should should a transcriber listen to the entire thing or can it g can it be based on the mixed signal ? `` and i th eh so far as i 'm concerned it 's fine to base it on the mixed signal at this point , and grad e: that 's what it seems to me too , in that if they need to , just like in the other cases , they can listen to the individual , if they need to . postdoc a: and that cuts down the time . yeah . grad e: but they do n't have to for most of it . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . so . yeah . good , good , good . phd b: i do n't see how that will work , though . postdoc a: what what aspect ? professor c: so you 're talking about tightening up time boundaries ? phd b: yeah . professor c: so how do you grad e: so , they have the normal channeltrans interface where they have each individual speaker has their own line , phd b: yeah . grad e: but you 're listening to the mixed signal and you 're tightening the boundaries , correcting the boundaries . you should n't have to tighten them too much because thilo 's program does that . postdoc a: should be pretty good , yeah . phd d: except for it does n't do well on short things , remember . grad e: right , so so you 'll have to i phd d: it will miss them . it will miss most of the really short things . grad e: uh - huh . phd d: like that . postdoc a: but those would be those would be phd d: uh - huh . it will it will miss grad e: uh - huh ! phd d: yeah , you have to say `` uh - huh `` more slowly to to get c grad e: sorry . phd d: no , i 'm s i 'm actually serious . grad e: i 'll work on that . phd d: so it will miss stuff like that which phd b: i grad e: well , so so that 's something that the transcribers will have to have to do . postdoc a: yeah , but presumably , most of those they should be able to hear from the mixed signal unless they 're embedded in the heavil heavy overlap section when in which case they 'd be listening to the channels anyway . phd b: that 's that 's what i 'm i 'm concerned about the part . phd d: right , and that 's what i 'm not sure about . postdoc a: yeah , i am too . and i think it 's an empirical question . phd b: ca n't we uh could n't we just have , um , i do n't know , maybe this just does n't fit with the software , but i guess if i did n't know anything about transcriber and i was gon na make something to let them adjust boundaries , i would just show them one channel at a time , with the marks , and let them adju postdoc a: oh they can grad e: well , but then they have to do but then they for this meeting they would have to do seven times real time , and it would probably be more than that . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . yeah . grad e: right ? because they 'd have to at least listen to each channel all the way through . postdoc a: and if phd b: but i but it 's very quick , postdoc a: uh - huh . phd b: right ? i mean , you scan i mean , if you have a display of the waveform . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: oh , you 're talking about visually . postdoc a: w well , the other problem is the breaths grad e: i just do n't think postdoc a: cuz you also see the breaths on the waveform . i 've i 've looked at the int uh , s i 've tried to do that with a single channel , and and you do see all sorts of other stuff besides just the voice . phd b: uh - huh . grad e: yeah , and i i think that they 're going much more on acoustics than they are on visuals . postdoc a: well that that i 'm not sure . grad e: so . postdoc a: what you the digital what the digital task that you had your interface ? um , i know for a fact that one of those sh she could really well she could judge what th what the number was based on the on the waveform . grad e: yeah , that 's actually true . yeah , you 're right . you 're absolutely right . yeah , i found the same thing that when i was scanning through the wave form i could see when someone started to read digits just by the shapes . postdoc a: yeah , she could tell which one was seven . grad e: um , maybe . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: so i do n't i 'm i 'm now entirely confused about what they do . grad e: but professor c: so , they 're they 're looking at a mixed signal , or they 're looking what what are they looking at visually ? postdoc a: well , they have a choice . they could choose any signal to look at . i 've tried lookin but usually they look at the mixed . but i 've i 've tried looking at the single signal and and in order to judge when it when it was speech and when it was n't , grad e: oh . postdoc a: but the problem is then you have breaths which which show up on the signal . professor c: but the procedure that you 're imagining , i mean , people vary from this , is that they have the mixed signal wave form in front of them , postdoc a: yes . phd f: postdoc a: yes . professor c: and they have multiple , uh , well , let 's see , there is n't we do n't have transcription yet . so but there 's markers of some sort that have been happening automatically , postdoc a: yes . grad e: right . professor c: and those show up on the mixed signal ? postdoc a: oh , professor c: there 's a @ @ clicks ? grad e: n the t postdoc a: they show up on the separate ribbons . so you have a separate ribbon for each channel , professor c: there 're separate ribbons . grad e: right . postdoc a: and and i i it 'll be because it 's being segmented as channel at a time with his with thilo 's new procedure , then you do n't have the correspondence of the times across the bins uh across the ribbons uh you could have professor c: and is there a line moving across the waveform as it goes ? grad e: yes . postdoc a: yes . professor c: ok , so the way you 're imaging is they kind of play it , and they see oh this happened , then this happened , then and if it 's about right , they just sort of let it slide , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . right . professor c: and if it if it there 's a question on something , they stop and maybe look at the individual wave form . postdoc a: oh , well not not `` look `` . grad e: right . well , they would n't look at it at this point . they would just listen . professor c: they they might look at it , right ? grad e: well , the problem is that the the interface does n't really allow you to switch visuals . postdoc a: not very quickly . grad e: the problem is that that the tcl - tk interface with the visuals , it 's very slow to load waveforms . postdoc a: you can but it takes time . that 's it . professor c: uh - huh . grad e: and so when i tried that that was the first thing i tried when i first started it , postdoc a: oh , oh . visually . you can you can switch quickly between the audio , grad e: right ? postdoc a: but you just ca n't get the visual display to show quickly . so you have to it takes , i do n't know , three , four minutes to well , i mean , it takes it takes long enough phd d: yeah , it 's very slow to do that . postdoc a: it takes long enough cuz it has to reload the i i do n't know exactly what it 's doing frankly cuz but it t it takes long enough that it 's just not a practical alternative . phd d: that w grad e: well it it does some sort of shape pre - computation so that it can then scroll it quickly , grad g: but you can cancel that . phd d: yeah . grad e: yeah . but then you ca n't change the resolution or scroll quickly . grad g: oh , really ? postdoc a: now you could set up multiple windows , each one with a different signal showing , and then look between the windows . grad e: so . grad g: huh ! postdoc a: maybe that 's the solution . grad e: i mean , we we could do different interfaces , grad g: what if you preload them all ? grad e: right ? i mean , so so we could use like x waves instead of transcriber , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and it loads faster , certainly . grad g: what if you were to preload all the channels or or initially grad e: well that 's what i tried originally . grad g: like does n't grad e: so i i actually before , uh , dave gelbart did this , i did an interface which showed each waveform and ea a ribbon for each waveform , grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: but the problem with it is even with just three waveforms it was just painfully slow to scroll . so you just scroll a screen and it would , you know go `` kur - chunk ! `` grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: and so it just was not doable with the current interface . postdoc a: you know , i am thinking if we have a meeting with only four speakers and , you know , you could fire up a transcriber interface for , y you know , in different windows , multiple ones , one for each channel . and it 's sort of a a hack but i mean it would be one way of seeing the visual form . grad e: i think that if we decide that we need that they need to see the visuals , we need to change the interface so that they can do that . postdoc a: yeah . yeah . professor c: so phd d: that 's actually what i thought of , loading the chopped up waveforms , i mean , you know , that that would make it faster grad e: an but is n't grad g: hmm . grad e: the chopped up waveforms . phd b: the problem is if if anything 's cut off , you ca n't expand it from the chopped up phd d: so . grad e: is n't that grad g: right . phd d: right , but if you a at some point grad e: and would n't that be the same { comment } as the mixed signal ? phd d: no , i mean the individual channels that were chopped up that it 'd be nice to be able to go back and forth between those short segments . professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: cuz you do n't really nee like nine tenths of the time you 're throwing most of them out , but what you need are tho that particular channel , or that particular location , grad e: yeah . phd d: and , postdoc a: yeah . phd d: um , might be nice , cuz we save those out already , { comment } um , to be able to do that . but it wo n't work for ibm of course , it only works here cuz they 're not saving out the individual channels . postdoc a: well , i i do think that this this will be a doable procedure , professor c: yeah . postdoc a: and have them starting with mixed professor c: ok . postdoc a: and , um , then when they get into overlaps , just have them systematically check all the channels to be sure that there is n't something hidden from from audio view . grad e: yeah . yeah , hopefully , i mean the mixed signal , the overlaps are pretty audible because it is volume equalized . so i think they should be able to hear . the only problem is is , you know , counting how many and if they 're really correct or not . so , i do n't know . phd d: i do n't know that you can locate them very well from the mixed signal , grad e: right but but once once you know that they happen , you can at least listen to the close talking , phd d: but you would know that they were there , and then you would switch . right . and then you would switch into the other grad e: so . professor c: but right now , to do this limitation , the switching is going to be switching of the audio ? is what she 's saying . postdoc a: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: so grad e: right , so so professor c: so they 're using their ears to do these markings anyway . grad e: did dave did dave do that change where you can actually just click rather than having to go up to the menu to listen to the individual channels ? postdoc a: yes . yes . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: click um , grad e: i had suggested it before . i just do n't know whether he did it or not . postdoc a: i 'm not sure what click what click on the ribbon ? yeah , you can get that grad e: yeah . postdoc a: oh , oh , get you can get the , uh you can get it to switch audio ? uh , not last i tried , grad e: yeah . postdoc a: but , um , maybe he 's changed it again . grad e: we should get him to do that because , uh , i think that would be much , much faster than going to the menu . postdoc a: i disagree . there 's a reason i disagree , and that is that , uh , you it 's very good to have a dissociation between the visual and the audio . there 're times when i wan na hear the mixed signal , bu but i want to transcribe on the single channel . so right now grad e: then maybe just buttons down at the bottom next to it . postdoc a: maybe , i just do n't i do n't see that it 's a grad e: just something so that it 's not in the menu option so that you can do it much faster . postdoc a: well , i mean , that 's the i i i think that might be a personal style thing . i find it really convenient the way the way it 's set up right now . grad e: well it just seems to me that if you wan na quickly `` well was that jane , no , was that chuck , no , was that morgan `` , right now , you have to go up to the menu , and each time , go up to the menu , select it , listen to that channel then click below , and then go back to the menu , select the next one , and then click below . postdoc a: that 's fine . yeah , it 's true . grad e: so you can definitely streamline that with the i with the interface . postdoc a: yeah , it could be faster , but , you know , i mean , th in the ideal world yeah . grad e: what ? postdoc a: no i i agree that 'd be nice . yeah . ok . grad e: ok . professor c: so , um , done with that ? does any i forget , does anybody , uh , working on any any eurospeech submission related to this ? grad e: i would like to try to do something on digits but i just do n't know if we have time . i mean , it 's due next friday so we have to do the experiments and write the paper . so , i 'm gon na try , but , uh , we 'll just have to see . so actually i wan na get together with both andreas and , uh , uh , stephane with their respective systems . professor c: yeah . yeah there was that we that 's right , we had that one conversation about , uh , what what what did it mean for , uh , one of those speakers to be pathological , was it a grad e: right , and i have n't had s chance to sit down and listen . phd f: oh , i have n't i have n't listened to them either , grad e: i was going to do that this afternoon . phd f: but there must be something wrong , i mean , grad e: well , morgan and i were were having a debate { comment } about that . phd f: unless our grad e: whereas i think it it 's probably something pathologic and actually stephane 's results , i think confirm that . he s he did the aurora system also got very lousy average error , like fifteen or or , uh , fifteen to twenty percent average ? but then he ran it just on the lapel , and got about five or six percent word error ? so that that means to me that somewhere in the other recordings there are some pathological cases . but , you know , we th that may not be true . it may be just some of the segments they 're just doing a lousy job on . so i 'll i 'll listen to it and find out since you 'd actually split it up by segment . professor c: right . grad e: so i can actually listen to it . phd f: yeah . phd b: did you run the andreas the r sri recognizer on the digits ? grad e: oh , i thought he had sent that around to everyone , phd f: yeah . grad e: did you just sent that to me ? phd f: no , i d i did n't . grad e: oh . phd f: since i considered those preliminary , i did n't . phd b: i it was n't phd f: but , yeah , if you take grad e: it was bimodal . phd f: so if you yeah , it 's actually , um , it uh it was trimodal , actually grad e: oh , was it trimodal , ok . professor c: yeah . phd f: trimodal , so professor c: there 's zero , a little bit , and a lot . phd f: there were t there was there was one h one bump at ze around zero , which were the native speakers , professor c: yeah . phd b: zero percent error ? professor c: yeah . phd f: the non - pathological native speakers . professor c: y yeah . phd f: then there was another bump at , um , oh , like fifteen or something . phd b: this is error you 're talking about ? professor c: oh was it fifteen ? phd f: whe phd b: ok . professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah . phd f: yeah . those were the non - natives . and then there was another distinct bump at , like , a hundred , which must have been some problem . postdoc a: oh , wow ! oh , ok . phd f: i ca n't imagine that grad g: what is patho what do you mean by pathological ? grad e: just just something really wrong with grad g: i 'm sorry , i do n't grad e: a bug is what i mean , phd f: in the recording grad g: oh . grad e: so that it 's like grad g: oh , ok . phd f: and there was this one meeting , i forget which one it was , where like , uh , six out of the eight channels were all , like had a hundred percent error . grad g: i see . grad e: which probably means like there was a th the recording interface crashed , grad g: right . grad e: or there was a short you know , someone was jiggling with a cord phd f: but grad e: or , uh , i extracted it incorrectly , phd f: but grad e: it was labeled grad g: mm - hmm . grad e: it was transcribed incorrectly , something really bad happened , and i just have n't listened to it yet to find out what it was . grad g: ok . phd f: so , if i excluded the pathological ones , by definition , those that had like over ninety - five percent error rate , and the non - natives , then the average error rate was like one point four or something , professor c: what we 're calling . postdoc a: oh . oh . phd f: which which seemed reasonable given that , you know , the models were n't tuned for for it . grad g: hmm ! professor c: yeah . phd f: and the grammar was n't tuned either . phd b: and it did n't matter whether it was the lapel or whether it was the phd f: it was just a @ @ . i have n't split it up that way , phd d: but there 's no overlap during the digit readings , so it should n't really matter . phd f: but it would be phd b: yeah . phd f: right . grad g: right . professor c: no , but there 's a little difference , phd f: so it should grad e: there 's a lot . professor c: and we have n't looked at it for digits , grad e: yeah . professor c: right ? phd b: yeah , so i was curious about that . professor c: and so , cuz because what he was what i was saying when i looked at those things is it it i was almost gon na call it quadrimodal because because there was a whole lot of cases where it was zero percent . phd f: mm - hmm . professor c: they just plain got it all right . and then there and then there was another bunch that were couple percent or something . phd f: yeah . but if you p if you actually histogrammed it , and it was a nice uh , you know , it it was zero was the most of them , professor c: yeah . grad e: a normal . yeah . phd f: but then there were the others were sort of decaying from there . professor c: yeah , yeah . phd f: and then there was the bump for the non - natives and then the pathological ones , professor c: i see . i see . phd f: so . grad e: yeah , cuz some of our non - natives are pretty non - native . so . postdoc a: you did you have , uh , something in the report about , uh , about , uh , for f uh , forced alignment ? professor c: yeah . postdoc a: have you have you started on that ? phd f: oh , well , yeah , so i 've been struggling with the forced alignments . um . so the scheme that i drew on the board last time where we tried to , um allow reject models for the s speech from other speakers , um , most of the time it does n't work very well . so , um , and the i have n't done i mean , the only way to check this right now was for me to actually load these into x waves and , you know , plus the alignments , and s play them and see where the professor c: hmm . phd f: and it looks and so i looked at all of the utterances from you , chuck , in that one conversation , i do n't know which you probably know which one i mean , it 's where you were on the lapel and morgan was sitting next to you and we can hear everything morgan says . postdoc a: hmm . phd f: but and and some of what you i mean , you also appear quite a bit in that cross - talk . so , i actually went through all of those , there were i think fifty - five segments , um , in in x waves , and and sort of did a crude check , and more often than not , it it gets it wrong . so there 's either the beginning , mostly the beginning word , where th you , um , you know , chuck talks somewhere into the segment , but the first , um , word of what he says , often `` i `` but it 's very reduced `` i , `` that 's just aligned to the beginning of someone else 's speech , uh in that segment , which is cross - talk . so , um , i 'm still tinkering with it , but it might well be that we ca n't get clean alignments out of this out of those , uh , channels , so . professor c: unless maybe we do this , uh , um , cancellation business . phd d: right , but that 's i mean , that was our plan , phd f: yeah , right . phd d: but it 's clear from dan that this is not something you can do in a short amount of time . professor c: oh , the short amount of time thing , right . phd d: so so we you know , we had spent a lot of time , um , writing up the hlt paper and we wanted to use that , uh , kind of analysis , professor c: yeah . phd d: but the hlt paper has , you know , it 's a very crude measure of overlap . it 's not really something you could scientifically say is overlap , it 's just whether or not the , um , the segments that were all synchronized , whether there was some overlap somewhere . grad e: c high correlation . phd d: and , you know , that pointed out some differences , so he thought well if we can do something quick and dirty because dan said the cross - cancellation , it 's not straight - forward . if it were straight - forward then we would try it , but so , it 's sort of good to hear that it was not straight - forward , thinking if we can get decent forced alignments , then at least we can do sort of a overall report of what happens with actual overlap in time , but , um phd b: i did n't think that his message said it was n't straight - forward . grad e: well if we 'd just professor c: well phd b: i thought he 's just saying you have to look over a longer time window when you do it . grad e: um - hmm . phd d: and the but there are some issues of this timing , um , in the recordings professor c: yeah . phd b: right . phd d: and phd b: so you just have to look over longer time when you 're trying to align the things , you ca n't you ca n't just look grad e: well . are you talking about the fact that the recording software does n't do time - synchronous ? is that what you 're referring to ? professor c: grad e: that seems to me you can do that over the entire file and get a very accurate phd f: i do n't thi i d i do n't think that was the issue . phd d: i yeah , that was sort of a side issue . grad e: i did n't think so either . phd f: the issue was that you have to you have have you first have to have a pretty good speech detection on the individual channels . phd d: and it 's dynamic , so i guess it was more dynamic than some simple models would be able t to so so there are some things available , and i do n't know too much about this area where if people are n't moving around much than you could apply them , and it should work pretty well if you took care of this recording time difference . grad e: right , which should be pretty straight forward . phd d: which a at least is well defined , and grad e: yeah . phd d: um , but then if you add the dynamic aspect of adapting distances , then it was n't i guess it just was n't something that he could do quickly and not in time for us to be able to do something by two weeks from now , so . well less than a week . so um , so i do n't know what we can do if anything , that 's sort of worth , you know , a eurospeech paper at this point . phd b: well , andreas , how well did it work on the non - lapel stuff ? grad e: yeah . that 's what i was gon na say . phd f: i have n't checked those yet . grad e: c phd f: it 's very tedious to check these . phd b: mmm . phd f: um , we would really need , ideally , a transcriber to time mark the you know , the be at least the beginning and s ends { comment } of contiguous speech . um , and , you know , then with the time marks , you can do an automatic comparison of your of your forced alignments . phd b: because really the the at least in terms of how we were gon na use this in our system was to get an ideal an idea , uh , for each channel about the start and end boundaries . grad e: oh , mncm . phd f: mm - hmm . phd b: we do n't really care about like intermediate word boundaries , so phd f: no , that 's how i 've been looking at it . phd b: yeah . phd d: right . phd f: i mean , i do n't care that the individual words are aligned correctly , phd b: yeah . phd f: but you do n't wan na , uh , infer from the alignment that someone spoke who did n't . phd b: right , exactly . so that 's why i was wondering if it phd f: so , so phd b: i mean , maybe if it does n't work for lapel stuff , we can just not use that phd f: yeah . phd b: and phd f: i have n't i ha just have n't had the time to , um , do the same procedure on one of the so i would need a k i would need a channel that has a speaker whose who has a lot of overlap but s you know , is a non - lapel mike . and , um , where preferably , also there 's someone sitting next to them who talks a lot . grad e: hmm ! phd f: so , i grad e: so a meeting with me in it . phd f: maybe someone can help me find a good candidate and then i would be willing to phd b: we c you know what ? maybe the best way to find that would be to look through these . phd f: you know , hand phd b: cuz you can see the seat numbers , and then you can see what type of mike they were using . and so we just look for , you know , somebody sitting next to adam at one of the meetings phd d: actually y we can tell from the data that we have , phd f: from the insertions , maybe ? phd d: um , yeah , there 's a way to tell . phd f: fr fr from the phd d: it might not be a single person who 's always overlapping that person but any number of people , phd f: right . phd d: and , um , if you align the two hypothesis files across the channels , you know , just word alignment , you 'd be able to find that . so so i guess that 's sort of a last ther there 're sort of a few things we could do . one is just do like non - lapels if we can get good enough alignments . another one was to try to get somehow align thilo 's energy segmentations with what we have . but then you have the problem of not knowing where the words are because these meetings were done before that segmentation . but maybe there 's something that could be done . phd b: what what is why do you need the , um , the forced alignment for the hlt i mean for the eurospeech paper ? phd d: well , i guess i i wanted to just do something not on recognition experiments because that 's ju way too early , but to be able to report , you know , actual numbers . like if we if we had hand - transcribed pe good alignments or hand - checked alignments , then we could do this paper . it 's not that we need it to be automatic . but without knowing where the real words are , in time phd b: so it was to get it was to get more data and better to to squeeze the boundaries in . phd d: to to know what an overlap really if it 's really an overlap , or if it 's just a a a segment correlated with an overlap , phd b: ah , ok . yeah . phd d: and i guess that 's the difference to me between like a real paper and a sort of , promissory paper . so , um , if we d it might be possible to take thilo 's output and like if you have , um , like right now these meetings are all , grad e: ugh ! i forgot the digital camera again . phd d: um , grad e: every meeting ! phd d: you know , they 're time - aligned , so if these are two different channels and somebody 's talking here and somebody else is talking here , just that word , if thilo can tell us that there 're boundaries here , we should be able to figure that out grad e: mm - hmm . phd d: because the only thing transcribed in this channel is this word . but , um , you know , if there are things grad e: two words . phd d: yeah , if you have two and they 're at the edges , it 's like here and here , and there 's speech here , then it does n't really help you , so , um phd b: thilo 's wo n't put down two separate marks in that case phd d: well it w it would , but , um , we do n't know exactly where the words are because the transcriber gave us two words in this time bin grad e: thilo 's will . but . phd d: and we do n't really know , i mean , postdoc a: well it 's a merging problem . if you had a if you had a s if you had a script which would phd d: yeah it 's postdoc a: i 've thought about this , um , and i 've discussed i 've discussed it with thilo , phd d: i mean , if you have any ideas . i would postdoc a: um , the , i mean , i i in principle i could imagine writing a script which would approximate it to some degree , but there is this problem of slippage , grad e: well maybe maybe that will get enough of the cases to be useful . postdoc a: yeah . phd d: right . i mean , that that would be really helpful . that was sort of another possibility . grad e: you know s cuz it seemed like most of the cases are in fact the single word sorts , or at least a single phrase postdoc a: well they they can be stretched . grad e: in most of the bins . phd f: mmm . postdoc a: i would n't make that generalization cuz sometimes people will say , `` and then i `` and there 's a long pause phd d: yeah . postdoc a: and finish the sentence and and sometimes it looks coherent and and the i mean it 's it 's not a simple problem . but it 's really and then it 's coupled with the problem that sometimes , you know , with with a fricative you might get the beginning of the word cut off and so it 's coupled with the problem that thilo 's is n't perfect either . i mean , we 've i th it 's like you have a merging problem plus so merging plus this problem of , uh , not grad e: right . hmm ! postdoc a: y i i if the speech - nonspeech were perfect to begin with , the detector , that would already be an improvement , but that 's impossible , you know , i that 's too much to ask . phd d: right . grad e: yes . postdoc a: and so i and may you know , i mean , it 's i think that there always th there would have to be some hand - tweaking , but it 's possible that a script could be written to merge those two types of things . i 've i 've discussed it with thilo and i mean in terms of not him doing it , but we we discussed some of the parameters of that and how hard it would be to in principle to write something that would do that . phd d: i mean , i guess in the future it wo n't be as much as an issue if transcribers are using the tightened boundaries to start with , then we have a good idea of where the forced alignment is constrained to . postdoc a: well , it 's just , you know , a matter of we had the revolution we had the revolution of improved , uh , interface , um , one month too late , phd d: so i 'm no i do n't know if this grad e: oh . tools . postdoc a: but it 's like , you know , it 's wonderful to have the revolution , phd d: oh it 's it 's a postdoc a: so it 's just a matter of of , you know , from now on we 'll be able to have things channelized to begin with . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . and we 'll just have to see how hard that is . postdoc a: yeah , that 's right . grad e: so so whether the corrections take too much time . postdoc a: that 's right . grad e: i was just thinking about the fact that if thilo 's missed these short segments , that might be quite time - consuming for them to insert them . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: good point . phd d: but he he also can adjust this minimum time duration constraint and then what you get is noises mostly , postdoc a: yeah . grad e: spurious . phd d: but that might be ok , an grad e: it might be easier to delete something that 's wrong than to insert something that 's missing . phd d: right . and you can also see in the waveform exac grad e: what do you think , jane ? phd d: yeah . professor c: if you can feel confident that what the yeah , that there 's actually something phd d: yeah . professor c: that you 're not gon na miss something , grad e: yeah . cuz then then you just delete it , and you do n't have to pick a time . professor c: yeah . phd d: i think it 's postdoc a: well the problem is i you know i i it 's a it 's a really good question , and i really find it a pain in the neck to delete things because you have to get the mouse up there on the t on the text line and i and otherwise you just use an arrow to get down i mean , i it depends on how lar th there 's so many extra things that would make it one of them harder than the other , or or vice versa . it 's not a simple question . but , you know , i mean , in principle , like , you know , if one of them is easier then to bias it towards whichever one 's easier . grad e: yeah , i guess the semantics are n't clear when you delete a segment , right ? because you would say you would have to determine what the surroundings were . phd d: you could just say it 's a noise , though , and write , you know , a post - processor will just all you have to do is just grad e: if it 's really a noise . phd d: or just say it 's just put `` x , `` you know , like `` not speech `` or something , postdoc a: i think it 's easier to add than delete , frankly , phd d: and then you can get yeah , or postdoc a: because you have to , uh , maneuver around on the on both windows then . grad e: to add or to delete ? postdoc a: to delete . phd d: anyways , so i i guess grad e: ok . that maybe that 's an interface issue that might be addressable . postdoc a: it 's possible . grad e: but i think it 's the semantics that are that are questionable to me , that you delete something so let 's say someone is talking to here , and then you have a little segment here . well , is that part of the speech ? is it part of the nonspeech ? i mean , w what do you embed it in ? phd d: there 's something nice , though , about keeping , and this is probably another discussion , keeping the stuff that thilo 's detector detected as possible speech and just marking it as not speech than deleting it . because then when you align it , then the alignment can you can put a reject model or whatever , grad e: oh , i see . so then they could just like put oh that 's what you meant by just put an `` x `` there . phd d: and you 're consistent with th the automatic system , grad e: uh , that 's an interesting idea . phd d: whereas if you delete it grad e: so so all they so that all they would have to do is put like an `` x `` there . phd d: yeah , or some , you know , dummy reject mod grad e: so blank for blank for silence , `` s `` `` s `` for speech , `` x `` `` x `` for something else . phd d: whatever , yeah . that 's actually a better way to do it cuz the a the forced alignment will probably be more consistent than postdoc a: well , like , i think there 's a complication which is that that you can have speech and noise in s phd d: i mean if it 's just as easy , but postdoc a: uh , you know , on the same channel , the same speaker , so now sometimes you get a ni microphone pop and , uh , i mean , there 're these fuzzy hybrid cases , and then the problem with the boundaries that have to be shifted around . it 's not a simple not a simple problem . phd d: anyway , quick question , though , at a high level do people think , let 's just say that we 're moving to this new era of like using the , um , pre - segmented t you know , non - synchronous conversations , does it make sense to try to take what we have now , which are the ones that , you know , we have recognition on which are synchronous and not time - tightened , and try to get something out of those for sort of purposes of illustrating the structure and the nature of the meetings , or is it better to just , you know , forget that and tr i mean , it 's grad e: well , i think we 'll have to , eventually . and my hope was that we would be able to use the forced alignment to get it . phd d: right . that was everybody 's hope . grad e: but if we ca n't phd d: and maybe we can for the non - lapel , but grad e: but if we ca n't , then maybe we just have to phd d: is it worth if we ca n't then we can fake it even if we 're we report , you know , we 're wrong twenty percent of the time or ten percent of the time . grad e: well , i 'm thinking are you talking about for a paper , or are talking about for the corpus . phd d: uh uh , that 's a good question actually . grad e: i mean cuz for the corpus it would be nice if everything were phd d: actually that 's a good question because we 'd have to completely redo those meetings , and we have like ten of them now . grad e: we would n't have to re - do them , we would just have to edit them . postdoc a: well , and also , i mean , i still have n't i still have n't given up on forced alignment . phd d: no , you 're right , actually postdoc a: i think that when brian comes , this 'll be uh an interesting aspect to ask him as well b grad e: when postdoc a: when brian kingsbury comes . grad e: oh , brian . you s i thought you said ryan . and it 's like , `` who 's ryan ? `` postdoc a: yeah , good question . grad e: ok . postdoc a: well , ryan could come . phd d: uh , no , that 's a good point , though , because for feature extraction like for prosody or something , i mean , the meetings we have now , it 's a good chunk of data grad e: yep . phd d: we need to get a decent f ok . postdoc a: that 's what my hope has been , phd d: so we should at least try it even if we ca n't , postdoc a: and that 's what that 's what you know , ever since the the february meeting that i transcribed from last year , forced alignment has been on the on the table as a way of cleaning them up later . phd d: right ? grad e: on the table , right ? postdoc a: and and so i 'm hopeful that that 's possible . i know that there 's complication in the overlap sections and with the lapel mikes , phd f: there 's postdoc a: but phd f: yeah . phd d: i mean , we might be able , at the very worst , we can get transcribers to correct the cases where i mean , you sort of have a good estimate where these places are because the recognition 's so poor . right ? phd b: yeah , we were never just gon na go with these as the final alignments . phd d: and so you 're postdoc a: i agree . i agree . phd b: we were always gon na run them past somebody . phd d: yeah . postdoc a: absolutely . phd d: so we need some way to push these first chunk of meetings into a state where we get good alignments . phd f: i 'm probably going to spend another day or so trying to improve things by , um , by using , um , acoustic adaptation . um , the right now i 'm using the unadapted models for the forced alignments , and it 's possible that you get considerably better results if you , uh , manage to adapt the , uh , phone models to the speaker and the reject model to the to to all the other speech . um , so phd b: could you could you at the same time adapt the reject model to the speech from all the other channels ? professor c: that 's what he just said . grad e: that 's what he was saying . phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i just said . phd b: oh , not just the speech from that of the other people from that channel , phd f: right . phd b: but the speech from the a actual other channels . phd d: right . phd f: oh , oh , i see . um , professor c: oh . grad e: i do n't think so . i do n't think that would work , phd f: no , it grad e: right ? because you 'd a lot of it 's dominated by channel properties . phd f: th exactly . phd d: but what you do wan na do is take the , even if it 's klugey , take the segments the synchronous segments , the ones from the hlt paper , where only that speaker was talking . phd f: so you want to u phd d: use those for adaptation , cuz if you if you use everything , then you get all the cross - talk in the adaptation , and it 's just sort of blurred . phd f: that 's a good point . phd b: if you phd f: yep . phd d: and that we know , i mean , we have that . and it 's about roughly two - thirds , i mean , very roughly averaged . phd f: yeah . phd d: that 's not completely negligible . like a third of it is bad for adaptation or so . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: cool . i thought it was higher than that , that 's pr phd d: it really it depends a lot . this is just sort of an overall phd f: so . professor c: well i know what we 're not turning in to eurospeech , a redo of the hlt paper . grad e: right . professor c: that i do n't wan na do that , grad e: yeah , i 'm doing that for avios . professor c: but . phd d: yeah . but i think we 're oh , morgan 's talk went very well , i think . professor c: bleep . grad e: uh , `` bleep `` . yeah , really . phd d: i think morgan 's talk went very well it woke postdoc a: excellent . phd d: you know , it was really a well presented and got people laughing postdoc a: yeah . phd f: some good jokes in it ? grad e: especially the batteried meter popping up , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was hilarious . right when you were talking about that . professor c: you know , that wa that was the battery meter saying that it was fully charged , grad e: it 's full . yeah . professor c: yeah . postdoc a: you said , `` speaking about energy `` , or something . grad e: but that was funny . postdoc a: that was very nice . professor c: yeah . grad e: he he he was onto the bullet points about talking about the you know the little hand - held , and trying to get lower power and so on , phd f: po - low power grad e: and microsoft pops up a little window saying `` your batteries are now fully charged . `` postdoc a: that 's great . professor c: yeah , yeah , yeah . grad e: i 'm thinking about scripting that for my talk , you know , put put a little script in there to say `` your batteries are low `` right when i 'm saying that . professor c: yeah . yeah . no i mean , i in in your case , i mean , you were joking about it , but , i mean , your case the fact that your talking about similar things at a couple of conferences , it 's not these are conferences that have d really different emphases . whereas hlt and and eurospeech , pretty pretty pretty similar , so i i i ca n't see really just putting in the same thing , grad e: are too close , yeah . phd d: no , i d i do n't think that paper is really professor c: but phd d: the hlt paper is really more of a introduction - to - the - project paper , and , um professor c: yeah . grad e: yeah , for eurospeech we want some results if we can get them . phd d: well , yeah , it it 's probably would n't make sense , professor c: or some or some i mean , i would see eurospeech if we have some eurospeech papers , these will be paper p p uh , submissions . phd d: but professor c: these will be things that are particular things , aspects of it that we 're looking at , rather than , you know , attempt at a global paper about it . phd d: right , right . grad e: detail , yeah . overall . postdoc a: i did go through one of these meetings . i had , uh , one of the transcribers go through and tighten up the bins on one of the , uh , nsa meetings , and then i went through afterwards and double - checked it so that one is really very very accurate . phd d: oh . postdoc a: i men i mentioned the link . i sent you know that one ? phd d: oh , so grad g: the which one ? i 'm sorry . postdoc a: um , i 'm trying to remember i do n't remember the number off hand . grad e: those are all postdoc a: it 's one of the nsa 's . i sent email before the conference , before last week . grad g: oh , ok . postdoc a: bef - what i mean is wednesday , thursday . phd d: that might might have been the one one of the ones that we did . grad g: mm - hmm . postdoc a: i 'm sure that that one 's accurate , i 've been through it myself . phd d: so that might actually be useful but they 're all non - native speakers . phd f: so we could compare before and after grad g: ok . phd f: and see grad e: yeah . yeah , that 's what i was gon na say . the problem with those , they 're all german . phd f: oh , darn ! grad g: yeah , that 's the problem with the nsa speakers . phd d: and e and e and extremely hard to follow , like word - wise , grad e: so . phd d: i bet the transcri i mean , i have no idea what they 're talking about , grad g: yeah . postdoc a: i corrected it for a number of the words . phd d: so , postdoc a: i 'm sure that , um , they 're they 're accurate now . phd d: um , phd f: uh , actually i have to to go . phd d: i mean , this is tough for a language model probably grad g: right . phd d: but but that might be useful just for speech . professor c: well . grad e: ok , andreas is leaving leaving the building . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: see ya . professor c: see ya . i do n't think we 'll go much longer . grad e: um , oh , before you l go i guess it 's alright for you to talk a little without the mike i noticed you adjusting the mike a lot , did it not fit you well ? oh . postdoc a: well i won i noticed when you turned your head , it would it would tilt . grad e: maybe it was n't just tightened enough , or phd d: maybe the yeah , the s thing that you have tightened @ @ , phd b: actually if if you have a larger head , that mike 's got ta go farther away which means the the balance is gon na make it wan na tip down . phd d: oh . grad e: ok . anyway . professor c: yeah . ok , see ya . grad e: cuz , i 'm just thinking , you know , we were we 're we 've been talking about changing the mikes , uh , for a while , grad g: postdoc a: yeah . grad e: and if these are n't acoustically they seem really good , but if they 're not comfortable , we have the same problems we have with these stupid things . postdoc a: i think it 's com this is the first time i 've worn this , i find it very comfortable . grad e: i find it very comfortable too , but , uh , it looked like andreas was having problems , and i think morgan was saying it professor c: well , but i had it on i had it on this morning and it was fine . phd b: can i see that ? grad e: oh , oh you did wear it this morning ? professor c: yeah . grad e: ok , it 's off , so you can put it on . phd b: i yeah , i do n't want it on , i just i just want to , um , say what i think is a problem with this . if you are wearing this over your ears and you 've got it all the way out here , then the balance is gon na want to pull it this way . phd d: yeah . grad e: right . phd b: where as if somebody with a smaller head has it back here , grad e: it 's more balanced . phd b: right ? yeah . postdoc a: oh ! phd b: then it then it falls back this way so it 's phd d: so we have to grad e: well wh what it 's supposed to do is the backstrap is supposed to be under your crown , and so that should be should be postdoc a: ah . grad e: if it 's right against your head there , which is what it 's supposed to be , that balances it so it does n't slide up . phd b: so this is supposed to be under that little protuberance . grad e: yep , right right below if you feel the back of your head , you feel a little lump , phd b: yeah . grad e: um , and so it 's supposed to be right under that . phd b: so it 's really supposed to go more like this than like this . grad e: yes , exactly . phd b: but then is n't that going to well , i guess you can control that . grad e: that that that tilts , right ? in lots and lots of different ways . phd d: so i 'm not saying anything about bias towards small headsize , grad e: about heads ? phd d: but does seem , uh phd b: it would be an advantage . postdoc a: well , wonder if it 's if if he was wearing it over his hair instead of under his hair . professor c: well , we should we shou we should work on compressing the heads , and grad e: i think probably it was yeah . it probably just was n't tight enough to the back of his head . i mean , so the directions do talk about bending it to your size , which is not really what we want . phd b: the other thing that would do it would be to hang a five pound weight off the back . professor c: yeah phd d: right . professor c: that 's good ! postdoc a: what did you say ? phd d: a little , grad e: wh professor c: hang a five pound weight off the off the back . phd b: hang a five pound weight off the back . phd d: um , grad e: we did that professor c: weight . grad e: we at boeing i used i was doing augmented reality so they had head - mounts on , and we we had a little jury - rigged one with a welder 's helmet , phd b: counter - balance . grad e: and we had just a bag with a bunch of marbles in it as a counter - balance . professor c: or maybe this could be helpful just for evening the conversation between people . if people those who talk a lot have to wear heavier weights or something , and grad e: yeah ! professor c: and um , grad e: anyway . professor c: um , so , uh , what was i gon na say ? oh , yeah , i was gon na say , uh , i had these , uh , conversations with nist folks also while i was there and and , uh , um , so they they have their their plan for a room , uh , with , um , mikes in the middle of the table , and , uh , close - mounted mikes , grad e: yep . professor c: and they 're talking about close - mounted and lapels , just cuz phd d: and arrays , professor c: sort of and the array . grad e: and arrays , professor c: yeah , so they were phd d: which is the i interesting grad e: yep . and cameras . professor c: and yeah , like multiple multiple video cameras coverin covering every everybody every place in the room , phd d: and video , right . professor c: uh , the yeah the the mikes in the middle , the head - mounted mikes , the lapel mikes , the array , uh , with well , there 's some discussion of fifty - nine , grad e: fifty - nine elements . professor c: they might go down to fifty - seven because , uh , there is , uh , some pressure from a couple people at the meeting for them to use a kemar head . i forget what kemar , uh , stands for , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but what it is is it 's dummy head that is very specially designed , grad e: oh , that 's right . professor c: and and and , so what they 're actually doing is they 're really there 's really two recording systems . phd d: right . grad e: yep . phd d: that 's a great idea . professor c: so they may not be precisely synchronous , but the but there 's two two recording systems , one with , i think , twenty - four channels , and one with sixty - four channels . and the sixty - four channel one is for the array , but they 've got some empty channels there , and anyway they like they 're saying they may give up a couple or something if for for the kemar head if they go go with that . grad e: right . yeah , it is a good idea . professor c: so . grad e: yeah , h uh , j jonathan fiscus did say that , uh , they have lots of software for doing calibration for skew and offset between channels phd d: mm - hmm grad e: and that they 've found that 's just not a big deal . professor c: yeah . grad e: so . professor c: yeah , i 'm not too worried about that . i was thinking phd d: but they 're still planning to do like fake grad e: scenario - based . phd d: they have to do something like that , grad e: y right . phd d: right . grad e: their their legal issues wo n't allow them to do otherwise . professor c: yeah . grad e: but it sounded like they were pretty well thought out phd d: yeah , th that 's true . grad e: and they 're they 're gon na be real meetings , postdoc a: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's just that they 're with str with people who would not be meeting otherwise . phd b: did did they give a talk on this or was this informal ? phd d: mm - hmm . grad e: so . phd d: no . grad e: no . professor c: no , we just had some discussions , various discussions with them . grad e: it 's just informal . postdoc a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . yeah . grad e: yeah , i also sat and chatted with several of the nist folks . they seemed like a good group . phd b: what was the , um the paper by , um , lori lamel that you mentioned ? professor c: um , yeah , we sh we should just have you have you read it , but , i mea ba i i uh , we 've all got these little proceedings , postdoc a: mmm , yeah . professor c: but , um , basically , it was about , um , uh , going to a new task where you have insufficient data and using using data from something else , and adapting , and how well that works . uh , so in in fact it was pretty related to what liz and andreas did , uh , except that this was not with meeting stuff , it was with grad e: right . professor c: uh , like i think they s did n't they start off with broadcast news system ? and then they went to grad e: the - their broadcast news was their acoustic models and then all the other tasks were much simpler . professor c: yeah . grad e: so they were command and control and that sort of thing . professor c: ti - digits was one of them , and , uh , wall street journal . grad e: yep . phd b: what was their rough what was their conclusion ? grad e: yeah , read wall street journal . it works . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , it 's it 's a good paper , i mean professor c: yeah , yeah . grad e: yeah . yeah , that was one of the ones that i liked . phd d: bring the grad e: that it not only works , in some cases it was better , which i thought was pretty interesting , but that 's cuz they did n't control for parameters . so . professor c: probably . grad e: you know , the broadcast news nets were not nets , phd d: right . phd b: did they ever try going going the other direction from simpler task to more complicated tasks , grad e: acoustic models { comment } were a lot more complex . phd b: or ? grad e: n not in that paper . professor c: that might be hard . grad e: yeah , well , one of the big problems with that is is often the simpler task is n't fully does n't have all the phones in it , professor c: yeah . grad e: and that that makes it very hard . phd b: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah . grad e: but i 've done the same thing . i 've been using broadcast news nets for digits , professor c: yeah . grad e: like for the spr speech proxy thing that i did ? that 's what i did . professor c: yeah , sure . grad e: so . it works . professor c: yeah . yeah , and they have i mean they have better adaptation than we had than that that system , grad e: yep . professor c: so they um , grad e: you mean they have some . professor c: yeah , we should probably what would actually what we should do , uh , i have n't said anything about this , but probably the five of us should pick out a paper or two that that , uh , you know , got our interest , and we should go around the room at one of the tuesday lunch meetings and say , you know , what what was good about the conference , grad e: present . yep . do a trip report . professor c: yeah . phd d: well , the summarization stuff was interesting , i mean , i do n't know anything about that field , but for this proposal on meeting summarization , um , i mean , it 's sort of a far cry because they were n't working with meeting type data , but he got sort of an overview on some of the different approaches , grad e: right . phd b: do you remember who the groups were that we 're doing ? phd d: so . well there 're this was the last day , grad e: a lot of different ones . postdoc a: r i think mm - hmm . phd d: but , i mean , there 's that 's a huge field and probably the groups there may not be representative of the field , i i do n't know exactly that everyone submits to this particular conference , phd b: was were there folks from bbn presenting ? phd d: but yet there was , let 's see , this was on the last day , mitre , bbn , and , um , prager grad e: mitre , bbn , ibm . uh , postdoc a: maryland . phd d: um , i wo it was professor c: columbia have anything ? no . phd d: no it was grad e: was n't who who who did the order one ? phd d: this was wednesday morning . the sentence ordering one , was that barselou , and these guys ? grad e: ugh ! { comment } i 'm just so bad at that . postdoc a: oh . phd d: anyway , i i it 's in the program , i should have read it to remind myself , but that 's sort of useful and i think like when mari and katrin and jeff are here it 'd be good to figure out some kinds of things that we can start doing maybe just on the transcripts cuz we already have professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah , we do have word transcripts . phd d: you know , yeah . grad e: so . postdoc a: well , i like the idea that adam had of of , um , z maybe generating minutes based on some of these things that we have because it would be easy to to to do that just , you know , and and phd d: right . postdoc a: it has to be , though , someone from this group because of the technical nature of the thing . grad e: someone who actually does take notes , um , i 'm very bad at note - taking . phd d: but i think what 's interesting is there 's all these different evaluations , like just , you know , how do you evaluate whether the summary is good or not , grad e: i always write down the wrong things . postdoc a: i do take notes . phd d: and that 's what 's was sort of interesting to me is that there 's different ways to do it , grad e: a judge . phd d: and phd b: was sra one of the groups talking about summarization , no ? grad e: yep . phd d: hm - umm . no . postdoc a: it was an interesting session . one of those w grad e: and as i said , i like the microsoft talk on scaling issues in , uh , word sense disambiguation , phd d: yeah . grad e: that was interesting . professor c: yeah , that was an interesting discussion , grad e: the professor c: uh , i grad e: it it it was the only one it was the only one that had any sort of real disagreement about . phd d: the data issue comes up all the ti professor c: well , i did n't have as much disagreement as i would have liked , grad e: so . professor c: but i did n't wan na i wouldn i did n't wan na get into it because , uh , you know , it was the application was one i did n't know anything about , grad e: yep . professor c: uh , it just would have been , you know , me getting up to be argumentative , but but , uh , i mean , the missing thi so so what they were saying it 's one of these things is you know , all you need is more data , sort of but i mea i wh it @ @ that 's that 's dissing it , uh , improperly , i mean , it was a nice study . uh , they were doing this it was n't word - sense disambiguation , it was phd d: yeah yeah yeah grad e: well , it sort of was . professor c: was it w was it word - sense ? yes . grad e: but it was it was a very simple case of `` to `` versus `` too `` versus `` two `` and `` there `` , `` their `` , `` they 're `` phd d: and there and their and professor c: yeah , yeah . ok . phd d: and that you could do better with more data , i mean , that 's clearly statistically professor c: right . grad e: yeah . professor c: and so , what they did was they had these different kinds of learning machines , and they had different amounts of data , and so they did like , you know , eight different methods that everybody , you know , uh , argues about about , `` oh my my kind of learning machine is better than your kind of learning machine . `` and , uh , they were started off with a million words that they used , which was evidently a number that a lot of people doing that particular kind of task had been using . so they went up , being microsoft , they went up to a billion . and then they had this log scale showing a you know , and and naturally everything gets grad e: them being beep , { comment } they went off to a billion . professor c: they well , it 's a big company , i did n't i did n't mean it as a ne anything negative , grad e: yeah . professor c: but i i i phd d: you mean the bigger the company the more words they use for training ? grad e: well , i think the reason they can do that , is that they assumed that text that they get off the web , like from wall street journal , is correct , and edit it . professor c: yeah . grad e: so that 's what they used as training data . it 's just saying if it 's in this corpus it 's correct . professor c: ok . but , i mean , yes . of course there was the kind of effect that , you know , one would expect that uh that you got better and better performance with more and more data . um , but the the real point was that the the different learning machines are sort of all over the place , and and by by going up significantly in data you can have much bigger effect then by switching learning machines and furthermore which learning machine was on top kind of depended on where you were in this picture , so , phd b: this was my concern about the recognizer in aurora . professor c: uh , that phd b: that the differences we 're seeing in the front - end is b professor c: yeah . grad e: are irrelevant . phd b: are irrelevant once you get a real recognizer at the back - end . professor c: yeah . phd d: if you add more data ? or phd b: you know ? professor c: yeah . phd d: huh . professor c: yeah , could well be . so so , i mean , that was that was kind of , you know , it 's a good point , but the problem i had with it was that the implications out of this was that , uh , the kind of choices you make about learning machines were therefore irrelevant which is not at n t as for as i know in in tasks i 'm more familiar with @ @ is not at all true . what i what is is true is that different learning machines have different properties , and you wan na know what those properties are . and someone else sort of implied that well we s you know , a all the study of learning machine we still do n't know what those properties are . we do n't know them perfectly , but we know that some kinds use more memory and and some other kinds use more computation and some are are hav have limited kind of discrimination , but are just easy to use , and others are phd b: but does n't their conclusion just sort of you could have guessed that before they even started ? because if you assume that these learning things get better and better and better , professor c: you would guess phd b: then as you approach there 's a point where you ca n't get any better , right ? you get everything right . professor c: yeah . phd d: it 's just no grad e: but phd b: so they 're all approaching . grad e: no , but there was still a spread . they were n't all up they were n't converging . phd b: but what i 'm saying is that th they have to , as they all get better , they have to get closer together . professor c: it w grad e: they were all still spread . but they right , right . sure . but they had n't even come close to that point . all the tasks were still improving when they hit a billion . professor c: yeah . phd b: but they 're all going the same way , right ? so you have to get closer . professor c: eventually . o one would grad e: but they did n't get closer . phd b: oh they did n't ? professor c: well grad e: they just switched position . professor c: well that 's getting cl i mean , yeah , the spread was still pretty wide that 's th that 's true , grad e: yep . professor c: but but , uh , i think it would be irntu intu intuition that this would be the case , but , uh , to really see it and to have the intuition is quite different , i mean , i think somebody w w let 's see who was talking about earlier that the effect of having a lot more data is quite different in switchboard than it is in in broadcast news , phd d: well it 's different for different tasks . grad e: yeah . it was liz . yeah . professor c: yeah . phd d: so it depends a lot on whether , you know , it disambiguation is exactly the case where more data is better , right ? you 're you 're you can assume similar distributions , professor c: yeah . phd d: but if you wanted to do disambiguation on a different type of , uh , test data then your training data , then that extra data would n't generalize , grad e: right . phd d: so . professor c: right . grad e: but , i think one of their p they they had a couple points . w { comment } uh , i think one of them was that `` well , maybe simpler algorithms and more data are is better `` . less memory , faster operation , simpler . right ? because their simplest , most brain - dead algorithm did pretty darn well professor c: mm - hmm . grad e: when you got gave it a lot more data . and then also they were saying , `` well , m you have access to a lot more data . why are you sticking with a million words ? `` i mean , their point was that this million - word corpus that everyone uses is apparently ten or fifteen years old . and everyone is still using it , so . professor c: yeah . but anyway , i i i think it 's it 's just the the i it 's it 's it 's not really the conclusion they came to so much , as the conclusion that some of the , uh , uh , commenters in the crowd came up with grad e: but we could talk about this stuff , i think this would be fun to do . right . professor c: that , uh , you know , this therefore is further evidence that , you know , more data is really all you should care about , and that i thought was just kind of going too far the other way , grad e: machine - learning . professor c: and and the the , uh , one one person ga g g got up and made a a brief defense , uh , but it was a different kind of grounds , it was that that , uh , i w the reason people were not using so much data before was not because they were stupid or did n't realize data was important , but in fact th they did n't have it available . um , but the other point to make a again is that , uh , machine learning still does matter , but it it matters more in some situations than in others , and it and also there 's there 's not just mattering or not mattering , but there 's mattering in different ways . i mean , you might be in some situation where you care how much memory you 're using , or you care , you know , what recall time is , grad e: right . professor c: or you care , you know , and and grad e: or you only have a million words for your some new task . professor c: yeah , or or , uh phd d: or done another language , or i mean , you so there 's papers on portability and rapid prototyping and blah - blah - blah , grad e: yep . professor c: yeah . grad e: right . professor c: yeah . phd d: and then there 's people saying , `` oh , just add more data . `` professor c: and there 's cost ! phd d: so , these are like two different religions , basically . grad e: mm - hmm . cost . professor c: there 's just plain cost , grad e: yeah . that 's a big one . professor c: you know , so so these , i mean th the in the in the speech side , the thing that @ @ always occurs to me is that if you if you uh one person has a system that requires ten thousand hours to train on , and the other only requires a hundred , and they both do about the same because the hundred hour one was smarter , that 's that 's gon na be better . because people , i mean , there is n't gon na be just one system that people train on grad e: yep . professor c: and then that 's it for the r for all of time . i mean , people are gon na be doing other different things , and so it these these things matters matter . postdoc a: yeah , that 's it . grad e: yeah , so that 's one of the slides they put up . postdoc a: so , i mean , this was a very provocative slide . she put this up , and it was like this is this p people kept saying , `` can i see that slide again ? `` professor c: yeah . phd d: yeah , postdoc a: and then they 'd make a comment , and one person said , well - known person said , um , you know , `` before you dismiss forty - five years including my work `` phd d: yeah . grad e: forty - five years of research . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah . phd d: but th you know , the same thing has happened in computational linguistics , right ? you look at the acl papers coming out , and now there 's sort of a turn back towards , ok we 've learned statistic you know , we 're basically getting what we expect out of some statistical methods , and , you know , the there 's arguments on both sides , grad e: yep . phd d: so grad e: i think the matters is the thing that that was misleading . postdoc a: that was very offending , very offending . phd d: yeah , yeah . grad e: is that all all of them are based on all the others , right ? just , you you ca n't say phd b: maybe they should have said `` focus `` or something . professor c: right . grad e: yeah . i mean , so . and i 'm saying the same thing happened with speech recognition , right ? for a long time people were hand - c coding linguistic rules and then they discovered machine - learning worked better . and now they 're throwing more and more data and worrying perhaps worrying less and less about , uh , the exact details of the algorithms . phd d: and and then you hit this grad e: except when they have a eurospeech paper . postdoc a: yeah . professor c: yeah . grad e: anyway . professor c: anyway , tea is tea is , uh , starting . grad e: shall we read some digits ? are we gon na do one at a time ? or should we read them all agai at once again . professor c: let 's do it all at once . postdoc a: yeah , that 's good . professor c: we @ @ let 's try that again . phd d: yes ! so , and maybe we wo n't laugh this time also . grad e: ok . so remember to read the transcript number so that , uh , everyone knows that what it is . and ready ? postdoc a: yeah . grad e: three , two , one . professor c: boy , is that ever efficient . grad e: yep . that 's really fast . professor c: yeah . yeah .

future efforts will involve an attempt to get good forced alignments on digits data and generate a report for eurospeech'01 .

summarize the meeting </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

the meeting began with an update on the voice-unvoice detection . the professor suggested the solution might just be feeding the log magnitude of the spectrum into a simple neural net . the team then had a brief discussion about some confusing formula on the france telecom proposal . following this , the team talked about how to pick out the most important acoustic events . then , grad a introduced the team to phonological matchings that he was working on using support vector machines . the goal was to map mfcc 's to phonological features . the team concluded by discussing a potential bug which led to a significant difference between plp and mel cepstrum and the fft method that they were exploring .

summarize the discussion about voice-unvoice detection </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

the existing net for voice-unvoice had three outputs , voice , unvoice , and silence . it took fifteen features as inputs . the team discussed how energy measures could be incorporated to improve performance on this task . the nets took around a day to train , so the team could run more experiments . the current performance on the task was unsatisfactory .

what did the professor think about improving voice-unvoice detection ? </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

the professor explained that the task typically relied on r-one over r-zero as a measure . he thought that the team should explore the difference between the log fft and the log magnitude ff spectrum and the filter bank . these were fundamentally different measures which could help the model .

what did phd d think about voice-unvoice detection ? </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

phd d explained that voice-unvoice net took fifteen base features and three features of r as inputs . the r features were the variance of the difference between the two spectrums , variance of the auto-correlation function , and the first coefficient of the auto-correlation function . this method , however , was not that much better than the more typical method that the professor recalled .

summarize the discussion on support vector machines to map mfcc to phonological features </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

support vector machines were better at dealing with a lower amount of data , so they could do a reasonable job learning patterns in mfcc without too much work . they worked by finding an optimal separating plane . this was more efficient as the model picked only critical points as opposed to doing more computationally expensive k-means clustering .

what did the professor think about support vector machines for speech recognition ? </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

the professor recalled that people at mississippi state were using support vector machines for speech recognition by estimating probabilities . the results were not significant , but they were reasonable .

what did grad a explain about his vectors for his support vector machine ? </s> professor c: ok . so uh , he 's not here , phd d: so . professor c: so you get to phd d: yeah , i will try to explain the thing that i did this this week during this week . professor c: yeah . phd d: well eh you know that i work i begin to work with a new feature to detect voice - unvoice . phd e: mm - hmm . phd d: what i trying two mlp to to the with this new feature and the fifteen feature uh from the eh bus base system phd e: the the mel cepstrum ? phd d: no , satly the mes the mel cepstrum , the new base system the new base system . phd e: oh the phd d: yeah , we phd e: ok , the aurora system . phd d: yeah the aurora system with the new filter , vad or something like that . phd e: ok . phd d: and i 'm trying two mlp , one one that only have t three output , voice , unvoice , and silence , professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: and other one that have fifty - six output . the probabilities of the allophone . and i tried to do some experiment of recognition with that and only have result with with the mlp with the three output . and i put together the fifteen features and the three mlp output . and , well , the result are li a little bit better , but more or less similar . professor c: uh , i i 'm i 'm slightly confused . phd e: hmm . professor c: what what feeds the uh the three - output net ? phd d: voice , unvoice , and si professor c: no no , what feeds it ? what features does it see ? phd d: the feature the input ? the inputs are the fifteen the fifteen uh bases feature . professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the with the new code . and the other three features are r , the variance of the difference between the two spectrum , professor c: uh - huh . phd d: the variance of the auto - correlation function , except the the first point , because half the height value is r - zero professor c: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd d: and also r - zero , the first coefficient of the auto - correlation function . that is like the energy with these three feature , professor c: right . phd d: also these three feature . professor c: you would n't do like r - one over r - zero or something like that ? i mean usually for voiced - unvoiced you 'd do yeah , you 'd do something you 'd do energy phd d: yeah . professor c: but then you have something like spectral slope , which is you get like r - one ov over r - zero or something like that . phd d: uh yeah . phd e: what are the r 's ? professor c: r correlations . phd e: i 'm sorry i missed it . phd d: no , r c no . phd e: oh . phd d: auto - correlation ? yes , yes , the variance of the auto - correlation function that uses that professor c: ye - well that 's the variance , but if you just say `` what is `` i mean , to first order , um yeah one of the differences between voiced , unvoiced and silence is energy . another one is but the other one is the spectral shape . phd d: yeah , i i 'll the spectral shape , professor c: yeah , and so r - one over r - zero is what you typically use for that . phd d: yeah . no , i do n't use that i ca n't use professor c: no , i 'm saying that 's what people us typically use . phd d: mmm . professor c: see , because it because this is this is just like a single number to tell you um `` does the spectrum look like that or does it look like that `` . phd d: mm - hmm . grad a: oh . r r r - zero . professor c: right ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: so if it 's if it 's um if it 's low energy uh but the but the spectrum looks like that or like that , it 's probably silence . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: uh but if it 's low energy and the spectrum looks like that , it 's probably unvoiced . phd d: yeah . professor c: so if you just if you just had to pick two features to determine voiced - unvoiced , you 'd pick something about the spectrum like uh r - one over r - zero , um and r - zero phd d: mm - hmm , ok . professor c: or i i you know you 'd have some other energy measure and like in the old days people did like uh zero crossing counts . phd d: yeah , yeah . professor c: right . s s phd d: well , i can also th use this . professor c: yeah . um , phd d: bec - because the result are a little bit better but we have in a point that everything is more or less the similar more or less similar . professor c: yeah . but um phd d: it 's not quite better . professor c: right , but it seemed to me that what you were what you were getting at before was that there is something about the difference between the original signal or the original fft and with the filter which is what and the variance was one take uh on it . phd d: yeah , i used this too . professor c: right . but it it could be something else . suppose you did n't have anything like that . then in that case , if you have two nets , alright , and this one has three outputs , and this one has f phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: whatever , fifty - six , or something , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: if you were to sum up the probabilities for the voiced and for the unvoiced and for the silence here , we 've found in the past you 'll do better at voiced - unvoiced - silence than you do with this one . so just having the three output thing does n't does n't really buy you anything . the issue is what you feed it . phd d: yeah . yeah , i have yeah . professor c: so uh phd d: no phd e: so you 're saying take the features that go into the voiced - unvoiced - silence net and feed those into the other one , as additional inputs , rather than having a separate professor c: w w well that 's another way . phd d: yeah . professor c: that was n't what i was saying but yeah that 's certainly another thing to do . no i was just trying to say if you b if you bring this into the picture over this , what more does it buy you ? phd e: mmm . professor c: and what i was saying is that the only thing i think that it buys you is um based on whether you feed it something different . and something different in some fundamental way . and so the kind of thing that that she was talking about before , was looking at something uh ab um something uh about the difference between the the uh um log fft uh log power uh and the log magnitude uh f f - spectrum uh and the um uh filter bank . phd d: yeah . professor c: and so the filter bank is chosen in fact to sort of integrate out the effects of pitch and she 's saying you know trying so the particular measure that she chose was the variance of this m of this difference , but that might not be the right number . phd d: mm - hmm . maybe . professor c: right ? i mean maybe there 's something about the variance that 's that 's not enough or maybe there 's something else that that one could use , but i think that , for me , the thing that that struck me was that uh you wan na get something back here , so here 's here 's an idea . uh what about it you skip all the all the really clever things , and just fed the log magnitude spectrum into this ? phd d: ah i 'm sorry . professor c: this is f you have the log magnitude spectrum , and you were looking at that and the difference between the filter bank and and c c computing the variance . phd d: yeah . mm - hmm . professor c: that 's a clever thing to do . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: what if you stopped being clever ? and you just took this thing in here because it 's a neural net and neural nets are wonderful phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: and figure out what they can what they most need from things , and i mean that 's what they 're good at . phd d: yeah . professor c: so i mean you 're you 're you 're trying to be clever and say what 's the statistic that should we should get about this difference but uh in fact , you know maybe just feeding this in or or feeding both of them in phd e: hmm . professor c: you know , another way , saying let it figure out what 's the what is the interaction , especially if you do this over multiple frames ? phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: then you have this over time , and and both kinds of measures and uh you might get uh something better . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: um . phd e: so so do n't uh do n't do the division , but let the net have everything . professor c: that 's another thing you could do yeah . yeah . phd d: yeah . professor c: um . i mean , it seems to me , if you have exactly the right thing then it 's better to do it without the net because otherwise you 're asking the net to learn this you know , say if you wanted to learn how to do multiplication . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i mean you could feed it a bunch of s you could feed two numbers that you wanted to multiply into a net and have a bunch of nonlinearities in the middle and train it to get the product of the output and it would work . but , it 's kind of crazy , cuz we know how to multiply and you you 'd be you know much lower error usually if you just multiplied it out . but suppose you do n't really know what the right thing is . and that 's what these sort of dumb machine learning methods are good at . so . um . anyway . it 's just a thought . phd e: how long does it take , carmen , to train up one of these nets ? phd d: oh , not too much . phd e: yeah . phd d: mmm , one day or less . phd e: hmm . professor c: yeah , it 's probably worth it . grad a: what are what are your f uh frame error rates for for this ? phd d: eh fifty - f six uh no , the frame error rate ? grad a: o phd d: fifty - six i think . professor c: is that maybe that 's accuracy ? phd d: percent . grad a: fif - fifty - six percent accurate for v voice - unvoice phd d: the accuracy . mm - hmm . no for , yes f i do n't remember for voice - unvoice , grad a: oh , ok . phd d: maybe for the other one . grad a: ok . professor c: yeah , voiced - unvoiced hopefully would be a lot better . phd d: for voiced . i do n't reme grad a: should be in nineties somewhere . phd d: better . maybe for voice - unvoice . grad a: right . phd d: this is for the other one . i should i ca n't show that . grad a: ok . phd d: but i think that fifty - five was for the when the output are the fifty - six phone . grad a: mm - hmm . phd d: that i look in the with the other nnn the other mlp that we have are more or less the same number . silence will be better but more or less the same . professor c: i think at the frame level for fifty - six that was the kind of number we were getting for for uh um reduced band width uh stuff . phd d: i think that i i i think that for the other one , for the three output , is sixty sixty - two , sixty three more or less . grad a: mm - hmm . professor c: that 's all ? phd d: it 's yeah . professor c: that 's pretty bad . phd d: yeah , because it 's noise also . grad a: oh yeah . professor c: aha ! phd d: and we have professor c: aha ! yeah . yeah . ok . phd d: i know . professor c: but even i in oh yeah , in training . still , uh . well actually , so this is a test that you should do then . um , if you 're getting fifty - six percent over here , uh that 's in noise also , right ? phd d: yeah , yeah , yeah . professor c: oh ok . if you 're getting fifty - six here , try adding together the probabilities of all of the voiced phones here and all of the unvoiced phones phd d: will be professor c: and see what you get then . phd d: yeah . professor c: i bet you get better than sixty - three . phd d: well i do n't know , but i th i i think that we i have the result more or less . maybe . i do n't know . i do n't i 'm not sure but i remember @ @ that i ca n't show that . professor c: ok , but that 's a that is a a good check point , you should do that anyway , phd d: yeah . professor c: ok ? given this this uh regular old net that 's just for choosing for other purposes , uh add up the probabilities of the different subclasses and see see how well you do . uh and that you know anything that you do over here should be at least as good as that . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: i will do that . but phd e: the targets for the neural net , uh , they come from forced alignments ? phd d: uh , { comment } no . grad a: timit canonical ma mappings . phd d: timit . professor c: oh . so , this is trained on timit . phd e: ah ! ok . grad a: yeah , noisy timit . phd d: yeah . professor c: ok . phd d: yeah this for timit . professor c: but noisy timit ? grad a: right . phd d: noisy timit . we have noisy timit with the noise of the the ti - digits . and now we have another noisy timit also with the noise of uh italian database . professor c: i see . yeah . well there 's gon na be it looks like there 's gon na be a noisy uh some large vocabulary noisy stuff too . somebody 's preparing . phd e: really ? professor c: yeah . i forget what it 'll be , resource management , wall street journal , something . some some read task actually , that they 're preparing . grad a: hmm ! phd e: for what for aurora ? professor c: yeah . phd e: oh ! professor c: yeah , so the uh uh , the issue is whether people make a decision now based on what they 've already seen , or they make it later . and one of the arguments for making it later is let 's make sure that whatever techniques that we 're using work for something more than than connected digits . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . phd e: when are they planning when would they do that ? professor c: mmm , i think late uh i think in the summer sometime . phd e: hmm . professor c: so . ok , thanks . phd d: this is the work that i did during this date professor c: uh - huh . phd d: and also mmm i h hynek last week say that if i have time i can to begin to to study well seriously the france telecom proposal professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: to look at the code and something like that to know exactly what they are doing because maybe that we can have some ideas professor c: mm - hmm . phd d: but not only to read the proposal . look insi look i carefully what they are doing with the program @ @ and i begin to to work also in that . but the first thing that i do n't understand is that they are using r - the uh log energy that this quite i do n't know why they have some constant in the expression of the lower energy . i do n't know what that means . phd e: they have a constant in there , you said ? phd d: yeah . professor c: oh , at the front it says uh `` log energy is equal to the rounded version of sixteen over the log of two `` phd d: this yeah . professor c: uh . uh times the phd d: then maybe i can understand . professor c: well , this is natural log , and maybe it has something to do with the fact that this is i i have no idea . phd e: is that some kind of base conversion , or ? professor c: yeah , that 's what i was thinking , but but um , then there 's the sixty - four , uh , i do n't know . phd d: because maybe they 're the threshold that they are using on the basis of this value phd e: experimental results . grad a: mc - mcdonald 's constant . phd d: i do n't know exactly , because well th i thought maybe they have a meaning . but i do n't know what is the meaning of take exactly this value . professor c: yeah , it 's pretty funny looking . phd e: so they 're taking the number inside the log and raising it to sixteen over log base two . professor c: i do n't know . yeah , i um right . sixteen over { comment } two . phd e: does it have to do with those sixty - fours , or ? professor c: um . if we ignore the sixteen , the natural log of t one over the natural log of two times the natu i do n't know . well , maybe somebody 'll think of something , phd e: professor c: but this is uh it may just be that they they want to have for very small energies , they want to have some kind of a phd d: yeah , the e the effect i do n't @ @ i can understand the effect of this , no ? because it 's to to do something like that . professor c: well , it says , since you 're taking a natural log , it says that when when you get down to essentially zero energy , this is gon na be the natural log of one , which is zero . phd d: no ? mm - hmm . professor c: so it 'll go down to uh to the natural log being so the lowest value for this would be zero . so y you 're restricted to being positive . and this sort of smooths it for very small energies . uh , why they chose sixty - four and something else , that was probably just experimental . and the the the constant in front of it , i have no idea . phd d: yeah . professor c: um phd d: well . i i will look to try if i move this parameter in their code what happens , maybe everything is maybe they tres hole are on basis of this . professor c: uh i mean it they they probably have some fi particular s fixed point arithmetic that they 're using , phd d: i do n't know . professor c: and then it just phd e: yeah , i was just gon na say maybe it has something to do with hardware , professor c: yeah . phd e: something they were doing . professor c: yeah , i mean that they 're s probably working with fixed point or integer or something . i think you 're supposed to on this stuff anyway , and and so maybe that puts it in the right realm somewhere . phd e: well it just , yeah , puts it in the right range , or professor c: yeah . i think , given at the level you 're doing things in floating point on the computer , i do n't think it matters , would be my guess , phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: but . phd d: i this more or less anything professor c: yeah . ok , and wh when did stephane take off ? he took off phd d: i think that stephane will arrive today or tomorrow . professor c: oh , he was gone these first few days , and then he 's here for a couple days before he goes to salt lake city . phd d: mm - hmm . professor c: ok . phd d: he 's i think that he is in las vegas or something like that . professor c: yeah . yeah . so he 's he 's going to icassp which is good . i i do n't know if there are many people who are going to icassp phd d: yeah . professor c: so so i thought , make sure somebody go . phd d: yeah . phd e: do have have people sort of stopped going to icassp in recent years ? professor c: um , people are less consistent about going to icassp and i think it 's still it 's still a reasonable forum for students to to present things . uh , it 's i think for engineering students of any kind , i think it 's it 's if you have n't been there much , it 's good to go to , uh to get a feel for things , a range of things , not just speech . uh . but i think for for sort of dyed - in - the - wool speech people , um i think that icslp and eurospeech are much more targeted . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh . and then there 's these other meetings , like hlt and and uh asru phd e: professor c: so there 's there 's actually plenty of meetings that are really relevant to to uh computational uh speech processing of one sort or another . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um . so . i mean , i mostly just ignored it because i was too busy and did n't get to it . so uh wan na talk a little bit about what we were talking about this morning ? grad a: oh ! um uh yeah . professor c: just briefly , or or anything else ? grad a: so . i i guess some of the progress , i i 've been getting a getting my committee members for the quals . and um so far i have morgan and hynek , mike jordan , and i asked john ohala and he agreed . yeah . yeah . phd e: cool . grad a: so i 'm i i just need to ask um malek . one more . um . tsk . then uh i talked a little bit about um continuing with these dynamic ev um acoustic events , and um we 're we 're we 're thinking about a way to test the completeness of a a set of um dynamic uh events . uh , completeness in the in the sense that um if we if we pick these x number of acoustic events , do they provide sufficient coverage for the phones that we 're trying to recognize or or the f the words that we 're gon na try to recognize later on . and so morgan and i were uh discussing um s uh s a form of a cheating experiment where we get um we have uh um a chosen set of features , or acoustic events , and we train up a hybrid um system to do phone recognition on timit . so i i the idea is if we get good phone recognition results , using um these set of acoustic events , then um that that says that these acoustic events are g sufficient to cover a set of phones , at least found in timit . um so i it would be a a measure of `` are we on the right track with with the the choices of our acoustic events `` . um , so that 's going on . and also , just uh working on my uh final project for jordan 's class , uh which is professor c: actually , let me grad a: yeah . professor c: hold that thought . grad a: ok , sure . professor c: let me back up while we 're still on it . the the other thing i was suggesting , though , is that given that you 're talking about binary features , uh , maybe the first thing to do is just to count and uh count co - occurrences and get probabilities for a discrete hmm cuz that 'd be pretty simple because it 's just say , if you had ten ten events , uh that you were counting , uh each frame would only have a thousand possible values for these ten bits , and uh so you could make a table that would say , if you had thirty - nine phone categories , that would be a thousand by thirty - nine , and just count the co - occurrences and divide them by the the uh uh uh occ uh count the co - occurrences between the event and the phone and divide them by the number of occurrences of the phone , and that would give you the likelihood of the of the event given the phone . and um then just use that in a very simple hmm and uh you could uh do phone recognition then and uh would n't have any of the issues of the uh training of the net or i mean , it 'd be on the simple side , but phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: uh um you know , if uh uh the example i was giving was that if if you had um onset of voicing and and end of voicing as being two kinds of events , then if you had those a all marked correctly , and you counted co - occurrences , you should get it completely right . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so . um but you 'd get all the other distinctions , you know , randomly wrong . i mean there 'd be nothing to tell you that . so um uh if you just do this by counting , then you should be able to find out in a pretty straightforward way whether you have a sufficient uh set of events to to do the kind of level of of uh classification of phones that you 'd like . so that was that was the idea . and then the other thing that we were discussing was was um ok , how do you get the your training data . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: cuz uh the switchboard transcription project uh uh you know was half a dozen people , or so working off and on over a couple years , and uh similar similar amount of data to what you 're talking about with timit training . so , it seems to me that the only reasonable starting point is uh to automatically translate the uh current timit markings into the markings you want . and uh it wo n't have the kind of characteristic that you 'd like , of catching funny kind of things that maybe are n't there from these automatic markings , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but but uh it 's uh phd e: it 's probably a good place to start . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah . professor c: yeah and a short short amount of time , just to again , just to see if that information is sufficient to uh determine the phones . phd e: mm - hmm . hmm . professor c: so . phd e: yeah , you could even then to to get an idea about how different it is , you could maybe take some subset and you know , go through a few sentences , mark them by hand and then see how different it is from you know , the canonical ones , professor c: right . phd e: just to get an idea a rough idea of h if it really even makes a difference . professor c: you can get a little feeling for it that way , yeah that is probably right . phd e: yeah . professor c: i mean uh my my guess would be that this is since timit 's read speech that this would be less of a big deal , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: if you went and looked at spontaneous speech it 'd be more more of one . phd e: right . right . professor c: and the other thing would be , say , if you had these ten events , you 'd wan na see , well what if you took two events or four events or ten events or t and you know , and and hopefully there should be some point at which having more information does n't tell you really all that much more about what the phones are . phd e: mm - hmm . you could define other events as being sequences of these events too . professor c: uh , you could , but the thing is , what he 's talking about here is a uh a translation to a per - frame feature vector , so there 's no sequence in that , i think . i think it 's just a phd e: unless you did like a second pass over it or something after you 've got your professor c: yeah , but we 're just talking about something simple here , yeah , to see if phd e: yeah . yeah , yeah . yeah . i 'm adding complexity . professor c: yeah . just you know . the idea is with a with a very simple statistical structure , could you could you uh at least verify that you 've chosen features that are sufficient . phd e: yeah . professor c: ok , and you were saying something starting to say something else about your your class project , or ? grad a: oh . yeah th um . professor c: yeah . grad a: so for my class project i 'm um i 'm tinkering with uh support vector machines ? something that we learned in class , and uh um basically just another method for doing classification . and so i 'm gon na apply that to um compare it with the results by um king and taylor who did um these um using recurrent neural nets , they recognized um a set of phonological features um and made a mapping from the mfcc 's to these phonological features , so i 'm gon na do a similar thing with with support vector machines and see if phd e: so what 's the advantage of support vector machines ? what grad a: um . so , support vector machines are are good with dealing with a less amount of data phd e: hmm . grad a: and um so if you if you give it less data it still does a reasonable job in learning the the patterns . phd e: hmm . grad a: um and um professor c: i guess it yeah , they 're sort of succinct , and and they uh grad a: yeah . phd e: does there some kind of a distance metric that they use or how do they for cla what do they do for classification ? grad a: um . right . so , the the simple idea behind a support vector machine is um , you have you have this feature space , right ? and then it finds the optimal separating plane , um between these two different um classes , phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad a: and um and so um , what it i at the end of the day , what it actually does is it picks those examples of the features that are closest to the separating boundary , and remembers those phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and and uses them to recreate the boundary for the test set . so , given these um these features , or or these these examples , um , critical examples , which they call support f support vectors , then um given a new example , if the new example falls um away from the boundary in one direction then it 's classified as being a part of this particular class phd e: oh . grad a: and otherwise it 's the other class . phd e: so why save the examples ? why not just save what the boundary itself is ? grad a: mm - hmm . um . hmm . let 's see . uh . yeah , that 's a good question . i yeah . professor c: that 's another way of doing it . right ? so so it i mean i i guess it 's phd e: mmm . sort of an equivalent . professor c: you know , it it goes back to nearest - neighbor sort of thing , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: right ? um , i i if is it eh w when is nearest - neighbor good ? well , nearest - neighbor good is good if you have lots and lots of examples . um but of course if you have lots and lots of examples , then it can take a while to to use nearest - neighbor . there 's lots of look ups . so a long time ago people talked about things where you would have uh a condensed nearest - neighbor , where you would you would you would pick out uh some representative examples which would uh be sufficient to represent to to correctly classify everything that came in . phd e: oh . mm - hmm . professor c: i i think s i think support vector stuff sort of goes back to to that kind of thing . um . phd e: i see . so rather than doing nearest neighbor where you compare to every single one , you just pick a few critical ones , and professor c: yeah . phd e: hmm . professor c: and th the you know , um neural net approach uh or gaussian mixtures for that matter are sort of fairly brute force kinds of things , where you sort of you predefine that there is this big bunch of parameters and then you you place them as you best can to define the boundaries , and in fact , as you know , these things do take a lot of parameters and and uh if you have uh only a modest amount of data , you have trouble uh learning them . um , so i i guess the idea to this is that it it is reputed to uh be somewhat better in that regard . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: right . i it can be a a reduced um parameterization of of the the model by just keeping certain selected examples . phd e: hmm . grad a: yeah . so . professor c: but i do n't know if people have done sort of careful comparisons of this on large tasks or anything . maybe maybe they have . i do n't know . grad a: yeah , i do n't know either . professor c: yeah . grad b: s do you get some kind of number between zero and one at the output ? grad a: actually you do n't get a you do n't get a nice number between zero and one . you get you get either a zero or a one . um , uh there are there are pap well , basically , it 's it 's um you you get a distance measure at the end of the day , and then that distance measure is is um is translated to a zero or one . um . professor c: but that 's looking at it for for classification for binary classification , grad a: that 's for classification , right . professor c: right ? phd e: and you get that for each class , you get a zero or a one . grad a: right . professor c: but you have the distances to work with . grad a: you have the distances to work with , professor c: cuz actually mississippi state people did use support vector machines for uh uh speech recognition and they were using it to estimate probabilities . grad a: yeah . yeah . yeah , they they had a had a way to translate the distances into into probabilities with the with the simple um uh sigmoidal function . professor c: yeah , and d did they use sigmoid or a softmax type thing ? grad a: um yeah , professor c: and did n't they like exponentiate or something grad a: there 's some there 's like one over one plus the exponential or something like that . professor c: and then divide by the sum of them , or ? oh it i oh , so it is a sigmoidal . grad a: yeah . professor c: ok . alright . phd e: did the did they get good results with that ? professor c: i mean , they 're ok , i i do n't i do n't think they were earth earth shattering , but i think that uh this was a couple years ago , phd e: hmm . professor c: i remember them doing it at some meeting , and and um i do n't think people were very critical because it was interesting just to to try this and you know , it was the first time they tried it , so so the you know , the numbers were not incredibly good phd e: hmm . professor c: but there 's you know , it was th reasonable . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: i i do n't remember anymore . i do n't even remember what the task was , it { comment } was broadcast news , or something . i do n't know . phd e: hmm . grad a: right . grad b: uh s so barry , if you just have zero and ones , how are you doing the speech recognition ? grad a: oh i 'm not do i 'm not planning on doing speech recognition with it . i 'm just doing detection of phonological features . grad b: oh . ok . grad a: so uh for example , this this uh feature set called the uh sound patterns of english um is just a bunch of um binary valued features . let 's say , is this voicing , or is this not voicing , is this sonorants , not sonorants , and stuff like that . grad b: ok . grad a: so . phd e: did you find any more mistakes in their tables ? grad a: oh ! uh i have n't gone through the entire table , yet . yeah , yesterday i brought chuck the table and i was like , `` wait , this is is the mapping from n to to this phonological feature called um `` coronal `` , is is should it be should n't it be a one ? or should it should it be you know coronal instead of not coronal as it was labelled in the paper ? `` so i ha have n't hunted down all the all the mistakes yet , professor c: uh - huh . grad a: but professor c: but a as i was saying , people do get probabilities from these things , grad b: ok . professor c: and and uh we were just trying to remember how they do , but people have used it for speech recognition , and they have gotten probabilities . so they have some conversion from these distances to probabilities . grad b: ok . grad a: right , yeah . professor c: there 's you have you have the paper , right ? the mississippi state paper ? grad a: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor c: yeah , if you 're interested y you could look , grad b: and ok . ok . grad a: yeah , i can i can show you i professor c: yeah . grad a: yeah , our phd e: so in your in in the thing that you 're doing , uh you have a vector of ones and zeros for each phone ? grad a: mm - hmm . uh , is this the class project , or ? phd e: yeah . grad a: ok . um phd e: is that what you 're grad a: right , { comment } right , right f so for every phone there is there is a um a vector of ones and zeros f uh corresponding to whether it exhibits a particular phonological feature or not . phd e: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . and so when you do your wh i 'm what is the task for the class project ? to come up with the phones ? grad a: um phd e: or to come up with these vectors to see how closely they match the phones , grad a: oh . right , um to come up with a mapping from um mfcc 's or s some feature set , um to uh w to whether there 's existence of a particular phonological feature . phd e: or ? mm - hmm . grad a: and um yeah , basically it 's to learn a mapping from from the mfcc 's to uh phonological features . is it did that answer your question ? phd e: i think so . grad a: ok . c phd e: i guess i mean , uh i 'm not sure what you what you 're what you get out of your system . do you get out a uh a vector of these ones and zeros and then try to find the closest matching phoneme to that vector , grad a: mm - hmm . oh . phd e: or ? grad a: no , no . i 'm not i 'm not planning to do any any phoneme mapping yet . just it 's it 's basically it 's it 's really simple , basically a detection of phonological features . phd e: uh - huh . grad a: yeah , phd e: i see . grad a: and um cuz the uh so king and and taylor um did this with uh recurrent neural nets , phd e: yeah . grad a: and this i their their idea was to first find a mapping from mfcc 's to uh phonological features phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: and then later on , once you have these phonological features , then uh map that to phones . phd e: mm - hmm . grad a: so i 'm i 'm sort of reproducing phase one of their stuff . phd e: mmm . so they had one recurrent net for each particular feature ? grad a: right . right . right . right . phd e: i see . i wo did they compare that i mean , what if you just did phone recognition and did the reverse lookup . grad a: uh . phd e: so you recognize a phone and which ever phone was recognized , you spit out it 's vector of ones and zeros . grad a: mm - hmm . uh . professor c: i expect you could do that . phd e: i mean uh professor c: that 's probably not what he 's going to do on his class project . yeah . phd e: yeah . no . grad a: yeah . professor c: so um have you had a chance to do this um thing we talked about yet with the uh um phd e: insertion penalty ? professor c: uh . no actually i was going a different that 's a good question , too , but i was gon na ask about the the um changes to the data in comparing plp and mel cepstrum for the sri system . phd e: uh . well what i 've been `` changes to the data `` , i 'm not sure i professor c: right . so we talked on the phone about this , that that there was still a difference of a of a few percent phd e: yeah . right . professor c: and you told me that there was a difference in how the normalization was done . and i was asking if you were going to do redo it uh for plp with the normalization done as it had been done for the mel cepstrum . phd e: mm - hmm . uh right , no i have n't had a chance to do that . professor c: ok . phd e: what i 've been doing is uh trying to figure out it just seems to me like there 's a um well it seems like there 's a bug , because the difference in performance is it 's not gigantic but it 's big enough that it it seems wrong . professor c: yeah , i agree , but i thought that the normalization difference was one of the possibilities , phd e: and yeah , but i do n't i 'm not professor c: right ? phd e: yeah , i guess i do n't think that the normalization difference is gon na account for everything . professor c: ok . phd e: so what i was working on is um just going through and checking the headers of the wavefiles , to see if maybe there was a um a certain type of compression or something that was done that my script was n't catching . so that for some subset of the training data , uh the the the features i was computing were junk . professor c: ok . phd e: which would you know cause it to perform ok , but uh , you know , the the models would be all messed up . so i was going through and just double - checking that kind of think first , to see if there was just some kind of obvious bug in the way that i was computing the features . professor c: mm - hmm . i see . ok . phd e: looking at all the sampling rates to make sure all the sampling rates were what eight k , what i was assuming they were , professor c: yeah . phd e: um professor c: yeah , that makes sense , to check all that . phd e: yeah . so i was doing that first , before i did these other things , just to make sure there was n't something professor c: although really , uh uh , a couple three percent uh difference in word error rate uh { comment } could easily come from some difference in normalization , i would think . but phd e: yeah , and i think , hhh { comment } i 'm trying to remember but i think i recall that andreas was saying that he was gon na run sort of the reverse experiment . uh which is to try to emulate the normalization that we did but with the mel cepstral features . sort of , you know , back up from the system that he had . i thought he said he was gon na i have to look back through my my email from him . professor c: yeah , he 's probably off at at uh his meeting now , phd e: yeah , he 's gone now . professor c: yeah . phd e: um . professor c: yeah . but yeah phd e: but professor c: the i sh think they should be roughly equivalent , um i mean again the cambridge folk found the plp actually to be a little better . uh so it 's um phd e: right . professor c: i mean the other thing i wonder about was whether there was something just in the the bootstrapping of their system which was based on but maybe not , since they phd e: yeah see one thing that 's a little bit um i was looking i 've been studying and going through the logs for the system that um andreas created . and um his uh the way that the { comment } s r i system looks like it works is that it reads the wavefiles directly , uh and does all of the cepstral computation stuff on the fly . professor c: right . right . phd e: and , so there 's no place where these where the cepstral files are stored , anywhere that i can go look at and compare to the plp ones , so whereas with our features , he 's actually storing the cepstrum on disk , and he reads those in . professor c: right . phd e: but it looked like he had to give it uh even though the cepstrum is already computed , he has to give it uh a front - end parameter file . which talks about the kind of uh com computation that his mel cepstrum thing does , professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so i i i do n't know if that it probably does n't mess it up , it probably just ignores it if it determines that it 's already in the right format or something but the the the two processes that happen are a little different . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: so anyway , there 's stuff there to sort out . phd e: yeah . yeah . professor c: so , ok . let 's go back to what you thought i was asking you . phd e: yeah no and i did n't have a chance to do that . professor c: ha ! oh ! you had the sa same answer anyway . phd e: yeah . yeah . i 've been um , i 've been working with um jeremy on his project and then i 've been trying to track down this bug in uh the icsi front - end features . professor c: uh - huh . phd e: so one thing that i did notice , yesterday i was studying the um the uh rasta code professor c: uh - huh . phd e: and it looks like we do n't have any way to um control the frequency range that we use in our analysis . we basically it looks to me like we do the fft , um and then we just take all the bins and we use everything . we do n't have any set of parameters where we can say you know , `` only process from you know a hundred and ten hertz to thirty - seven - fifty `` . professor c: um phd e: at least i could n't see any kind of control for that . professor c: yeah , i do n't think it 's in there , i think it 's in the uh uh uh the filters . so , the f f t is on everything , but the filters um , for instance , ignore the the lowest bins and the highest bins . and what it does is it it copies phd e: the the filters ? which filters ? professor c: um the filter bank which is created by integrating over f f t bins . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um phd e: when you get the mel when you go to the mel scale . professor c: right . yeah , it 's bark scale , and it 's it it um it actually copies the uh um the second filters over to the first . so the first filters are always and you can s you can specify a different number of uh features different number of filters , i think , as i recall . so you can specify a different number of filters , and whatever um uh you specify , the last ones are gon na be ignored . so that that 's a way that you sort of change what the what the bandwidth is . y you ca n't do it without i think changing the number of filters , but phd e: i saw something about uh that looked like it was doing something like that , but i did n't quite understand it . so maybe professor c: yeah , so the idea is that the very lowest frequencies and and typically the veriest { comment } highest frequencies are kind of junk . phd e: uh - huh . professor c: and so um you just for continuity you just approximate them by by the second to highest and second to lowest . it 's just a simple thing we put in . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and and so if you h phd e: but so the but that 's a fixed uh thing ? professor c: yeah , { comment } i think that 's a fixed thing . phd e: there 's nothing that lets you professor c: but see see my point ? if you had if you had ten filters , then you would be throwing away a lot at the two ends . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and if you had if you had fifty filters , you 'd be throwing away hardly anything . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um , i do n't remember there being an independent way of saying `` we 're just gon na make them from here to here `` . phd e: use this analysis bandwidth or something . professor c: but i i i do n't know , it 's actually been awhile since i 've looked at it . phd e: yeah , i went through the feacalc code and then looked at you know just calling the rasta libs { comment } and thing like that . and i did n't i could n't see any wh place where that kind of thing was done . but um i did n't quite understand everything that i saw , professor c: yeah , see i do n't know feacalc at all . phd e: so mm - hmm . professor c: but it calls rasta with some options , and um phd e: right . professor c: but i i think in i do n't know . i guess for some particular database you might find that you could tune that and tweak that to get that a little better , but i think that in general it 's not that critical . i mean there 's phd e: yeah . professor c: you can you can throw away stuff below a hundred hertz or so and it 's just not going to affect phonetic classification at all . phd e: another thing i was thinking about was um is there a i was wondering if there 's maybe um certain settings of the parameters when you compute plp which would basically cause it to output mel cepstrum . so that , in effect , what i could do is use our code but produce mel cepstrum and compare that directly to professor c: well , it 's not precisely . yeah . i mean , phd e: hmm . professor c: um , um what you can do is um you can definitely change the the filter bank from being uh a uh trapezoidal integration to a a a triangular one , phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: which is what the typical mel mel cepstral uh filter bank does . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: and some people have claimed that they got some better performance doing that , so you certainly could do that easily . but the fundamental difference , i mean , there 's other small differences phd e: there 's a cubic root that happens , right ? professor c: yeah , but , you know , as opposed to the log in the other case . i mean the fundamental d d difference that we 've seen any kind of difference from before , which is actually an advantage for the p l p i uh , i think , is that the the smoothing at the end is auto - regressive instead of being cepstral uh , { comment } from cepstral truncation . so um it 's a little more noise robust . phd e: hmm . professor c: um , and that 's that 's why when people started getting databases that had a little more noise in it , like like uh um broadcast news and so on , that 's why c cambridge switched to plp i think . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: so um that 's a difference that i do n't think we put any way to get around , since it was an advantage . um uh phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: but we did eh we did hear this comment from people at some point , that um it uh they got some better results with the triangular filters rather than the trapezoidal . so that is an option in rasta . phd e: hmm . professor c: uh and you can certainly play with that . but i think you 're probably doing the right thing to look for bugs first . i do n't know . phd e: yeah just it just seems like this kind of behavior could be caused by you know s some of the training data being messed up . professor c: could be . phd e: you know , you 're sort of getting most of the way there , but there 's a so i started going through and looking one of the things that i did notice was that the um log likelihoods coming out of the log recognizer from the plp data were much lower , much smaller , than for the mel cepstral stuff , and that the average amount of pruning that was happening was therefore a little bit higher for the plp features . professor c: oh - huh ! phd e: so , since he used the same exact pruning thresholds for both , i was wondering if it could be that we 're getting more pruning . professor c: oh ! he he he used the identical pruning thresholds even though the s the range of p of the likeli phd e: yeah . professor c: oh well that 's that 's a pretty good { comment } point right there . phd e: right . right . professor c: yeah . phd e: yeah , professor c: i would think that you might wan na do something like uh you know , look at a few points to see where you are starting to get significant search errors . phd e: so that 's right . well , what i was gon na do is i was gon na take um a couple of the utterances that he had run through , then run them through again but modify the pruning threshold and see if it you know , affects the score . professor c: yeah . yeah . but i mean you could uh if if if that looks promising you could , you know , r uh run the overall test set with a with a few different uh pruning thresholds for both , phd e: so . mm - hmm . professor c: and presumably he 's running at some pruning threshold that 's that 's uh , you know gets very few search errors phd e: right . professor c: but is is relatively fast phd e: mm - hmm . right . i mean , yeah , generally in these things you you turn back pruning really far , professor c: and phd e: so i i did n't think it would be that big a deal because i was figuring well you have it turned back so far that you know it professor c: but you may be in the wrong range for the p l p features for some reason . phd e: yeah . yeah . yeah . and the uh the the run time of the recognizer on the plp features is longer which sort of implies that the networks are bushier , you know , there 's more things it 's considering which goes along with the fact that the matches are n't as good . so uh , you know , it could be that we 're just pruning too much . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . professor c: yeah , maybe just be different kind of distributions and and phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: yeah so that 's another possible thing . they they should really should n't phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: there 's no particular reason why they would be exactly behave exactly the same . phd e: mm - hmm . right . right . professor c: so . phd e: so . there 's lots of little differences . professor c: yeah . phd e: so . uh . professor c: yeah . phd e: trying to track it down . professor c: yeah . i guess this was a little bit off topic , i guess , because i was i was thinking in terms of th this as being a a a a core item that once we once we had it going we would use for a number of the front - end things also . phd e: yeah professor c: so . phd e: mm - hmm . professor c: um wan na grad b: that 's as far as my stuff goes , professor c: what 's what 's on grad b: yeah , well i tried this mean subtraction method . professor c: yeah . grad b: um . due to avendano , i 'm taking s um six seconds of speech , um i 'm using two second fft analysis frames , stepped by a half second so it 's a quarter length step and i i take that frame and four f the four i take sorry , i take the current frame and the four past frames and the four future frames and that adds up to six seconds of speech . and i calculate um the spectral mean , of the log magnitude spectrum over that n . i use that to normalize the s the current center frame by mean subtraction . and i then then i move to the next frame and i i do it again . well , actually i calculate all the means first and then i do the subtraction . and um the i tried that with hdk , the aurora setup of hdk training on clean ti - digits , and um it it helped um in a phony reverberation case um where i just used the simulated impulse response um the error rate went from something like eighty it was from something like eighteen percent to um four percent . and on meeting rec recorder far mike digits , mike on channel f , it went from um forty - one percent error to eight percent error . phd e: on on the real data , not with artificial reverb ? grad b: right . phd e: uh - huh . grad b: and that that was um trained on clean speech only , which i 'm guessing is the reason why the baseline was so bad . and professor c: that 's ac actually a little side point is i think that 's the first results that we have uh uh uh of any sort on the far field uh on on the far field data uh for recorded in in meetings . grad b: oh um actually um adam ran the sri recognizer . professor c: did he ? on the near field , on the ne grad b: on the far field also . he did one pzm channel and one pda channel . professor c: oh did he ? oh ! i did n't recall that . what kind of numbers was he getting with that ? grad b: i i 'm not sure , i think it was about five percent error for the pzm channel . professor c: five . grad b: f i think . yeah . professor c: so why were you getting forty - one here ? is this grad b: um . i i 'm g i 'm guessing it was the the training data . uh , clean ti - digits is , like , pretty pristine training data , and if they trained the sri system on this tv broadcast type stuff , i think it 's a much wider range of channels and it professor c: no , but wait a minute . i i i th i think he what am i saying here ? yeah , so that was the sri system . maybe you 're right . yeah . cuz it was getting like one percent so it 's still this kind of ratio . it was it was getting one percent or something on the near field . was n't it ? phd e: mm - hmm , or it wa a it was around one . professor c: yeah . yeah . i think it was getting around one percent for the near for the n for the close mike . phd e: yeah . grad b: huh ? ok . professor c: so it was like one to five so it 's still this kind of ratio . it 's just yeah , it 's a lot more training data . so so probably it should be something we should try then is to is to see if is at some point just to take i to transform the data and then and then uh use th use it for the sri system . grad b: b you me you mean um ta professor c: so you 're so you have a system which for one reason or another is relatively poor , grad b: yeah . professor c: and and uh you have something like forty - one percent error uh and then you transform it to eight by doing doing this this work . um . so here 's this other system , which is a lot better , but there 's still this kind of ratio . it 's something like five percent error with the the distant mike , and one percent with the close mike . grad b: ok . professor c: so the question is how close to that one can you get if you transform the data using that system . grad b: r right , so so i guess this sri system is trained on a lot of s broadcast news or switchboard data . is that right ? professor c: yeah . grad b: do you know which one it is ? phd e: it 's trained on a lot of different things . um . it 's trained on uh a lot of switchboard , call home , grad b: uh - huh . phd e: um a bunch of different sources , some digits , there 's some digits training in there . grad b: ok . grad a: hmm . grad b: o one thing i 'm wondering about is what this mean subtraction method um will do if it 's faced with additive noise . cuz i i it 's cuz i do n't know what log magnitude spectral subtraction is gon na do to additive noise . professor c: yeah , grad b: that 's that 's the professor c: well , it 's it 's not exactly the right thing grad b: uh - huh . professor c: but uh but you 've already seen that cuz there is added noise here . grad b: that 's that 's yeah , that 's true . that 's a good point . professor c: yeah . so um grad b: ok , so it 's then then it 's it 's it 's reasonable to expect it would be helpful if we used it with the sri system and professor c: yeah , i mean , as helpful i mean , so that 's the question . yeah , w we 're often asked this when we work with a system that that is n't is n't sort of industry industry standard great , grad b: uh - huh . professor c: uh and we see some reduction in error using some clever method , then , you know , will it work on a on a on a good system . so uh you know , this other one 's it was a pretty good system . i think , you know , one one percent word error rate on digits is uh digit strings is not uh you know stellar , but but given that this is real digits , as opposed to uh sort of laboratory grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: well . phd e: and it was n't trained on this task either . professor c: and it was n't trained on this task . actually one percent is sort of you know , sort of in a reasonable range . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: people would say `` yeah , i could i can imagine getting that `` . and uh so the the four or five percent or something is is is quite poor . grad b: mm - hmm . professor c: uh , you know , if you 're doing a uh a sixteen digit uh credit card number you 'll basically get it wrong almost all the time . grad b: hmm . professor c: so . so . uh , um a significant reduction in the error for that would be great . grad b: huh , ok . professor c: and and then , uh yeah . so . yeah . cool . grad b: sounds good . professor c: yeah . alright , um , i actually have to run . so i do n't think i can do the digits , but um , i guess i 'll leave my microphone on ? phd e: uh , yeah . professor c: yeah . thank you . phd e: yep . yeah . that 'll work . professor c: i can be out of here quickly . { comment } { comment } that 's i just have to run for another appointment . ok , i t yeah . i left it on . ok .

grad a explained that his vector contained binary values for whether a phonological feature exists or not . the goal was to come up with a mapping from a feature set to the existence of a particular phonological feature . he was not doing the mapping yet . the goal was simply detecting features at the time .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

the whole meeting was the final meeting of the project for discussion about the final design and project evaluation . firstly , though project manager came late , he efficiently started the prototype presentation , during which industrial designer and user interface presented the final design they worked out together . however , part of the features contained in their design , particularly too many buttons , were effectively rejected in the finance phase to reduce cost . then , marketing hosted the product evaluation and calculated a total score for their new remote control . after that , project manager guided the process evaluation and led the project to the closing phase .

summarize the group discussion about finance and budget control . </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

when the group found out that they came across a fairly tight budget , they cut the number of batteries from 2 to 1 and chose plastic as the cheapest case material supplement . but they still kept the advanced chip , lcd screen , and docking station , all of which they considered to be the strength of the product . after that , they touched on the button issue and realized that that was where the biggest cost driver hid . as a hurry solution , they quickly discarded the help and the mute button , replaced buttons for the program with a scroll-wheel , and removed a volume button and a channel button to reduce cost .

how did the group decide to reduce the cost of buttons ? </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

firstly , when the group realized that cost was chiefly incurred by excessive buttons , they quickly decided to discard the help and the mute button . but then they found out that the primary cost drivers were 10 buttons for program numbers . to get rid of them , project manager boldly proposed replacing them with a scroll-wheel , which was finally accepted despite disputes over its unfriendly nature for elderly users . also , the group agreed to remove a volume and a channel button by shifting the up-and-down function onto scroll-wheel and having radio buttons .

why was marketing discontent with all those changes made to buttons during the discussion about finance ? </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

first and foremost , marketing believed that the elder generation expected to have ten buttons for the number one to zero , rather than a scroll-wheel with radio buttons , which would inevitably harm the usability . in this case , a lot of marketing would be required to convince elderly users , who were unfamiliar with fancy stuff like scroll-wheel at all . additionally , he complained that the cost limit made it almost impossible to produce anything better than normal controls , and that he would not make those impelled changes if it was not for cost 's sake .

summarize the group discussion about project evaluation . </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

though project manager forgot to prepare evaluation criteria beforehand , marketing had analyzed project requirements and brought forward a systematic set of criteria , according to which product was graded by the whole group . then , under the guidance of project manager , the group evaluated the project process . eventually , the meeting stepped into the closing phase .

what specific criteria did marketing bring forward for product evaluation ? </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

on the basis of literature study and requirements analysis carried out by marketing , specific criteria were as follows : design innovation , learnability , functionality , utility , cost , target customer , recognizability , etc . after the group brought forward a score for each in sequence , the total score was calculated as 84 % , which was acknowledged as a nice score .

during process evaluation , why did not marketing agree that the meeting process was moving along the right phases ? </s> project manager: so hello . marketing: good afternoon . sorry i 'm a little late . project manager: no problem . marketing: got stuck in the traffic . project manager: okay . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: that 's possible on uh this time of day . starts at three o'clock . uh marketing: yeah . project manager: uh , let me see . our fourth and last meeting . there he is . yes . okay this our last meeting . in this meeting we will discuss our final design . and we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also the project . and then we 're going to close the project today as well . so after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: and this uh design , detailed design meeting uh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . um , in order to do that we have this agenda . we 'll have the prototype presentation first . then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . then we will look at the finance . uh we will have to see if everything we wan na do is also possible within our budget . because everything costs money , and the more functions you wan na have the more money it will cost . so we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half euro per remote . but we will see that later . then we will do the project uh evaluation , and the closing after that . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got forty minutes . so we will be finished at half past three . but first um we will do the this is prototype presentation . so , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward . industrial designer: okay . well this is what me and richard came up with . the default spot for the on-off button . the mute button just below that . then there 's the volume and channel selectors . simple plus-minus button . uh we thought of a help button . if you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the lcd screen . then there 's the zero to one to zero buttons . a button for teletext . a button for the subtitles . and the company logo . so it 's rather simple prototype . and uh we 'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it . project manager: okay . marketing: um , is this the moment where we ask or can ask questions about the functionality ? user interface: so yeah . yeah . industrial designer: sure uh just pop in at any time . marketing: um , when you 're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page . user interface: uh , that 's just uh the normal uh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh so um you put it uh you um came in uh page uh one hundred . now you can use the normal uh one to zero buttons . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and you but you can also uh use the um button th for uh changing the the channel . s so uh the shifting uh button . uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . so marketing: okay . okay . um yeah . project manager: okay . uh but um i thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uh simple . uh just a few buttons and large buttons . user interface: oh yeah ? project manager: but uh i think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . so i 'm wondering if we if we neely really need all of those buttons . user interface: industrial designer: i think if you look at most controls , they 've got more buttons than this . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and well the on-off button , it 's it 's a necessity . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you ca n't drop that one . the volume and channel buttons , you need you obviously need those those . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . so we could cancel that one . i think the help button really is necessary user interface: yeah yeah . industrial designer: because there 's no other way to know when someone wants to know what a button does . project manager: mm . user interface: uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh project manager: long time . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: if you put user interface: but m yeah . we disc discuss that already . but uh we think uh old people uh do n't know that uh option . so uh they just put in uh put press uh the button and uh project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: well , you ca n't leave out the number buttons i guess . project manager: yeah . user interface: and uh project manager: uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary . industrial designer: and user interface: oh . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so it 's rather basic already . marketing: yeah . think so . that 's what i pointed out earlier . if you just make a control for just the tv there 's just not much to gain here . project manager: yep . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so we had somebody about th interfa something about the design of the buttons there ? industrial designer: yeah , they 're project manager: just n normal plain buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah , industrial designer: it 's rather hard to draw on the white-board . user interface: it industrial designer: but they 're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the the triangle and stuff . project manager: yeah . 'kay . user interface: yeah yeah . just to recognise it , so uh industrial designer: just for recognition . user interface: uh yeah and now we do n't need uh leds or um y uh project manager: no . user interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also , project manager: no . user interface: but um uh because we use the little display we do n't uh have to use it . uh so project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: so and for the materials we 've just chosen for rubber buttons . with a a different colour than the case . user interface: nay . project manager: yep . industrial designer: so they jump out . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and uh that 's about it . project manager: that 's nice . then because we only have thirty minutes left , i will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it 's all possible what we wan na do . and i can tell you that we 're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half euros . marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: if we see i do n't know if i 've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . i counted two batteries . but maybe we can also use one . i do n't know if it 's possible . marketing: since it rechargeable . project manager: it 's rechargeable . that 's right . user interface: yeah we can u just uh project manager: okay . that 's two euros off . user interface: 'kay . project manager: we need the advanced chip . so there 's not much to uh to save there . industrial designer: yep . project manager: here we have the single curves . uh we can see that the difference between uncurved and the single curved is one euro . um , user interface: mm . project manager: i do n't know , but i think the single curved is good for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we have to keep that . industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: then we have the case material supplements . it 's plastic . it 's the cheapest one we need . so that 's uh not much to save either . but then the biggest costs are the buttons . so maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low . user interface: okay . project manager: because you have to we will have to get the twelve and a half euros at the end . um , user interface: yeah . project manager: so if we let 's fir first count the buttons we have now . user interface: uh sixteen , i believe so . project manager: because i sixteen . nah , that will be even more then . eighteen euros . so , user interface: uh seventeen . uh with the help button . project manager: seventeen . industrial designer: marketing: um project manager: okay , including the help ? industrial designer: yep . marketing: damn . project manager: yeah . uh seventeen . user interface: yeah . project manager: i think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh by pressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long . marketing: user interface: . industrial designer: yep . project manager: that saves us uh one euro already . 'cause then we have got fifteen i think ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: would n't project manager: fifteen buttons . marketing: yeah . no . that would n't be an option . project manager: and this is marketing: uh , d i assume you 'd count the volume and channel thingies for two buttons each , right ? project manager: no those are one , i think . user interface: yeah . where did uh marketing: well , think actually there 're two buttons , user interface: uh , it 's just one button . marketing: are n't they ? user interface: but , um yeah . there were uh two uh for one big button . but they are uh more expensive than the small ones . uh , yeah . so project manager: yeah but th it 's not stated in this files . user interface: it 's just a . project manager: so maybe we can we can even make one button with the volume and the channel in one , by pressing marketing: well i was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button . project manager: that 's possibility as well . marketing: that would cut the cost . project manager: so and it 's good for the design as well . so you can make uh let 's see . if you make this looks a bit like uh a cross . plus . min . user interface: but i do n't do n't know if if it 's cheaper . project manager: uh s yeah channel . user interface: so uh , project manager: yeah w user interface: we 've still got four buttons , but just um so project manager: yeah th i think they count uh the materials . user interface: you got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh on the um project manager: yeah on the chip there . yeah . user interface: yeah . on the chip you 've got still uh four uh four buttons . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: so project manager: but i think because we have the advanced chip marketing: yeah . project manager: we can just count this as one button . user interface: yeah , but marketing: but , i think this really is four buttons anyhow . project manager: but no but i think industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . maybe it is , but then it seems to me that it 's impossible to get the twelve and a half euros . also the l_c_ display , i think it 's , i think it 's too expensive for the display we use . marketing: yes . industrial designer: uh that 's that 's a big cost . project manager: i think they uh try t industrial designer: if we leave out the display we can also save money on the chip . project manager: that 's right , but what 's the big advantage of our remote then ? marketing: only the docking station , i guess . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: which is n't the the docking station is n't even in this c s schematic . project manager: no . industrial designer: so it 's not even taken into the price . project manager: that 's extra . that 's extra . that 's right . marketing: maybe we should to a different supplier . project manager: that 's an option . marketing: yeah . project manager: poland . something . polish supplier . do n't you think we can , if we can count this as v as one button , and integrate th uh these buttons in three , then we save a lot of money as well . industrial designer: we we could save money on it . but would it make the remote more usable for elderly people ? user interface: . marketing: yeah , that 's what i 'm wondering . industrial designer: my mother ca n't even send send an s_m_s_ message . project manager: yeah . that 's a point . industrial designer: so user interface: are we gon na buy a um a remote control uh when you can uh use it ? marketing: um user interface: so um yeah . we m uh we must um stay below the um below um twelve uh fifty or ca n't uh go um project manager: yep . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: well , since the market research indicated that older people spend their money easier , more easy , maybe it 's feasible to just put the price of the remote up a little . especially since we have those nice features . user interface: nay . project manager: yeah but uh we have to stick to the twelve and a half euros . we do n't have any more budget to develop it . user interface: is it impossible to industrial designer: the margin will get too small . yeah . project manager: yeah . so user interface: but it is possible to make one uh for uh twelve fifty . project manager: it is . if you leave out the l_c_ display . and if you use less buttons . say or you can take the single chip . user interface: i do n't think so . marketing: it would be a be a pretty rigid one . user interface: s yeah . marketing: user interface: but , you ca n't use uh industrial designer: ten . project manager: there it is . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: but then w good looking . user interface: uh , wi with n oh , with uh attractive uh o options . project manager: yeah . user interface: so uh , you can stay uh below uh twelve fifty . so project manager: i think it 's uh difficult as well , marketing: or b project manager: but marketing: basically becoming a choice between like either a good remote and a higher production cost , or just any other remote control . industrial designer: no remote . project manager: or we can leave out the ten buttons and take one scroll wheel for the programme numbers . then w user interface: scroll-wheel 's one . industrial designer: that 's project manager: because then we save ten buttons . user interface: no , it project manager: then we have five and one . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and see . if we have this one and we 've got the advanced w uh , we 're getting close . industrial designer: we 're getting closer . user interface: yeah . marketing: but how does scroll-wheel work here ? project manager: then you will or maybe you can um scroll . if you scroll you will see the numbers on the lcd display . until you 've got the right number , then you push it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: that would bring up the price of the scroll-wheel also . integrated scroll-wheel push-button . project manager: alright . it 's got ta scroll and push . user interface: mm . project manager: okay but then you you can push uh some other button as well . marketing: but yeah . industrial designer: you could just not scroll for a half a second . project manager: yeah . that 's right . so if you scroll to a number and then you wait a half second , then it g turns to that channel . industrial designer: so you wo n't need a button . marketing: i think that would be like the end of our usability . project manager: but it would definitely crop cost , a lot . user interface: d yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah , but project manager: and we need the battery . and the regular chip is not possible ? it has to be advanced ? industrial designer: if you want to use an lcd screen you you need an advanced chip , yes . project manager: it has to be advanced . yeah . okay . user interface: hmm . project manager: and we can save a euro by a flat design . that 's an option we can user interface: ja ja . industrial designer: yep . project manager: then we 're almost there . industrial designer: yeah if you v could just leave out one more button . project manager: yeah . so if we user interface: yeah , or we have to uh skip the subtitle uh button . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah but i think that 's that is a big advantage , user interface: so yeah project manager: if we 're user interface: yeah it 's a big advantage . project manager: but user interface: but um , it 's project manager: can we use ca n't we integrate the teletext and the subtitles in one button ? user interface: uh , yeah . industrial designer: i think so . yeah . project manager: if you push it three times ? marketing: well , think it 's pretty much the teletext subtitles are user interface: yeah . marketing: right now you just push the teletext button , go to page eight eight eight , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and teletext disappears . but the subtitles stay there . user interface: but if you push the teletext button twice industrial designer: what if you have to scroll to page eighty eight ? eight hundred eighty eight . marketing: i think that 's the case on most user interface: it 's uh one m uh one b uh , a few buttons . project manager: ah that 's not really that marketing: well , that could be just uh like the scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click , scroll to eight , click . industrial designer: yeah . okay . marketing: but then again that would be d j just pretty much not an option for older people , industrial designer: no . marketing: who do n't even know what a scroll-wheel is . user interface: yeah . project manager: no . marketing: holding a remote with which they expect to have like ten buttons for the numbers one to zero . industrial designer: marketing: with only five buttons on it . and a scroll-wheel . project manager: i think if you make a good advertisement uh on television and in the in the guide , you can explain to the people how to use the scroll wheel . if you just make it real simple . because it saves it saves a lot of money . and we can keep our lcd screen , which can provide extra information . how to use the scroll wheel . how to use the other bu buttons as subtitles . marketing: true . true . user interface: hmm . project manager: and it 's good for the innovative design as well . if you would erase these . mm eraser ? and we put uh looks a bit odd maybe . marketing: that 's a pretty big scroll wheel . project manager: that is something like that . marketing: project manager: then , yeah . we 've got the scroll-wheel . one , two , three , four , five buttons , if we erase this one . and these are two buttons then . industrial designer: we could make two buttons out of that . and just um if you press the volume button you can control the volume with the scroll-wheel . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so that would save two buttons . if you do the same for the channel . project manager: yeah . that 's really a good good idea , i think . and it will make the use of the scroll wheel uh more obvious indeed . industrial designer: more obvious . project manager: so we make one for the volume , one for the channel . plus scroll . that 's right . industrial designer: so if we project manager: so we 've got one , two , three . yeah , we can leave the teletext in if we want . that 's m that 's better . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . so marketing: so this is five buttons . industrial designer: if we leave out all those buttons , perhaps you can go with the flat flat case . and make it smaller overall . project manager: y yeah . industrial designer: so if you put the the volume and channel buttons on the same height as the on-off button , the screen right behi under that , than the scroll button project manager: mm yeah . uh yeah , and then you can industrial designer: you get a a much smaller remote . project manager: that 's right . user interface: uh yeah . industrial designer: and it sh project manager: so we can decrease this one to four buttons . industrial designer: yeah ? marketing: right now we have five . user interface: but uh , you can make a f quite a big uh remote remote control for uh just the same price as a small one . project manager: yeah . that 's no problem . user interface: just uh you only have to pay for the double curved or single curved . it uh it 's a bit uh project manager: yeah . yeah . it 's uh it 's more the moulds in which they are being made , i think . single curved is really easy to just fill in . marketing: mm . project manager: and cases come right out of the machine . user interface: . project manager: and single curved you have to have a different uh different machine , than a flat one . i think this is a really easy one . um , what does everybody think about a flat or a single curved design ? freek , what do you think ? marketing: well , i still think we should go for the single curve design . user interface: . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but then again , all these changes are not really okay with me . industrial designer: richard 's argument was very good . yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: but since we just have to . project manager: we have to cut costs . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . yeah i 'm ag marketing: i 'd rather just go to the board and get us to spend eighteen dollars a a remote . project manager: ask for more money . yeah . yeah . i am agreeing with the usability . yeah . marketing: or do some market research and see what the options are . project manager: yeah . but th um i think we can then keep the single curved one . just to express our lcd screen a bit more . industrial designer: yep . marketing: yeah . project manager: so people will use it more , and especially for the help functions , user interface: yeah . project manager: it will be good if we have scroll bar , scroll button . it will be necessary to have good help function , as well . so this is scroll . i think it was better to have this price list a bit earlier . before we went on to the to the whole design . marketing: yes . definitely . user interface: the th project manager: but i 'm glad we could make a bit . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's pretty different , if you saw the last one than this one . marketing: it 's pretty different . user interface: marketing: but this is not really like for the group we were making our remote . user interface: no . marketing: this will really require a lot of marketing to get this to sell . project manager: yeah . it will . yeah . user interface: but um marketing: 'cause if older people like familiar forms and familiar stuff . this is not familiar for them . project manager: no , but i think marketing: so we 're gon na have to do a lotta convincing them . project manager: i think the most user interface: but they know the scroll-buttons from uh old radios . uh they cal also uh buttons like that for uh changing uh channels . project manager: that 's right . marketing: yeah . project manager: we can let l user interface: so maybe it 's uh project manager: we can stick it out , a bit . like a old old buttons . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: maybe that 's recognisable for them as well . yeah . that 's a good one . user interface: yeah . project manager: so , i 'm afraid we have to move on . and it 's uh it 's b uh less frightening , i think . if they see this design they think oh , there are only five buttons , and uh but we will see . user interface: yeah . marketing: that 's true . might uh might be confusing too . project manager: yeah . that 's definitely right . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: they 'd be like , what ? only five buttons ? project manager: yeah . user interface: but very special , so uh project manager: i would buy it . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: yeah . but you 're not sixty . project manager: that 's right . i would buy it if i was six . no i do n't know . what it costs under twelve and a half euros ? no ? uh , yes they are . industrial designer: user interface: no . project manager: no . but we can go on with the project evaluation . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: let 's see . i can sit down i think . we still have fifteen minutes left , so we 're nice on schedule . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um , the project process . marketing: so um , i like set up all these criteria . and evaluation of the thingy . project manager: evaluation criteria . that 's right . that was the the point i forgot . i should industrial designer: project manager: there we are . evaluation criteria . user interface: marketing: thank you . project manager: go ahead . industrial designer: project manager: we 've got five minutes i think for those criteria . marketing: five more minutes ? project manager: no we 've got fifteen minutes but marketing: okay . project manager: uh yes . what ? marketing: 'kay so i did some literature study study , and analysis of the requirements we set up earlier . project manager: uh yeah . marketing: translated it into criteria , which would be these . um , is the remote fancy ? the shape , look and feel . innovative ? what new functions are there ? uh , easy to use ? uh , learnability is a very important factor here . uh , is it functional ? are there not too many functions uh among the functions ? and are the those functions that are there , are they useful ? and the cost . the target group . is the remote really for the group we 're making it for ? and recognability . if our company is if it is easily recognisable that our company made it ? and so we 're supposed to evaluate it right now . project manager: okay . marketing: let 's see . oh i have to say this was a little hard , because the minutes of our last meeting were not here . project manager: yeah , that 's because my pen failed to upload his data . user interface: mm . yeah ? marketing: okay . project manager: i tried to marketing: interesting . project manager: but it 's uh it 's giving errors by downloading the software . marketing: so user interface: mm . 'kay . marketing: is the design fancy , on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: i think it 's fancy . industrial designer: six . project manager: yeah . six . user interface: uh six . yeah . marketing: we all go for six ? good . um , is the design innovative ? project manager: very . user interface: mm . sh marketing: i think so , with our lcd screen , docking station , scroll-buttons . project manager: subtitles , buttons . yeah . seven . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: seven ? project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: so we 've got twenty cents for our docking station , huh ? industrial designer: user interface: marketing: should be do-able . project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: is the design easy to use ? user interface: mm . not really . project manager: that 's a bit dodgy . marketing: well would be for us . but user interface: for old people i i project manager: i would say four . four or five between . between four or five . user interface: w industrial designer: four or five . yes . user interface: yeah . four . marketing: i 'd go for four , too . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: is it functional ? industrial designer: marketing: is the design functional ? um , do we have all functions that we want to include ? project manager: yes . user interface: n yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i think we do . do we have too many functions ? project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: no . marketing: i do n't think so . it 's pretty slim . project manager: think it 's uh seven . marketing: seven . oh , and do we um take care of the biggest frustrations of the remote control ? like it getting lost and r_s_i_ influences ? user interface: mm m industrial designer: mm , we have n't thought of that one . project manager: it was . marketing: think we do . project manager: i had them worked out . mm . they are ugly , not very functional , and getting lost . user interface: yeah . marketing: are the production costs within the preset limits ? industrial designer: marketing: well they are now . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: does the design fit the group of focus ? user interface: mm , th yeah . industrial designer: i think that 's a three . marketing: yeah . project manager: no i think with our new radio button , i think it 's uh i think it 's better . marketing: i think it does n't . user interface: yeah . uh we have to test it s but marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: i still i think it 's too m too fancy . too too flashy . marketing: i think project manager: i think it marketing: i think a radio button is not exactly what older people expect to have a remote control . user interface: uh , yeah , true . project manager: yeah . i would give it a four . marketing: i 'm not sure . i think i 'd go for two . user interface: i go for three . so project manager: then we have to do the three . it 's the marketing: 'kay . is the company company recognisable ? project manager: yes it is . user interface: yeah yeah . marketing: well , we have the logo there . project manager: yeah . marketing: so project manager: and they wan na put fashion in their products . uh in the slogan of the company . and we have the removable front cases . so , i think it 's very recognisable . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: yep . marketing: so that will be this . i was also supposed to calculate the score , but thought we would have another private thingy after this . project manager: we 've got a calculate it . mm ? industrial designer: twendag sieven an twendag . marketing: is this like after this , are we done ? or project manager: n we 've gon na we 're going to evaluate it . marketing: we 're gon na go to our other room again . well , anyhow . these are seven factors times seven is forty something . two ? no . project manager: forty nine . marketing: nine ? uh , minus one . minus three , minus four . minus four . so that would be minus eight . forty one out of forty nine . project manager: forty one . that 's around eighty percent . marketing: okay . project manager: what is it ? marketing: guess i 'll just type that in on the bottom here . project manager: that 's eighty four percent . i think that 's a pretty nice score . user interface: hmm . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: hmm . 'kay . so that will be the evaluation . project manager: thank you . so , that brings us to the project evaluation . yep . thank you . marketing: project manager: project process . did we move through the right phases , you think ? along the process ? industrial designer: yes . user interface: yeah . but it marketing: think we should have a should have had the finance thingy a lot earlier . in the design phase . user interface: yeah . project manager: that 's right . so lack of information about prices . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . that 's true . marketing: yeah . definitely . project manager: okay . uh okay . satisfaction . was there room for creativity ? marketing: no . project manager: no ? user interface: marketing: not too much . no . project manager: it 's because of the finance sheet . yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , there w there was enough room , but the finance uh marketing: yeah , true . but project manager: the room was yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and i would 've liked to go for the younger users also . user interface: . marketing: and just to be able to access internet and get something of your own . user interface: mm . project manager: restrictions . internet access . 'kay . leadership . was it clear what everybody had to do uh according to their roles and functions ? yeah ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: yeah . project manager: teamwork ? did it work out ? working together ? also , you two of you with the uh last phase ? user interface: so industrial designer: yes , was okay . user interface: yeah . project manager: nice . industrial designer: the tasks are very structured , so you can just do step by step and it 's very easy . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: tasks . okay . were the means sufficient for the tasks uh we had to do ? or were they too much ? user interface: mm . industrial designer: well , the smart-board , the d d drawing is just a pain in the ass , but the digital the digital pen is very nice . user interface: marketing: project manager: smart-board . user interface: yeah . project manager: if it wants to download its uh data . user interface: but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yes . yeah . user interface: uh project manager: failed download . smart-board was irritating . so you rather wanted to have a flip-over ? or something else ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: a flip-over or a more precise uh digit user interface: a flipper 's uh easier , so yeah . project manager: faster as well , i think . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah . flip-over . user interface: but if you want to share uh of uh when you make um a picture like this uh on the presentation , it 's easier to uh share it with uh other people . uh so uh project manager: yeah . user interface: you can sh save it uh and uh put it on the internet , or uh uh in shared f uh folder or uh sh uh shared directory . marketing: yeah , user interface: so so marketing: i tried to open the file on my laptop , user interface: yeah ? no ? industrial designer: no . did n't work . marketing: but not possible . project manager: uh you need a smart board uh application i think . marketing: yeah . project manager: but i think you can user interface: t can uh can you export it uh like a yeah . project manager: yeah . should be possible . yeah you can export it as image . marketing: no . project manager: must yeah must be marketing: should 've done that then . project manager: so the sharing of the information was uh was okay ? user interface: . marketing: pen is here . project manager: uh , network . user interface: uh . industrial designer: yes . project manager: yeah , pen is here on the table . marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . so you can uh project manager: yeah . it 's possible . user interface: it 's possible . marketing: mm . yeah . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . project manager: that 's nice . have we found new ideas for having this kind of meetings ? or user interface: um , yeah maybe um uh when we n uh just uh give the numbers of of uh uh uh o one of uh out of s uh sev project manager: yeah . user interface: um it 's uh easier to uh to do the th things that are like that on a computer . uh , so uh just l uh like uh at u university uh project manager: yeah . so yeah . so everybody puts his own score . user interface: so marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then it mediates the score , user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: and you can get one user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's better . so that 's uh how do we call ? evaluation criteria . okay . mm , any more ideas ? or questions about the project ? or about the product ? user interface: mm . project manager: because i think then that we get to our last sheet . are the costs within the budget ? user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: project manager: yeah . marketing: they are . industrial designer: considering we are not going to make a docking station . project manager: do we docking station . that 's a good point . user interface: . project manager: but maybe because of the docking station the price of the remote can also be a little bit higher ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh and i think you can compensate that as well . industrial designer: perhaps . user interface: mm . project manager: so i think that should n't be the biggest problem , because it 's very cheap to make as well . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: do we think we gon na get the twelve and a half million ? user interface: yeah . project manager: or what was it ? marketing: fifty grand . project manager: fifteen fifteen million . i think we will . if we gon na export this product . it 's innovative . marketing: yeah . project manager: especially in america . people are pretty decadent . sometimes . user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , still i think i mean if we 're n gon na make a scroll-button anyway it 'd be more for the younger people than for the older people . project manager: you can do more . yeah . user interface: ah . marketing: so maybe we should just re-focus . project manager: just put it on the market for everybody . you can you can change markets where by changing the front covers . user interface: ah . marketing: or specifically for younger people . project manager: that 's one thing you can change it with . user interface: ah . marketing: that 's true . project manager: so you can also try to uh reach the younger people by uh putting fancy covers on on the market . just as a test . see how it works . that 's i think a good advantage . marketing: yeah , i think then it would be way more uh popular with younger people than it is , than would be with older people . even if it were their covers . project manager: yeah . uh , uh then i think we can have our little celebration , right now . user interface: hmm . marketing: but user interface: project manager: that 's it . marketing: party party . project manager: yeah . i think we still have to fit in one more questionnaire . i think . user interface: where 's the champagne ? marketing: 'kay . project manager: i do n't know . i did n't get a message from the from ending of the user interface: uh , i believe y uh project manager: oh i think i have one now . marketing: oh you did . project manager: five more minutes ? oh that 's nice . user interface: okay . project manager: then we still have some questions . if somebody has some questions they can ask them now . or we can put these in the project folder as well . maybe that 's marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: marketing: project manager: export as picture , i think . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: hmm . this is another network , i guess . does somebody see the project folder ? marketing: user interface: project manager: i do n't . hmm . my documents . user interface: uh maybe uh they will save it . so uh project manager: yeah , i 'll just put it in my documents marketing: yeah , it probably will . project manager: and uh that 's okay . okay . i think i 'm going to make our final presentation now . marketing: oh yeah , you 're supposed to make a final project manager: and then i will be back in about ten minutes to show you the final presentation . summary of the project . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . marketing: are we supposed to go into our own rooms again ? user interface: uh maybe we have to fill uh another questionnaire . project manager: yeah . questionnaire . i think you all get a questionnaire in in your room . user interface: so uh marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: and then i 'll meet you in i think about ten minutes , or something . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: hopefully my pen will download its software . oh . or data . marketing: yeah . that 'd be nice .

when it came to processing evaluation , though industrial designer appeared to think highly of project manager 's arrangements , marketing clearly voiced his dissent . as he explained , it is obvious that financial issues were touched on too late , making it imperative to further adjust to the final design during budget control . project manager himself admitted that there existed a lack of information about prices , which in fact led to a number of unrealistic dialogues about costly functions like recognition .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> marketing: did you get my email with the slides ? ah . tricky . industrial designer: i guess i have to change the pen otherwise . will be completely different . marketing: dunno . maybe they 're supposed the pen 's supposed to go over the seats . might be seat floor rather than person . yeah , put it back . industrial designer: yeah . and do you think it 's . marketing: yep . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: jo 's making faces at me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . matthew is uh late again . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: probably an important man . um . so well it is important for him to be here uh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: he he he industrial designer: so what can you ? project manager: you did work together did n't you ? industrial designer: yeah we will yeah , so i will be able to to summarize uh our meeting , project manager: yes . industrial designer: but still i think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . i think we can put on the here . project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items . project manager: mm . um yes industrial designer: um , can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: yes , maybe we should phone him . um well um , industrial designer: it 's really w well designed . marketing: mm . mm , object tracking . project manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . um so just for record i i will take uh notes again . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: and um well first thing uh i was uh uh i got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: when you stay in it 's good , when you do n't stay in you have to redesign . there is no uh no negotiation uh possible in this matter . so we have to consider that . good . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um so maybe anna , you can have your presentation . marketing: well we ca n't no we ca n't do evaluation 'til we have a design . project manager: okay matthew . nice uh you are here . industrial designer: great . project manager: great . great . oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs . industrial designer: yep . so i will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight euros actually , right , seven eight euros , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it 's like a surf board . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf tv , maybe the web , and uh it 's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . marketing: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: or browse . industrial designer: and also it 's not too far from um a mobile . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so people are used to that kind of shape , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . do n't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we do n't take user interface: now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah . so here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eye . user interface: i yeah . industrial designer: yeah l_a_ l_a_ l_e_d_ , user interface: l_e_d_ . industrial designer: the on-off button , in red . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: here would be the volume . on the on the left , marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay , so user interface: mm-hmm , hmm . project manager: yes . industrial designer: easy to turn on t and off . and um so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on uh matthew . user interface: also so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can go up and down the channels , marketing: yeah . user interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back . industrial designer: how can you change from v_c_r_ to uh tv , by the way ? user interface: oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the tv one . industrial designer: okay yeah . yeah yeah . project manager: ah , okay . user interface: no no just sorry , this is a standard tv one , we are not talking about that . so and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . and the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay so project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's it 's t a very basic remote then , it 's only user interface: it 's a very basic minimal thing marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that 's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight euros . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: seven , eight , ei eight euros . project manager: exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so this one model marketing: can i see ? user interface: and uh yeah . sure . marketing: thanks . okay i like the volume control , that 's good . industrial designer: user interface: th this is a magic one but i know we do n't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it 's like uh it 's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . project manager: marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: so it does n't actually have buttons . user interface: so that uh then what we look t marketing: did you wan na see ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah no you can carry on , user interface: this is a model , project manager: i just look how it feels all . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yep . project manager: just i 'm industrial designer: yeah actually , yeah . project manager: i really want to talk to it . marketing: it wo n't talk back . project manager: but . industrial designer: project manager: so but but continue with your uh user interface: uh so well project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then the this is the a more a little uh smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but do n't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . marketing: right . project manager: mm . user interface: and so they have more space actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh it 's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a lcd display , here project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it 's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: from d_v_d_ player to television or something . industrial designer: exactly yeah . to audio and to video on demand . user interface: yeah . i really can change it , project manager: yes . user interface: so project manager: mm . user interface: instead of having many switches , y marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes and and and then you get feedback via the lcd yeah . user interface: the lcd can display what is that on that , industrial designer: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: this is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: or in the button th here , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display . industrial designer: an yeah . user interface: and here is a small l_e_d_ which is like blinking one , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as i was talking earlier project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . and uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you do n't need much of the time this , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: mm . yeah industrial designer: crazy dis designer , user interface: you know . industrial designer: okay . user interface: design enter . project manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . it 's basically to do that . project manager: but but the lcd screen i mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: which should n't be should n't be user interface: actually when you are watching the tv , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: oh actually well . project manager: that th that 's true . user interface: you know , uh you want to uh and this gives a protection to the lcd actually , giving a cover to that actually . gives a protection project manager: mm . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yes . yes , more robust . user interface: it 's more robust that way . uh yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes okay . user interface: and you have very good chances industrial designer: it 's low weight . you have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so the the cost is actually a bit more , it 's uh it 's it 's sixteen francs . user interface: it sixteen euros . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sixteen euros sorry . marketing: so it 's well outside the budget then . user interface: industrial designer: then it 's out of budget . project manager: but w industrial designer: but the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . and they say basically that the s_r_ system would be uh something like three francs per item user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: three euros . industrial designer: three euros sorry . and um marketing: that 's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: no no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: part of that . marketing: so that takes it down to thirteen euros without the speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm 'kay . hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: well uh if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i think th th yeah we should stick with uh a number of keys marketing: mm . industrial designer: because if we add too much then user interface: yeah project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: what 's this one on the side ? user interface: ah that 's for the it 's kind of a l_e_d_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: locati . location . marketing: ah okay . user interface: and as well as it 's like a blinking one marketing: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . user interface: you know industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you can keep it aside . marketing: i like the shape of them , i do like the the size and the the shape . project manager: well well mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: be before ta talking about the money and what 's possible and what is not possible , maybe anna you can uh give our uh give us your um marketing: mm-hmm . okay . and maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two . project manager: yes . evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at . marketing: okay . basically this is what we 've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we just wan na make sure that we 've taken into account project manager: well marketing: yep . project manager: just do it quickly if if we al already . marketing: so it 's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we 've identified as being important to selling the product . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we 'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so these are the things we identified as being important . um the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . and then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . so well do you wan na go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wan na discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , marketing: okay . so f just go through onto the whiteboard i guess . not sure how this is gon na come out . so the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'cause if we 're only going to make it for eight euros then we have a project manager: mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight euros we must think how can we improve it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half euro marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five euros industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five euro . industrial designer: functionality . marketing: okay so look and feel , innovation user interface: and now it easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: easy to use . project manager: mm . industrial designer: target . marketing: mm-hmm . and trends . oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? is that part of both of them or ? project manager: um well w w we can still discuss that . marketing: okay . project manager: so um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 've received uh a framework which we can do this . i mean did you have this this excel sheet ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: no . project manager: no okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve euro uh fifty cents uh . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: so maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . marketing: okay . yep . so it 's the pink . project manager: th th this is the first design . marketing: and the other one 's green . okay , so project manager: yes . marketing: look and feel ? where um one is i 've broken the pen again . s project manager: uh there is another pen . marketing: yeah . get that one . um w one 's bad and seven 's the best . sorry , one 's true and seven 's false . one 's the best . project manager: okay . marketing: so on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: 'kay . okay . so . look and feel . well you already feel that uh pretty much i think . user interface: project manager: in i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: so i i i would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but that 's just half , we should also consider look , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i it looks quite conventional . marketing: mm . project manager: do n't you agree ? user interface: mm yeah . marketing: on the scale u it 's between functional and fancy basically we 're looking at , project manager: so maybe two . hmm . hmm . ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: i it 's my opinion , but i do n't know what what user interface: well i will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it 's like the surf as you say marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you know . it though the look is fine but uh still i will give four in that case industrial designer: yeah . four maybe . user interface: you know . marketing: four ? okay . project manager: four , four . user interface: four yeah project manager: now we th th user interface: that marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: then we settle on four . user interface: yeah . i will gi yeah . marketing: project manager: 'kay . can you maybe fix the other industrial designer: uh . yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if you press like this not like this then you marketing: no that 's the industrial designer: user interface: no . marketing: ink 's dried . user interface: c can you get the batteries ? no no the battery has fallen down , marketing: battery 's low , is n't it the ink ? user interface: that 's i marketing: the b that 's the that that one ? user interface: yeah . marketing: battery there . industrial designer: but user interface: no no it 's not that , it 's how to close a battery . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay ? now it should be . marketing: mm . no i think it 's lost a battery . project manager: mm , try it , just try it . marketing: no it 's it would still write project manager: oh it will not marketing: but it would n't pick it up with the sensors . project manager: ri mm , mm . user interface: is there another battery there ? oh yeah . marketing: you got a second ? industrial designer: try a marketing: well we wo n't be able to tell . project manager: yes , it it has a mm . user interface: industrial designer: perfect . marketing: is that working ? industrial designer: marketing: did it come out ? good . okay . project manager: good . good . marketing: because we 'll be able to see it still even if it was n't working , it 's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: but it would n't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so then then marketing: and the other one ? industrial designer: wow . marketing: user interface: marketing: i think it 's slightly better , um , project manager: ah . mm . marketing: it 's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: i i i marketing: but project manager: when we want to include i i i 'm doubting about this this component . marketing: mm . project manager: it it it it breaks in your industrial designer: 'kay marketing: mm . industrial designer: maybe user interface: no actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: okay . user interface: it it 's n i it is jus industrial designer: it 's not a button it 's a led , it 's a user interface: it 's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: ac actually yeah it should be embedded . project manager: mm , yes i see , mm okay . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . user interface: it 's will be embedded there industrial designer: yeah . oh user interface: so it wo n't be really you know protruding or something . industrial designer: you can push push it again , you can push it . marketing: yeah . the other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: maybe it wo n't work so well . user interface: no you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: okay . project manager: well r r marketing: i 'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: mm . marketing: probably more towards three than two . project manager: i think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . so so i would also say this is four . marketing: okay . project manager: but w w do you what do you think ? user interface: uh it 's fine i think . my just that um the feel is that um you right now you you do n't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it 's embedded one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . mm . yes . user interface: this is how embedded one will project manager: yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: yeah . it 's a bas basically the same thing actually . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: you will be except that in this c industrial designer: and the lcd makes it better . yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: and you might have a slight thing for to forward and marketing: mm , okay . yeah industrial designer: so i will say two . marketing: it 's d it 's definitely more fancier than that one . project manager: yes , okay . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: i would say two , three . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: so , consensus ? two or three ? project manager: two ? marketing: two ? project manager: mm . two 's good industrial designer: yep . project manager: yes . user interface: looking like marketing: um , 'kay . innovation . the first one , not really muc industrial designer: basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: right ? marketing: do we user interface: no but except for the design of the surf . industrial designer: yeah . the surf uh design . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: what what features are we actually including ? user interface: you should be rea marketing: are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: uh no marketing: there 's nothing like that ? user interface: i think it 's more of the feel . marketing: but th is there any there 's no actual innovation in that at all , it 's just a straight-out remote control . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: the only innova innovation is the shape . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: say about that . marketing: okay . project manager: s so that marketing: so there 's no this uh look and feel thing , though that 's not a technological innovation . industrial designer: yeah . you 're right . user interface: yeah . marketing: so i 'd be up for seven for innovation . industrial designer: yeah . and the and the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation . user interface: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part . user interface: yeah , it gives it project manager: yes . a and the lcd screen is industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's that 's well it 's quite innovative . industrial designer: and all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh could put it at one or two i would say . personally . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . mm . mm . mm . mm . user interface: yep . marketing: so what is it , what are the innovations with this ? got the lcd screen . industrial designer: uh yeah automatic speech recognition . marketing: is that in this one though ? is this 'cause this is the th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: no , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . project manager: we just diske discuss it as you designed it marketing: okay . project manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the cost for these were industrial designer: so marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? eight euros ? project manager: eight . industrial designer: eight . well actually we have yeah to check again yeah . user interface: yeah , eight euros yeah . marketing: and this one was sixteen euros . project manager: yes . industrial designer: sixteen . user interface: sixteen euros . marketing: okay . so . innovation for this one is two ? one ? user interface: it 's a two , i would say two . marketing: two ? project manager: two . industrial designer: w w un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , i do n't see project manager: why it is one . industrial designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , . project manager: user interface: project manager: a man w w marketing: mm . well user interface: yeah . marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation i believe it , project manager: yes . industrial designer: bu marketing: so industrial designer: yeah . so maybe we can put one . project manager: this this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: it 's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: well . user interface: okay yeah . project manager: gi given that that it works , marketing: give it a one ? industrial designer: yeah , one , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: then it 's i think one . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: ease of use ? user interface: uh industrial designer: so the first one is really standard , marketing: mm . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: he is used to it act marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: they are used to it actually . marketing: yep . so that 's maybe a a two for ease of use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: here there may industrial designer: um , the other one is quite easy , tho though . user interface: uh , though it has more functionality i think it should n't be for the user to learn it actually . it should n't be diffi marketing: okay . so maybe a three or a four . project manager: hmm . user interface: uh yeah , actually in fact i think it will be industrial designer: one me um we hope user interface: yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah but y industrial designer: and there is a like i would say three . or maybe four . marketing: okay . consensus ? three or four ? user interface: well we have reduced the keys actually you see . project manager: three , i would . three . marketing: three ? okay . industrial designer: yeah , yeah user interface: three is fine with me . industrial designer: because it 's n uh it 's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , user interface: yeah it 's a project manager: no . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not so easy , like this one the normal . project manager: yeah . yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy . user interface: is quite easy yeah . project manager: so so i think th three is good . yeah . user interface: initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: good . marketing: so three 's project manager: what 's the next ? marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . so we 're d we 're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: so user interface: mm . project manager: twe twenty to forty , yes that 's marketing: that 's industrial designer: this one would be uh for grandmothers . marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: oh no , this would i industrial designer: no . user interface: i would i would give this model to the old people actually . industrial designer: yeah , grandmothers , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so sh completely changed our demographic there , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and marketing: it 's not part of the the funky young thing . project manager: well exce except for the surfing shape . i mean that 's that 's something which which has an appeal on this group i think , industrial designer: yeah that 's true . yeah . marketing: yeah . if it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then i can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's it 's still ye project manager: mm w w w we after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: mm . 'cause we have got room , we 've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: but as it is now , i w would say mm , six , something . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: oh yeah , . marketing: and project manager: do you agree ? user interface: i industrial designer: yeah because it 's so important it 's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: well i think marketing: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: yeah . uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it 's going to be cheap , actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but it 's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: but w user interface: so marketing: it was set with i we 've got a set price . user interface: and people can still decide to use the cheaper one industrial designer: yeah . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: but for us it 's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five euros . project manager: mm , yeah , indeed . marketing: yeah . there 's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few euros on that one rather than another one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: ju just think , twenty five euros , i mean it 's not going to be cheaper . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . so in that case well it 's fine then . marketing: okay . um project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: we can yeah . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: and the demographics of marketing: it 's got the got the the toys in it , it 's got the lcd screen project manager: yeah tha tha tha tha tha that 's marketing: and project manager: i think it 's better , marketing: mm . project manager: because of the lcd screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: yeah . project manager: on the and on the industrial designer: yeah . and if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , i think for this audience we need absolutely the lcd screen . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . so , the lcd screen uh attracts , marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i think especially if we 're gon na n have an lcd screen on a low range product then that 's good . project manager: because it mm , ma maybe that 's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . okay . project manager: so . wh what what marketing: i 'd probably go with three again for that one . user interface: yeah i think it 's uh it has more market actually . industrial designer: or even even one and two . or two . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: no s say t two . user interface: y yeah , you know marketing: okay . so , two , yeah ? user interface: two . project manager: two ? industrial designer: yeah . two yeah . user interface: yeah two yeah . because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: yeah . yep . and especially i guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it 's more of a a new fun toy . user interface: we have to practically test it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the field test will tell you how good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , the final point , trends . marketing: and following the trends . user interface: the trends . marketing: so the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: so as it is , not really doing either of them . project manager: i think industrial designer: spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: i know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but i 'm thinking one of the nokias that 's got like you ca it has n't got individual buttons industrial designer: uh okay . marketing: it 's got just a one bit on it project manager: mm . user interface: yeah i know . marketing: and so you can that feels kinda spongy . industrial designer: but this one includes this feature , right ? spongy buttons . marketing: so it 's sort of , yeah . user interface: yeah . we we we we we yeah , it 's the way they are going to be , actually . marketing: mm . okay . industrial designer: so uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie . marketing: but that 's if you 're using the covers . project manager: and the then we can al marketing: or is it just one industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . we can we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? i mean marketing: well they make it for mobiles , it ca n't be that much more complicated . user interface: but why do you want to cover that actually ? in that uh w in the mod project manager: well just with the with the flexible plastic uh marketing: so you got the option of having different colours or different textures . industrial designer: yeah . this is possible . project manager: i th i th i think user interface: uh uh y are you sure ? yeah i think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: o o or just two things which can be put on each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah exactly like nokia phones . marketing: mm . project manager: yes , exactly like it . user interface: yep . project manager: uh , so maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features . marketing: i think the if we do the cover that 's really going with the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: mm . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you 'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it 'll still be in fashion . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . 'cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it 's all black , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and uh it 's quite conventional , and sometimes people do n't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . marketing: mm . mm . industrial designer: so maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things . marketing: mm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: yep . mm . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: and then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers . project manager: yes . so so so that that would make the trends equal , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so we we we really have do n't have , marketing: mm . there 's n yeah . 'cause that 's the that 's the feature that could be included in either of them . project manager: i mean marketing: although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one . project manager: yes , indeed . industrial designer: yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two . marketing: okay . so . two and three , or one and two ? project manager: yes . marketing: user interface: yeah , it 's one . project manager: say , say one and two . one and two . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so le le let 's see . so d marketing: okay . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: yeah , the blue one uh spongy . user interface: yeah , it says a project manager: mm , i see , yes okay . good . marketing: okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five mm nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: just add it . industrial designer: nine . project manager: you know . three , six , seven . user interface: one point six , one point industrial designer: user interface: one point eight yeah . marketing: this one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: four point uh four point two . marketing: yep . industrial designer: very good . marketing: okay . but we still got a very different price for those two so they 're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: mm-hmm . we we must try to get them closer . industrial designer: yeah , it 's right , yeah that 's right . marketing: yep . project manager: both in i i user interface: wow . project manager: or we just have to choose . and adapt . marketing: yep . project manager: because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and w when we to d for this one we have to make it more cheap . marketing: well it 's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: yes , well marketing: that 'll basically take us down to the budget . project manager: but i 'm now did y did you work with the same prices that i have here ? industrial designer: so i i give yeah i just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh i explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen fr euros . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh unfortunately we did n't see this chip , uh matthew , user interface: yeah . yep . project manager: mm , tha industrial designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one . user interface: maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah . project manager: well yes , well uh re reconsider it . so let 's let 's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh what kind of energy source uh i i we did n't speak about that . it 's a it 's a normal battery , or user interface: yeah , it migh it it 'll need uh more than a conventional one , it wo n't be uh just maybe you might use a a_a_ battery actually . what do you say , mael ? industrial designer: for this one it 's a normal battery . project manager: yes . just so one battery . 'kay . electronics . given speech recognition i think w you should go for the less fancy chip . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh sample speaker , yeah . project manager: yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes . industrial designer: sample , yeah , this one . project manager: yes , this one . okay . case ? um , industrial designer: so user interface: curved . double curved yeah right . project manager: i see i user interface: it 's uh marketing: mm . project manager: double curve . marketing: yeah , it 's gon na be more than just the biggest case , definitely . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so which one are we talking to ? user interface: are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: well marketing: either of them . project manager: oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . they 're both going to be not basic cases . project manager: but , actually bu industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so th th this would be double curves ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . uh , plastic would be the material . marketing: yeah . the basic one , yep . industrial designer: is it zero franc ? user interface: a special colour ? project manager: uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: uh marketing: so now we 're either going button or lcds , lcd display . project manager: push . mm , yes , but industrial designer: lcd is . it 's okay . just say lcd . marketing: is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: ah good . marketing: so it would need twelve buttons . user interface: yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: no but for this one it 's twelve euro . user interface: no , for that one also . industrial designer: there are twelve ? project manager: so , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: yeah that 's a scroll . project manager: t yes . twelve i believe . so this comes to eighteen . marketing: mm . and that 's without any special button supplements . user interface: yeah , one scroll wheel you might need . project manager: so marketing: so we 'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . they 're not just standard buttons . user interface: uh project manager: so i think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: wait a minute , it 's not it 's not double curved , it 's single curved , right ? because it 's there is no like . marketing: but i thought it would be curved on two project manager: yes i marketing: it 's like it 's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that 's what i thought . project manager: yes i 'm i 'm no i 'm no i 'm not sh sure . industrial designer: well project manager: yes i kno undes i understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it 's you know this curve like this so , it 's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: you talking about concave curves ? project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah concave . project manager: both . industrial designer: so i think we can put um marketing: you think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . that makes uh seventeen . and what are just the bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes . uh marketing: we have more , we 've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: so marketing: and yeah industrial designer: i had a bad uh bad estimation . user interface: bad estimate , marketing: the sc project manager: w d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we have n't talk about a , but that 's no a is very exp inexpensive i believe marketing: mm . project manager: but it is not in the list . marketing: we 've got a scroll wheel for the volume do n't we , or is it some other thing that 's not on there . project manager: w ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: no no no . marketing: 'kay we 've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: yes , a kind of scroll wheel . marketing: so this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen euros . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: that is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: so um industrial designer: but still , yeah it user interface: we just need that actually . we need one . project manager: we 're we we could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we ca n't have the the speech recognition , yes ? yes ? industrial designer: no we can not , yeah . project manager: so so w when we w a industrial designer: so user interface: s project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: but the um yeah but if you have the near the lcd you can um choose select between um you know like uni universal between audio , tv and v_c_r_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: transti industrial designer: right , matthew ? user interface: oh i i it industrial designer: or regular chip ? user interface: i think it 's going to be y y industrial designer: i think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . user interface: yeah it 's th with the regular chip , yeah . project manager: say say it 's regular , regular chip , industrial designer: yeah . okay . okay . project manager: and we still on fifteen , user interface: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so . and what about the number of buttons buttons uh my matthew ? project manager: yes but that maybe well we can just say user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: one . industrial designer: when you look at this w , this u uh item , user interface: yeah . project manager: ca l we are just when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: but project manager: so is it possible ? marketing: but that 's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 'll be then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: you can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: no no , marketing: well project manager: he he he i i industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: so the lcd display is is three francs , sorry three euros , by itself . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we do n't want to to change that right ? we we really want a lcd user interface: uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market . project manager: otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this . industrial designer: it 's evident . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so twelve euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: and i dunno marketing: we ca n't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an lcd dispra display , that 's seven fifty um , so we 've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . and the chip . project manager: mm . marketing: sorry the chip 's up there already . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: so we 're gon na have to scale this down to get within budget , there 's no doubt about that . project manager: a industrial designer: so wha what what each of us think about the because it 's measure point the lcd , um do you think it 's important ? user interface: or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: because sometimes whe when you watch the tv in fact , you have a big display and maybe you do n't need one more in your hands ? i dunno , i 'm just asking . marketing: mm . project manager: mm user interface: a actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you 'll have lcd display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two euros at least . marketing: mm . yeah . i think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the lcd display . user interface: okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: yeah , it 's true yeah . user interface: and then add a couple of buttons . industrial designer: but uh , do we want that ? on the market point of view , yeah . what do you think uh , lcd is a major feature , or ? project manager: mm . i marketing: for the price , it 's gon na be what we can afford , and it 's looking like we ca n't afford the lcd display , there 's no way we can get it in there . mm . project manager: i think we have to come to a decision now , just i i think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the lcd uh display marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so industrial designer: you assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: yes . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: yes . yes . one man one vote . industrial designer: okay . project manager: s so who thinks the the lcd disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: i th i 'd like t it to be in but i ca n't see it happening . i ca n't see it fitting in . project manager: mm . mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: i think but industrial designer: we need to be . marketing: bu y you 're a power voter uh veto anyway as project manager . project manager: mm-hmm , i know , but industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . marketing: well we have to make a decision now , that 's it . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: so uh uh having an lcd s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . is that acceptable ? ca can i have can the functions be implement in an industrial designer: yes . project manager: you 've you you agree . user interface: w i i i just project manager: so hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons . industrial designer: because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . here one , at the middle , and at the bottom . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . i think then we we 're really losing ease of use . industrial designer: okay , . user interface: that will create another problem . for the people to use it . it 's not going to be easy . doing that . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . so um industrial designer: okay . project manager: i i think we should we should cut the lcd screen . that that 's that 's my opinion . user interface: no , it 's okay , you uh cut the lcd screen project manager: just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . marketing: okay . so lcd 's out , is speech rec out now ? we 've industrial designer: the speech recognition is out . because of the budget , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: uh where , l_c_ marketing: yep . project manager: okay w we now we can just uh marketing: so are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . with these new costings . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: so just look at forget that one and look at that one now . project manager: yes . yes . i th i th i think w we just go for this one industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: and that that now twelve euros is the is is the price , marketing: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . well that 's that 's project manager: my m my supervisor will be glad that it 's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: yep . industrial designer: actually yeah , marketing: so . industrial designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . so w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe project manager: okay . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that 's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment . project manager: okay , good . then we the same . thank you . user interface: okay . project manager: that was it . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: that 's it . cool . marketing: okay .

firstly , industrial designer introduced both the cheap one and the other , the expensive prototype of remote control based on the previous discussion of its function . both the devices had the special shape , like the surf-board . the first prototype was a pretty simple design with lcd display and a conventional layout of buttons . the second prototype was advanced in its speech recognition function and looked like a fashion mobile phone . secondly , marketing designed an evaluation test , focusing on its look and feel , innovation and ease of use and the team were asked to give one to seven points to each feature of the product to compare the two prototypes . thirdly , the team calculated the cost of both the prototypes and found that the second one had exceeded the budget to a great extent . as a result they discussed and voted a lot to discard the advanced functions and eliminate the number of the push buttons , which made the budget under control .

how did industrial designer introduce the two prototypes of the remote control ? </s> marketing: did you get my email with the slides ? ah . tricky . industrial designer: i guess i have to change the pen otherwise . will be completely different . marketing: dunno . maybe they 're supposed the pen 's supposed to go over the seats . might be seat floor rather than person . yeah , put it back . industrial designer: yeah . and do you think it 's . marketing: yep . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: jo 's making faces at me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . matthew is uh late again . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: probably an important man . um . so well it is important for him to be here uh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: he he he industrial designer: so what can you ? project manager: you did work together did n't you ? industrial designer: yeah we will yeah , so i will be able to to summarize uh our meeting , project manager: yes . industrial designer: but still i think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . i think we can put on the here . project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items . project manager: mm . um yes industrial designer: um , can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: yes , maybe we should phone him . um well um , industrial designer: it 's really w well designed . marketing: mm . mm , object tracking . project manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . um so just for record i i will take uh notes again . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: and um well first thing uh i was uh uh i got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: when you stay in it 's good , when you do n't stay in you have to redesign . there is no uh no negotiation uh possible in this matter . so we have to consider that . good . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um so maybe anna , you can have your presentation . marketing: well we ca n't no we ca n't do evaluation 'til we have a design . project manager: okay matthew . nice uh you are here . industrial designer: great . project manager: great . great . oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs . industrial designer: yep . so i will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight euros actually , right , seven eight euros , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it 's like a surf board . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf tv , maybe the web , and uh it 's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . marketing: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: or browse . industrial designer: and also it 's not too far from um a mobile . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so people are used to that kind of shape , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . do n't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we do n't take user interface: now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah . so here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eye . user interface: i yeah . industrial designer: yeah l_a_ l_a_ l_e_d_ , user interface: l_e_d_ . industrial designer: the on-off button , in red . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: here would be the volume . on the on the left , marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay , so user interface: mm-hmm , hmm . project manager: yes . industrial designer: easy to turn on t and off . and um so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on uh matthew . user interface: also so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can go up and down the channels , marketing: yeah . user interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back . industrial designer: how can you change from v_c_r_ to uh tv , by the way ? user interface: oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the tv one . industrial designer: okay yeah . yeah yeah . project manager: ah , okay . user interface: no no just sorry , this is a standard tv one , we are not talking about that . so and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . and the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay so project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's it 's t a very basic remote then , it 's only user interface: it 's a very basic minimal thing marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that 's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight euros . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: seven , eight , ei eight euros . project manager: exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so this one model marketing: can i see ? user interface: and uh yeah . sure . marketing: thanks . okay i like the volume control , that 's good . industrial designer: user interface: th this is a magic one but i know we do n't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it 's like uh it 's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . project manager: marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: so it does n't actually have buttons . user interface: so that uh then what we look t marketing: did you wan na see ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah no you can carry on , user interface: this is a model , project manager: i just look how it feels all . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yep . project manager: just i 'm industrial designer: yeah actually , yeah . project manager: i really want to talk to it . marketing: it wo n't talk back . project manager: but . industrial designer: project manager: so but but continue with your uh user interface: uh so well project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then the this is the a more a little uh smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but do n't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . marketing: right . project manager: mm . user interface: and so they have more space actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh it 's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a lcd display , here project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it 's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: from d_v_d_ player to television or something . industrial designer: exactly yeah . to audio and to video on demand . user interface: yeah . i really can change it , project manager: yes . user interface: so project manager: mm . user interface: instead of having many switches , y marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes and and and then you get feedback via the lcd yeah . user interface: the lcd can display what is that on that , industrial designer: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: this is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: or in the button th here , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display . industrial designer: an yeah . user interface: and here is a small l_e_d_ which is like blinking one , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as i was talking earlier project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . and uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you do n't need much of the time this , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: mm . yeah industrial designer: crazy dis designer , user interface: you know . industrial designer: okay . user interface: design enter . project manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . it 's basically to do that . project manager: but but the lcd screen i mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: which should n't be should n't be user interface: actually when you are watching the tv , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: oh actually well . project manager: that th that 's true . user interface: you know , uh you want to uh and this gives a protection to the lcd actually , giving a cover to that actually . gives a protection project manager: mm . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yes . yes , more robust . user interface: it 's more robust that way . uh yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes okay . user interface: and you have very good chances industrial designer: it 's low weight . you have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so the the cost is actually a bit more , it 's uh it 's it 's sixteen francs . user interface: it sixteen euros . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sixteen euros sorry . marketing: so it 's well outside the budget then . user interface: industrial designer: then it 's out of budget . project manager: but w industrial designer: but the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . and they say basically that the s_r_ system would be uh something like three francs per item user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: three euros . industrial designer: three euros sorry . and um marketing: that 's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: no no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: part of that . marketing: so that takes it down to thirteen euros without the speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm 'kay . hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: well uh if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i think th th yeah we should stick with uh a number of keys marketing: mm . industrial designer: because if we add too much then user interface: yeah project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: what 's this one on the side ? user interface: ah that 's for the it 's kind of a l_e_d_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: locati . location . marketing: ah okay . user interface: and as well as it 's like a blinking one marketing: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . user interface: you know industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you can keep it aside . marketing: i like the shape of them , i do like the the size and the the shape . project manager: well well mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: be before ta talking about the money and what 's possible and what is not possible , maybe anna you can uh give our uh give us your um marketing: mm-hmm . okay . and maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two . project manager: yes . evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at . marketing: okay . basically this is what we 've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we just wan na make sure that we 've taken into account project manager: well marketing: yep . project manager: just do it quickly if if we al already . marketing: so it 's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we 've identified as being important to selling the product . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we 'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so these are the things we identified as being important . um the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . and then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . so well do you wan na go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wan na discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , marketing: okay . so f just go through onto the whiteboard i guess . not sure how this is gon na come out . so the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'cause if we 're only going to make it for eight euros then we have a project manager: mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight euros we must think how can we improve it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half euro marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five euros industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five euro . industrial designer: functionality . marketing: okay so look and feel , innovation user interface: and now it easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: easy to use . project manager: mm . industrial designer: target . marketing: mm-hmm . and trends . oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? is that part of both of them or ? project manager: um well w w we can still discuss that . marketing: okay . project manager: so um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 've received uh a framework which we can do this . i mean did you have this this excel sheet ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: no . project manager: no okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve euro uh fifty cents uh . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: so maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . marketing: okay . yep . so it 's the pink . project manager: th th this is the first design . marketing: and the other one 's green . okay , so project manager: yes . marketing: look and feel ? where um one is i 've broken the pen again . s project manager: uh there is another pen . marketing: yeah . get that one . um w one 's bad and seven 's the best . sorry , one 's true and seven 's false . one 's the best . project manager: okay . marketing: so on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: 'kay . okay . so . look and feel . well you already feel that uh pretty much i think . user interface: project manager: in i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: so i i i would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but that 's just half , we should also consider look , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i it looks quite conventional . marketing: mm . project manager: do n't you agree ? user interface: mm yeah . marketing: on the scale u it 's between functional and fancy basically we 're looking at , project manager: so maybe two . hmm . hmm . ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: i it 's my opinion , but i do n't know what what user interface: well i will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it 's like the surf as you say marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you know . it though the look is fine but uh still i will give four in that case industrial designer: yeah . four maybe . user interface: you know . marketing: four ? okay . project manager: four , four . user interface: four yeah project manager: now we th th user interface: that marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: then we settle on four . user interface: yeah . i will gi yeah . marketing: project manager: 'kay . can you maybe fix the other industrial designer: uh . yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if you press like this not like this then you marketing: no that 's the industrial designer: user interface: no . marketing: ink 's dried . user interface: c can you get the batteries ? no no the battery has fallen down , marketing: battery 's low , is n't it the ink ? user interface: that 's i marketing: the b that 's the that that one ? user interface: yeah . marketing: battery there . industrial designer: but user interface: no no it 's not that , it 's how to close a battery . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay ? now it should be . marketing: mm . no i think it 's lost a battery . project manager: mm , try it , just try it . marketing: no it 's it would still write project manager: oh it will not marketing: but it would n't pick it up with the sensors . project manager: ri mm , mm . user interface: is there another battery there ? oh yeah . marketing: you got a second ? industrial designer: try a marketing: well we wo n't be able to tell . project manager: yes , it it has a mm . user interface: industrial designer: perfect . marketing: is that working ? industrial designer: marketing: did it come out ? good . okay . project manager: good . good . marketing: because we 'll be able to see it still even if it was n't working , it 's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: but it would n't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so then then marketing: and the other one ? industrial designer: wow . marketing: user interface: marketing: i think it 's slightly better , um , project manager: ah . mm . marketing: it 's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: i i i marketing: but project manager: when we want to include i i i 'm doubting about this this component . marketing: mm . project manager: it it it it breaks in your industrial designer: 'kay marketing: mm . industrial designer: maybe user interface: no actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: okay . user interface: it it 's n i it is jus industrial designer: it 's not a button it 's a led , it 's a user interface: it 's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: ac actually yeah it should be embedded . project manager: mm , yes i see , mm okay . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . user interface: it 's will be embedded there industrial designer: yeah . oh user interface: so it wo n't be really you know protruding or something . industrial designer: you can push push it again , you can push it . marketing: yeah . the other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: maybe it wo n't work so well . user interface: no you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: okay . project manager: well r r marketing: i 'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: mm . marketing: probably more towards three than two . project manager: i think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . so so i would also say this is four . marketing: okay . project manager: but w w do you what do you think ? user interface: uh it 's fine i think . my just that um the feel is that um you right now you you do n't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it 's embedded one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . mm . yes . user interface: this is how embedded one will project manager: yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: yeah . it 's a bas basically the same thing actually . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: you will be except that in this c industrial designer: and the lcd makes it better . yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: and you might have a slight thing for to forward and marketing: mm , okay . yeah industrial designer: so i will say two . marketing: it 's d it 's definitely more fancier than that one . project manager: yes , okay . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: i would say two , three . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: so , consensus ? two or three ? project manager: two ? marketing: two ? project manager: mm . two 's good industrial designer: yep . project manager: yes . user interface: looking like marketing: um , 'kay . innovation . the first one , not really muc industrial designer: basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: right ? marketing: do we user interface: no but except for the design of the surf . industrial designer: yeah . the surf uh design . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: what what features are we actually including ? user interface: you should be rea marketing: are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: uh no marketing: there 's nothing like that ? user interface: i think it 's more of the feel . marketing: but th is there any there 's no actual innovation in that at all , it 's just a straight-out remote control . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: the only innova innovation is the shape . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: say about that . marketing: okay . project manager: s so that marketing: so there 's no this uh look and feel thing , though that 's not a technological innovation . industrial designer: yeah . you 're right . user interface: yeah . marketing: so i 'd be up for seven for innovation . industrial designer: yeah . and the and the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation . user interface: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part . user interface: yeah , it gives it project manager: yes . a and the lcd screen is industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's that 's well it 's quite innovative . industrial designer: and all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh could put it at one or two i would say . personally . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . mm . mm . mm . mm . user interface: yep . marketing: so what is it , what are the innovations with this ? got the lcd screen . industrial designer: uh yeah automatic speech recognition . marketing: is that in this one though ? is this 'cause this is the th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: no , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . project manager: we just diske discuss it as you designed it marketing: okay . project manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the cost for these were industrial designer: so marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? eight euros ? project manager: eight . industrial designer: eight . well actually we have yeah to check again yeah . user interface: yeah , eight euros yeah . marketing: and this one was sixteen euros . project manager: yes . industrial designer: sixteen . user interface: sixteen euros . marketing: okay . so . innovation for this one is two ? one ? user interface: it 's a two , i would say two . marketing: two ? project manager: two . industrial designer: w w un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , i do n't see project manager: why it is one . industrial designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , . project manager: user interface: project manager: a man w w marketing: mm . well user interface: yeah . marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation i believe it , project manager: yes . industrial designer: bu marketing: so industrial designer: yeah . so maybe we can put one . project manager: this this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: it 's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: well . user interface: okay yeah . project manager: gi given that that it works , marketing: give it a one ? industrial designer: yeah , one , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: then it 's i think one . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: ease of use ? user interface: uh industrial designer: so the first one is really standard , marketing: mm . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: he is used to it act marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: they are used to it actually . marketing: yep . so that 's maybe a a two for ease of use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: here there may industrial designer: um , the other one is quite easy , tho though . user interface: uh , though it has more functionality i think it should n't be for the user to learn it actually . it should n't be diffi marketing: okay . so maybe a three or a four . project manager: hmm . user interface: uh yeah , actually in fact i think it will be industrial designer: one me um we hope user interface: yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah but y industrial designer: and there is a like i would say three . or maybe four . marketing: okay . consensus ? three or four ? user interface: well we have reduced the keys actually you see . project manager: three , i would . three . marketing: three ? okay . industrial designer: yeah , yeah user interface: three is fine with me . industrial designer: because it 's n uh it 's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , user interface: yeah it 's a project manager: no . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not so easy , like this one the normal . project manager: yeah . yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy . user interface: is quite easy yeah . project manager: so so i think th three is good . yeah . user interface: initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: good . marketing: so three 's project manager: what 's the next ? marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . so we 're d we 're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: so user interface: mm . project manager: twe twenty to forty , yes that 's marketing: that 's industrial designer: this one would be uh for grandmothers . marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: oh no , this would i industrial designer: no . user interface: i would i would give this model to the old people actually . industrial designer: yeah , grandmothers , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so sh completely changed our demographic there , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and marketing: it 's not part of the the funky young thing . project manager: well exce except for the surfing shape . i mean that 's that 's something which which has an appeal on this group i think , industrial designer: yeah that 's true . yeah . marketing: yeah . if it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then i can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's it 's still ye project manager: mm w w w we after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: mm . 'cause we have got room , we 've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: but as it is now , i w would say mm , six , something . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: oh yeah , . marketing: and project manager: do you agree ? user interface: i industrial designer: yeah because it 's so important it 's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: well i think marketing: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: yeah . uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it 's going to be cheap , actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but it 's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: but w user interface: so marketing: it was set with i we 've got a set price . user interface: and people can still decide to use the cheaper one industrial designer: yeah . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: but for us it 's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five euros . project manager: mm , yeah , indeed . marketing: yeah . there 's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few euros on that one rather than another one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: ju just think , twenty five euros , i mean it 's not going to be cheaper . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . so in that case well it 's fine then . marketing: okay . um project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: we can yeah . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: and the demographics of marketing: it 's got the got the the toys in it , it 's got the lcd screen project manager: yeah tha tha tha tha tha that 's marketing: and project manager: i think it 's better , marketing: mm . project manager: because of the lcd screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: yeah . project manager: on the and on the industrial designer: yeah . and if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , i think for this audience we need absolutely the lcd screen . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . so , the lcd screen uh attracts , marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i think especially if we 're gon na n have an lcd screen on a low range product then that 's good . project manager: because it mm , ma maybe that 's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . okay . project manager: so . wh what what marketing: i 'd probably go with three again for that one . user interface: yeah i think it 's uh it has more market actually . industrial designer: or even even one and two . or two . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: no s say t two . user interface: y yeah , you know marketing: okay . so , two , yeah ? user interface: two . project manager: two ? industrial designer: yeah . two yeah . user interface: yeah two yeah . because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: yeah . yep . and especially i guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it 's more of a a new fun toy . user interface: we have to practically test it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the field test will tell you how good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , the final point , trends . marketing: and following the trends . user interface: the trends . marketing: so the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: so as it is , not really doing either of them . project manager: i think industrial designer: spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: i know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but i 'm thinking one of the nokias that 's got like you ca it has n't got individual buttons industrial designer: uh okay . marketing: it 's got just a one bit on it project manager: mm . user interface: yeah i know . marketing: and so you can that feels kinda spongy . industrial designer: but this one includes this feature , right ? spongy buttons . marketing: so it 's sort of , yeah . user interface: yeah . we we we we we yeah , it 's the way they are going to be , actually . marketing: mm . okay . industrial designer: so uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie . marketing: but that 's if you 're using the covers . project manager: and the then we can al marketing: or is it just one industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . we can we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? i mean marketing: well they make it for mobiles , it ca n't be that much more complicated . user interface: but why do you want to cover that actually ? in that uh w in the mod project manager: well just with the with the flexible plastic uh marketing: so you got the option of having different colours or different textures . industrial designer: yeah . this is possible . project manager: i th i th i think user interface: uh uh y are you sure ? yeah i think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: o o or just two things which can be put on each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah exactly like nokia phones . marketing: mm . project manager: yes , exactly like it . user interface: yep . project manager: uh , so maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features . marketing: i think the if we do the cover that 's really going with the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: mm . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you 'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it 'll still be in fashion . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . 'cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it 's all black , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and uh it 's quite conventional , and sometimes people do n't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . marketing: mm . mm . industrial designer: so maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things . marketing: mm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: yep . mm . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: and then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers . project manager: yes . so so so that that would make the trends equal , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so we we we really have do n't have , marketing: mm . there 's n yeah . 'cause that 's the that 's the feature that could be included in either of them . project manager: i mean marketing: although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one . project manager: yes , indeed . industrial designer: yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two . marketing: okay . so . two and three , or one and two ? project manager: yes . marketing: user interface: yeah , it 's one . project manager: say , say one and two . one and two . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so le le let 's see . so d marketing: okay . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: yeah , the blue one uh spongy . user interface: yeah , it says a project manager: mm , i see , yes okay . good . marketing: okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five mm nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: just add it . industrial designer: nine . project manager: you know . three , six , seven . user interface: one point six , one point industrial designer: user interface: one point eight yeah . marketing: this one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: four point uh four point two . marketing: yep . industrial designer: very good . marketing: okay . but we still got a very different price for those two so they 're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: mm-hmm . we we must try to get them closer . industrial designer: yeah , it 's right , yeah that 's right . marketing: yep . project manager: both in i i user interface: wow . project manager: or we just have to choose . and adapt . marketing: yep . project manager: because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and w when we to d for this one we have to make it more cheap . marketing: well it 's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: yes , well marketing: that 'll basically take us down to the budget . project manager: but i 'm now did y did you work with the same prices that i have here ? industrial designer: so i i give yeah i just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh i explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen fr euros . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh unfortunately we did n't see this chip , uh matthew , user interface: yeah . yep . project manager: mm , tha industrial designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one . user interface: maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah . project manager: well yes , well uh re reconsider it . so let 's let 's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh what kind of energy source uh i i we did n't speak about that . it 's a it 's a normal battery , or user interface: yeah , it migh it it 'll need uh more than a conventional one , it wo n't be uh just maybe you might use a a_a_ battery actually . what do you say , mael ? industrial designer: for this one it 's a normal battery . project manager: yes . just so one battery . 'kay . electronics . given speech recognition i think w you should go for the less fancy chip . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh sample speaker , yeah . project manager: yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes . industrial designer: sample , yeah , this one . project manager: yes , this one . okay . case ? um , industrial designer: so user interface: curved . double curved yeah right . project manager: i see i user interface: it 's uh marketing: mm . project manager: double curve . marketing: yeah , it 's gon na be more than just the biggest case , definitely . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so which one are we talking to ? user interface: are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: well marketing: either of them . project manager: oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . they 're both going to be not basic cases . project manager: but , actually bu industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so th th this would be double curves ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . uh , plastic would be the material . marketing: yeah . the basic one , yep . industrial designer: is it zero franc ? user interface: a special colour ? project manager: uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: uh marketing: so now we 're either going button or lcds , lcd display . project manager: push . mm , yes , but industrial designer: lcd is . it 's okay . just say lcd . marketing: is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: ah good . marketing: so it would need twelve buttons . user interface: yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: no but for this one it 's twelve euro . user interface: no , for that one also . industrial designer: there are twelve ? project manager: so , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: yeah that 's a scroll . project manager: t yes . twelve i believe . so this comes to eighteen . marketing: mm . and that 's without any special button supplements . user interface: yeah , one scroll wheel you might need . project manager: so marketing: so we 'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . they 're not just standard buttons . user interface: uh project manager: so i think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: wait a minute , it 's not it 's not double curved , it 's single curved , right ? because it 's there is no like . marketing: but i thought it would be curved on two project manager: yes i marketing: it 's like it 's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that 's what i thought . project manager: yes i 'm i 'm no i 'm no i 'm not sh sure . industrial designer: well project manager: yes i kno undes i understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it 's you know this curve like this so , it 's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: you talking about concave curves ? project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah concave . project manager: both . industrial designer: so i think we can put um marketing: you think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . that makes uh seventeen . and what are just the bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes . uh marketing: we have more , we 've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: so marketing: and yeah industrial designer: i had a bad uh bad estimation . user interface: bad estimate , marketing: the sc project manager: w d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we have n't talk about a , but that 's no a is very exp inexpensive i believe marketing: mm . project manager: but it is not in the list . marketing: we 've got a scroll wheel for the volume do n't we , or is it some other thing that 's not on there . project manager: w ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: no no no . marketing: 'kay we 've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: yes , a kind of scroll wheel . marketing: so this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen euros . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: that is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: so um industrial designer: but still , yeah it user interface: we just need that actually . we need one . project manager: we 're we we could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we ca n't have the the speech recognition , yes ? yes ? industrial designer: no we can not , yeah . project manager: so so w when we w a industrial designer: so user interface: s project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: but the um yeah but if you have the near the lcd you can um choose select between um you know like uni universal between audio , tv and v_c_r_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: transti industrial designer: right , matthew ? user interface: oh i i it industrial designer: or regular chip ? user interface: i think it 's going to be y y industrial designer: i think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . user interface: yeah it 's th with the regular chip , yeah . project manager: say say it 's regular , regular chip , industrial designer: yeah . okay . okay . project manager: and we still on fifteen , user interface: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so . and what about the number of buttons buttons uh my matthew ? project manager: yes but that maybe well we can just say user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: one . industrial designer: when you look at this w , this u uh item , user interface: yeah . project manager: ca l we are just when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: but project manager: so is it possible ? marketing: but that 's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 'll be then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: you can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: no no , marketing: well project manager: he he he i i industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: so the lcd display is is three francs , sorry three euros , by itself . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we do n't want to to change that right ? we we really want a lcd user interface: uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market . project manager: otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this . industrial designer: it 's evident . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so twelve euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: and i dunno marketing: we ca n't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an lcd dispra display , that 's seven fifty um , so we 've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . and the chip . project manager: mm . marketing: sorry the chip 's up there already . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: so we 're gon na have to scale this down to get within budget , there 's no doubt about that . project manager: a industrial designer: so wha what what each of us think about the because it 's measure point the lcd , um do you think it 's important ? user interface: or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: because sometimes whe when you watch the tv in fact , you have a big display and maybe you do n't need one more in your hands ? i dunno , i 'm just asking . marketing: mm . project manager: mm user interface: a actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you 'll have lcd display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two euros at least . marketing: mm . yeah . i think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the lcd display . user interface: okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: yeah , it 's true yeah . user interface: and then add a couple of buttons . industrial designer: but uh , do we want that ? on the market point of view , yeah . what do you think uh , lcd is a major feature , or ? project manager: mm . i marketing: for the price , it 's gon na be what we can afford , and it 's looking like we ca n't afford the lcd display , there 's no way we can get it in there . mm . project manager: i think we have to come to a decision now , just i i think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the lcd uh display marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so industrial designer: you assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: yes . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: yes . yes . one man one vote . industrial designer: okay . project manager: s so who thinks the the lcd disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: i th i 'd like t it to be in but i ca n't see it happening . i ca n't see it fitting in . project manager: mm . mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: i think but industrial designer: we need to be . marketing: bu y you 're a power voter uh veto anyway as project manager . project manager: mm-hmm , i know , but industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . marketing: well we have to make a decision now , that 's it . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: so uh uh having an lcd s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . is that acceptable ? ca can i have can the functions be implement in an industrial designer: yes . project manager: you 've you you agree . user interface: w i i i just project manager: so hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons . industrial designer: because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . here one , at the middle , and at the bottom . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . i think then we we 're really losing ease of use . industrial designer: okay , . user interface: that will create another problem . for the people to use it . it 's not going to be easy . doing that . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . so um industrial designer: okay . project manager: i i think we should we should cut the lcd screen . that that 's that 's my opinion . user interface: no , it 's okay , you uh cut the lcd screen project manager: just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . marketing: okay . so lcd 's out , is speech rec out now ? we 've industrial designer: the speech recognition is out . because of the budget , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: uh where , l_c_ marketing: yep . project manager: okay w we now we can just uh marketing: so are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . with these new costings . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: so just look at forget that one and look at that one now . project manager: yes . yes . i th i th i think w we just go for this one industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: and that that now twelve euros is the is is the price , marketing: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . well that 's that 's project manager: my m my supervisor will be glad that it 's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: yep . industrial designer: actually yeah , marketing: so . industrial designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . so w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe project manager: okay . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that 's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment . project manager: okay , good . then we the same . thank you . user interface: okay . project manager: that was it . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: that 's it . cool . marketing: okay .

both the devices had the special shape , like the surf-board . the first prototype was a pretty simple design with lcd display and an on-off button in red . it was easy to use and could only be used for the tv mode . after all , the team concluded that it was a standard design except for its special shape that made it look adorable . on the contrary , the second prototype was advanced in its speech recognition function and looked like a fashion mobile phone . it came with six key buttons and one orange one for the microphone . if the user would like a speech recognition and a lot of information on the channel could be displayed directly on lcd display . also , the components for the two designs were low in weight and there was led to indicate the battery usage , making it convenient to use . to conclude , marketing fancied the second one 's size and shape .

how did marketing design the product evaluation ? </s> marketing: did you get my email with the slides ? ah . tricky . industrial designer: i guess i have to change the pen otherwise . will be completely different . marketing: dunno . maybe they 're supposed the pen 's supposed to go over the seats . might be seat floor rather than person . yeah , put it back . industrial designer: yeah . and do you think it 's . marketing: yep . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: jo 's making faces at me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . matthew is uh late again . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: probably an important man . um . so well it is important for him to be here uh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: he he he industrial designer: so what can you ? project manager: you did work together did n't you ? industrial designer: yeah we will yeah , so i will be able to to summarize uh our meeting , project manager: yes . industrial designer: but still i think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . i think we can put on the here . project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items . project manager: mm . um yes industrial designer: um , can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: yes , maybe we should phone him . um well um , industrial designer: it 's really w well designed . marketing: mm . mm , object tracking . project manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . um so just for record i i will take uh notes again . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: and um well first thing uh i was uh uh i got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: when you stay in it 's good , when you do n't stay in you have to redesign . there is no uh no negotiation uh possible in this matter . so we have to consider that . good . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um so maybe anna , you can have your presentation . marketing: well we ca n't no we ca n't do evaluation 'til we have a design . project manager: okay matthew . nice uh you are here . industrial designer: great . project manager: great . great . oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs . industrial designer: yep . so i will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight euros actually , right , seven eight euros , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it 's like a surf board . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf tv , maybe the web , and uh it 's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . marketing: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: or browse . industrial designer: and also it 's not too far from um a mobile . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so people are used to that kind of shape , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . do n't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we do n't take user interface: now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah . so here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eye . user interface: i yeah . industrial designer: yeah l_a_ l_a_ l_e_d_ , user interface: l_e_d_ . industrial designer: the on-off button , in red . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: here would be the volume . on the on the left , marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay , so user interface: mm-hmm , hmm . project manager: yes . industrial designer: easy to turn on t and off . and um so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on uh matthew . user interface: also so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can go up and down the channels , marketing: yeah . user interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back . industrial designer: how can you change from v_c_r_ to uh tv , by the way ? user interface: oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the tv one . industrial designer: okay yeah . yeah yeah . project manager: ah , okay . user interface: no no just sorry , this is a standard tv one , we are not talking about that . so and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . and the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay so project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's it 's t a very basic remote then , it 's only user interface: it 's a very basic minimal thing marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that 's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight euros . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: seven , eight , ei eight euros . project manager: exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so this one model marketing: can i see ? user interface: and uh yeah . sure . marketing: thanks . okay i like the volume control , that 's good . industrial designer: user interface: th this is a magic one but i know we do n't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it 's like uh it 's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . project manager: marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: so it does n't actually have buttons . user interface: so that uh then what we look t marketing: did you wan na see ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah no you can carry on , user interface: this is a model , project manager: i just look how it feels all . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yep . project manager: just i 'm industrial designer: yeah actually , yeah . project manager: i really want to talk to it . marketing: it wo n't talk back . project manager: but . industrial designer: project manager: so but but continue with your uh user interface: uh so well project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then the this is the a more a little uh smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but do n't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . marketing: right . project manager: mm . user interface: and so they have more space actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh it 's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a lcd display , here project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it 's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: from d_v_d_ player to television or something . industrial designer: exactly yeah . to audio and to video on demand . user interface: yeah . i really can change it , project manager: yes . user interface: so project manager: mm . user interface: instead of having many switches , y marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes and and and then you get feedback via the lcd yeah . user interface: the lcd can display what is that on that , industrial designer: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: this is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: or in the button th here , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display . industrial designer: an yeah . user interface: and here is a small l_e_d_ which is like blinking one , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as i was talking earlier project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . and uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you do n't need much of the time this , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: mm . yeah industrial designer: crazy dis designer , user interface: you know . industrial designer: okay . user interface: design enter . project manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . it 's basically to do that . project manager: but but the lcd screen i mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: which should n't be should n't be user interface: actually when you are watching the tv , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: oh actually well . project manager: that th that 's true . user interface: you know , uh you want to uh and this gives a protection to the lcd actually , giving a cover to that actually . gives a protection project manager: mm . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yes . yes , more robust . user interface: it 's more robust that way . uh yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes okay . user interface: and you have very good chances industrial designer: it 's low weight . you have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so the the cost is actually a bit more , it 's uh it 's it 's sixteen francs . user interface: it sixteen euros . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sixteen euros sorry . marketing: so it 's well outside the budget then . user interface: industrial designer: then it 's out of budget . project manager: but w industrial designer: but the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . and they say basically that the s_r_ system would be uh something like three francs per item user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: three euros . industrial designer: three euros sorry . and um marketing: that 's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: no no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: part of that . marketing: so that takes it down to thirteen euros without the speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm 'kay . hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: well uh if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i think th th yeah we should stick with uh a number of keys marketing: mm . industrial designer: because if we add too much then user interface: yeah project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: what 's this one on the side ? user interface: ah that 's for the it 's kind of a l_e_d_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: locati . location . marketing: ah okay . user interface: and as well as it 's like a blinking one marketing: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . user interface: you know industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you can keep it aside . marketing: i like the shape of them , i do like the the size and the the shape . project manager: well well mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: be before ta talking about the money and what 's possible and what is not possible , maybe anna you can uh give our uh give us your um marketing: mm-hmm . okay . and maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two . project manager: yes . evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at . marketing: okay . basically this is what we 've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we just wan na make sure that we 've taken into account project manager: well marketing: yep . project manager: just do it quickly if if we al already . marketing: so it 's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we 've identified as being important to selling the product . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we 'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so these are the things we identified as being important . um the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . and then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . so well do you wan na go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wan na discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , marketing: okay . so f just go through onto the whiteboard i guess . not sure how this is gon na come out . so the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'cause if we 're only going to make it for eight euros then we have a project manager: mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight euros we must think how can we improve it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half euro marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five euros industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five euro . industrial designer: functionality . marketing: okay so look and feel , innovation user interface: and now it easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: easy to use . project manager: mm . industrial designer: target . marketing: mm-hmm . and trends . oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? is that part of both of them or ? project manager: um well w w we can still discuss that . marketing: okay . project manager: so um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 've received uh a framework which we can do this . i mean did you have this this excel sheet ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: no . project manager: no okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve euro uh fifty cents uh . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: so maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . marketing: okay . yep . so it 's the pink . project manager: th th this is the first design . marketing: and the other one 's green . okay , so project manager: yes . marketing: look and feel ? where um one is i 've broken the pen again . s project manager: uh there is another pen . marketing: yeah . get that one . um w one 's bad and seven 's the best . sorry , one 's true and seven 's false . one 's the best . project manager: okay . marketing: so on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: 'kay . okay . so . look and feel . well you already feel that uh pretty much i think . user interface: project manager: in i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: so i i i would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but that 's just half , we should also consider look , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i it looks quite conventional . marketing: mm . project manager: do n't you agree ? user interface: mm yeah . marketing: on the scale u it 's between functional and fancy basically we 're looking at , project manager: so maybe two . hmm . hmm . ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: i it 's my opinion , but i do n't know what what user interface: well i will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it 's like the surf as you say marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you know . it though the look is fine but uh still i will give four in that case industrial designer: yeah . four maybe . user interface: you know . marketing: four ? okay . project manager: four , four . user interface: four yeah project manager: now we th th user interface: that marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: then we settle on four . user interface: yeah . i will gi yeah . marketing: project manager: 'kay . can you maybe fix the other industrial designer: uh . yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if you press like this not like this then you marketing: no that 's the industrial designer: user interface: no . marketing: ink 's dried . user interface: c can you get the batteries ? no no the battery has fallen down , marketing: battery 's low , is n't it the ink ? user interface: that 's i marketing: the b that 's the that that one ? user interface: yeah . marketing: battery there . industrial designer: but user interface: no no it 's not that , it 's how to close a battery . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay ? now it should be . marketing: mm . no i think it 's lost a battery . project manager: mm , try it , just try it . marketing: no it 's it would still write project manager: oh it will not marketing: but it would n't pick it up with the sensors . project manager: ri mm , mm . user interface: is there another battery there ? oh yeah . marketing: you got a second ? industrial designer: try a marketing: well we wo n't be able to tell . project manager: yes , it it has a mm . user interface: industrial designer: perfect . marketing: is that working ? industrial designer: marketing: did it come out ? good . okay . project manager: good . good . marketing: because we 'll be able to see it still even if it was n't working , it 's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: but it would n't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so then then marketing: and the other one ? industrial designer: wow . marketing: user interface: marketing: i think it 's slightly better , um , project manager: ah . mm . marketing: it 's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: i i i marketing: but project manager: when we want to include i i i 'm doubting about this this component . marketing: mm . project manager: it it it it breaks in your industrial designer: 'kay marketing: mm . industrial designer: maybe user interface: no actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: okay . user interface: it it 's n i it is jus industrial designer: it 's not a button it 's a led , it 's a user interface: it 's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: ac actually yeah it should be embedded . project manager: mm , yes i see , mm okay . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . user interface: it 's will be embedded there industrial designer: yeah . oh user interface: so it wo n't be really you know protruding or something . industrial designer: you can push push it again , you can push it . marketing: yeah . the other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: maybe it wo n't work so well . user interface: no you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: okay . project manager: well r r marketing: i 'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: mm . marketing: probably more towards three than two . project manager: i think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . so so i would also say this is four . marketing: okay . project manager: but w w do you what do you think ? user interface: uh it 's fine i think . my just that um the feel is that um you right now you you do n't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it 's embedded one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . mm . yes . user interface: this is how embedded one will project manager: yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: yeah . it 's a bas basically the same thing actually . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: you will be except that in this c industrial designer: and the lcd makes it better . yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: and you might have a slight thing for to forward and marketing: mm , okay . yeah industrial designer: so i will say two . marketing: it 's d it 's definitely more fancier than that one . project manager: yes , okay . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: i would say two , three . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: so , consensus ? two or three ? project manager: two ? marketing: two ? project manager: mm . two 's good industrial designer: yep . project manager: yes . user interface: looking like marketing: um , 'kay . innovation . the first one , not really muc industrial designer: basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: right ? marketing: do we user interface: no but except for the design of the surf . industrial designer: yeah . the surf uh design . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: what what features are we actually including ? user interface: you should be rea marketing: are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: uh no marketing: there 's nothing like that ? user interface: i think it 's more of the feel . marketing: but th is there any there 's no actual innovation in that at all , it 's just a straight-out remote control . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: the only innova innovation is the shape . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: say about that . marketing: okay . project manager: s so that marketing: so there 's no this uh look and feel thing , though that 's not a technological innovation . industrial designer: yeah . you 're right . user interface: yeah . marketing: so i 'd be up for seven for innovation . industrial designer: yeah . and the and the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation . user interface: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part . user interface: yeah , it gives it project manager: yes . a and the lcd screen is industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's that 's well it 's quite innovative . industrial designer: and all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh could put it at one or two i would say . personally . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . mm . mm . mm . mm . user interface: yep . marketing: so what is it , what are the innovations with this ? got the lcd screen . industrial designer: uh yeah automatic speech recognition . marketing: is that in this one though ? is this 'cause this is the th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: no , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . project manager: we just diske discuss it as you designed it marketing: okay . project manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the cost for these were industrial designer: so marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? eight euros ? project manager: eight . industrial designer: eight . well actually we have yeah to check again yeah . user interface: yeah , eight euros yeah . marketing: and this one was sixteen euros . project manager: yes . industrial designer: sixteen . user interface: sixteen euros . marketing: okay . so . innovation for this one is two ? one ? user interface: it 's a two , i would say two . marketing: two ? project manager: two . industrial designer: w w un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , i do n't see project manager: why it is one . industrial designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , . project manager: user interface: project manager: a man w w marketing: mm . well user interface: yeah . marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation i believe it , project manager: yes . industrial designer: bu marketing: so industrial designer: yeah . so maybe we can put one . project manager: this this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: it 's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: well . user interface: okay yeah . project manager: gi given that that it works , marketing: give it a one ? industrial designer: yeah , one , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: then it 's i think one . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: ease of use ? user interface: uh industrial designer: so the first one is really standard , marketing: mm . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: he is used to it act marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: they are used to it actually . marketing: yep . so that 's maybe a a two for ease of use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: here there may industrial designer: um , the other one is quite easy , tho though . user interface: uh , though it has more functionality i think it should n't be for the user to learn it actually . it should n't be diffi marketing: okay . so maybe a three or a four . project manager: hmm . user interface: uh yeah , actually in fact i think it will be industrial designer: one me um we hope user interface: yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah but y industrial designer: and there is a like i would say three . or maybe four . marketing: okay . consensus ? three or four ? user interface: well we have reduced the keys actually you see . project manager: three , i would . three . marketing: three ? okay . industrial designer: yeah , yeah user interface: three is fine with me . industrial designer: because it 's n uh it 's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , user interface: yeah it 's a project manager: no . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not so easy , like this one the normal . project manager: yeah . yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy . user interface: is quite easy yeah . project manager: so so i think th three is good . yeah . user interface: initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: good . marketing: so three 's project manager: what 's the next ? marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . so we 're d we 're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: so user interface: mm . project manager: twe twenty to forty , yes that 's marketing: that 's industrial designer: this one would be uh for grandmothers . marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: oh no , this would i industrial designer: no . user interface: i would i would give this model to the old people actually . industrial designer: yeah , grandmothers , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so sh completely changed our demographic there , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and marketing: it 's not part of the the funky young thing . project manager: well exce except for the surfing shape . i mean that 's that 's something which which has an appeal on this group i think , industrial designer: yeah that 's true . yeah . marketing: yeah . if it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then i can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's it 's still ye project manager: mm w w w we after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: mm . 'cause we have got room , we 've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: but as it is now , i w would say mm , six , something . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: oh yeah , . marketing: and project manager: do you agree ? user interface: i industrial designer: yeah because it 's so important it 's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: well i think marketing: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: yeah . uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it 's going to be cheap , actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but it 's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: but w user interface: so marketing: it was set with i we 've got a set price . user interface: and people can still decide to use the cheaper one industrial designer: yeah . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: but for us it 's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five euros . project manager: mm , yeah , indeed . marketing: yeah . there 's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few euros on that one rather than another one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: ju just think , twenty five euros , i mean it 's not going to be cheaper . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . so in that case well it 's fine then . marketing: okay . um project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: we can yeah . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: and the demographics of marketing: it 's got the got the the toys in it , it 's got the lcd screen project manager: yeah tha tha tha tha tha that 's marketing: and project manager: i think it 's better , marketing: mm . project manager: because of the lcd screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: yeah . project manager: on the and on the industrial designer: yeah . and if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , i think for this audience we need absolutely the lcd screen . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . so , the lcd screen uh attracts , marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i think especially if we 're gon na n have an lcd screen on a low range product then that 's good . project manager: because it mm , ma maybe that 's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . okay . project manager: so . wh what what marketing: i 'd probably go with three again for that one . user interface: yeah i think it 's uh it has more market actually . industrial designer: or even even one and two . or two . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: no s say t two . user interface: y yeah , you know marketing: okay . so , two , yeah ? user interface: two . project manager: two ? industrial designer: yeah . two yeah . user interface: yeah two yeah . because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: yeah . yep . and especially i guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it 's more of a a new fun toy . user interface: we have to practically test it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the field test will tell you how good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , the final point , trends . marketing: and following the trends . user interface: the trends . marketing: so the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: so as it is , not really doing either of them . project manager: i think industrial designer: spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: i know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but i 'm thinking one of the nokias that 's got like you ca it has n't got individual buttons industrial designer: uh okay . marketing: it 's got just a one bit on it project manager: mm . user interface: yeah i know . marketing: and so you can that feels kinda spongy . industrial designer: but this one includes this feature , right ? spongy buttons . marketing: so it 's sort of , yeah . user interface: yeah . we we we we we yeah , it 's the way they are going to be , actually . marketing: mm . okay . industrial designer: so uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie . marketing: but that 's if you 're using the covers . project manager: and the then we can al marketing: or is it just one industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . we can we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? i mean marketing: well they make it for mobiles , it ca n't be that much more complicated . user interface: but why do you want to cover that actually ? in that uh w in the mod project manager: well just with the with the flexible plastic uh marketing: so you got the option of having different colours or different textures . industrial designer: yeah . this is possible . project manager: i th i th i think user interface: uh uh y are you sure ? yeah i think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: o o or just two things which can be put on each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah exactly like nokia phones . marketing: mm . project manager: yes , exactly like it . user interface: yep . project manager: uh , so maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features . marketing: i think the if we do the cover that 's really going with the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: mm . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you 'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it 'll still be in fashion . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . 'cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it 's all black , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and uh it 's quite conventional , and sometimes people do n't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . marketing: mm . mm . industrial designer: so maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things . marketing: mm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: yep . mm . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: and then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers . project manager: yes . so so so that that would make the trends equal , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so we we we really have do n't have , marketing: mm . there 's n yeah . 'cause that 's the that 's the feature that could be included in either of them . project manager: i mean marketing: although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one . project manager: yes , indeed . industrial designer: yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two . marketing: okay . so . two and three , or one and two ? project manager: yes . marketing: user interface: yeah , it 's one . project manager: say , say one and two . one and two . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so le le let 's see . so d marketing: okay . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: yeah , the blue one uh spongy . user interface: yeah , it says a project manager: mm , i see , yes okay . good . marketing: okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five mm nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: just add it . industrial designer: nine . project manager: you know . three , six , seven . user interface: one point six , one point industrial designer: user interface: one point eight yeah . marketing: this one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: four point uh four point two . marketing: yep . industrial designer: very good . marketing: okay . but we still got a very different price for those two so they 're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: mm-hmm . we we must try to get them closer . industrial designer: yeah , it 's right , yeah that 's right . marketing: yep . project manager: both in i i user interface: wow . project manager: or we just have to choose . and adapt . marketing: yep . project manager: because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and w when we to d for this one we have to make it more cheap . marketing: well it 's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: yes , well marketing: that 'll basically take us down to the budget . project manager: but i 'm now did y did you work with the same prices that i have here ? industrial designer: so i i give yeah i just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh i explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen fr euros . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh unfortunately we did n't see this chip , uh matthew , user interface: yeah . yep . project manager: mm , tha industrial designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one . user interface: maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah . project manager: well yes , well uh re reconsider it . so let 's let 's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh what kind of energy source uh i i we did n't speak about that . it 's a it 's a normal battery , or user interface: yeah , it migh it it 'll need uh more than a conventional one , it wo n't be uh just maybe you might use a a_a_ battery actually . what do you say , mael ? industrial designer: for this one it 's a normal battery . project manager: yes . just so one battery . 'kay . electronics . given speech recognition i think w you should go for the less fancy chip . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh sample speaker , yeah . project manager: yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes . industrial designer: sample , yeah , this one . project manager: yes , this one . okay . case ? um , industrial designer: so user interface: curved . double curved yeah right . project manager: i see i user interface: it 's uh marketing: mm . project manager: double curve . marketing: yeah , it 's gon na be more than just the biggest case , definitely . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so which one are we talking to ? user interface: are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: well marketing: either of them . project manager: oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . they 're both going to be not basic cases . project manager: but , actually bu industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so th th this would be double curves ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . uh , plastic would be the material . marketing: yeah . the basic one , yep . industrial designer: is it zero franc ? user interface: a special colour ? project manager: uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: uh marketing: so now we 're either going button or lcds , lcd display . project manager: push . mm , yes , but industrial designer: lcd is . it 's okay . just say lcd . marketing: is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: ah good . marketing: so it would need twelve buttons . user interface: yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: no but for this one it 's twelve euro . user interface: no , for that one also . industrial designer: there are twelve ? project manager: so , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: yeah that 's a scroll . project manager: t yes . twelve i believe . so this comes to eighteen . marketing: mm . and that 's without any special button supplements . user interface: yeah , one scroll wheel you might need . project manager: so marketing: so we 'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . they 're not just standard buttons . user interface: uh project manager: so i think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: wait a minute , it 's not it 's not double curved , it 's single curved , right ? because it 's there is no like . marketing: but i thought it would be curved on two project manager: yes i marketing: it 's like it 's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that 's what i thought . project manager: yes i 'm i 'm no i 'm no i 'm not sh sure . industrial designer: well project manager: yes i kno undes i understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it 's you know this curve like this so , it 's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: you talking about concave curves ? project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah concave . project manager: both . industrial designer: so i think we can put um marketing: you think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . that makes uh seventeen . and what are just the bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes . uh marketing: we have more , we 've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: so marketing: and yeah industrial designer: i had a bad uh bad estimation . user interface: bad estimate , marketing: the sc project manager: w d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we have n't talk about a , but that 's no a is very exp inexpensive i believe marketing: mm . project manager: but it is not in the list . marketing: we 've got a scroll wheel for the volume do n't we , or is it some other thing that 's not on there . project manager: w ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: no no no . marketing: 'kay we 've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: yes , a kind of scroll wheel . marketing: so this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen euros . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: that is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: so um industrial designer: but still , yeah it user interface: we just need that actually . we need one . project manager: we 're we we could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we ca n't have the the speech recognition , yes ? yes ? industrial designer: no we can not , yeah . project manager: so so w when we w a industrial designer: so user interface: s project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: but the um yeah but if you have the near the lcd you can um choose select between um you know like uni universal between audio , tv and v_c_r_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: transti industrial designer: right , matthew ? user interface: oh i i it industrial designer: or regular chip ? user interface: i think it 's going to be y y industrial designer: i think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . user interface: yeah it 's th with the regular chip , yeah . project manager: say say it 's regular , regular chip , industrial designer: yeah . okay . okay . project manager: and we still on fifteen , user interface: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so . and what about the number of buttons buttons uh my matthew ? project manager: yes but that maybe well we can just say user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: one . industrial designer: when you look at this w , this u uh item , user interface: yeah . project manager: ca l we are just when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: but project manager: so is it possible ? marketing: but that 's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 'll be then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: you can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: no no , marketing: well project manager: he he he i i industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: so the lcd display is is three francs , sorry three euros , by itself . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we do n't want to to change that right ? we we really want a lcd user interface: uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market . project manager: otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this . industrial designer: it 's evident . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so twelve euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: and i dunno marketing: we ca n't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an lcd dispra display , that 's seven fifty um , so we 've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . and the chip . project manager: mm . marketing: sorry the chip 's up there already . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: so we 're gon na have to scale this down to get within budget , there 's no doubt about that . project manager: a industrial designer: so wha what what each of us think about the because it 's measure point the lcd , um do you think it 's important ? user interface: or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: because sometimes whe when you watch the tv in fact , you have a big display and maybe you do n't need one more in your hands ? i dunno , i 'm just asking . marketing: mm . project manager: mm user interface: a actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you 'll have lcd display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two euros at least . marketing: mm . yeah . i think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the lcd display . user interface: okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: yeah , it 's true yeah . user interface: and then add a couple of buttons . industrial designer: but uh , do we want that ? on the market point of view , yeah . what do you think uh , lcd is a major feature , or ? project manager: mm . i marketing: for the price , it 's gon na be what we can afford , and it 's looking like we ca n't afford the lcd display , there 's no way we can get it in there . mm . project manager: i think we have to come to a decision now , just i i think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the lcd uh display marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so industrial designer: you assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: yes . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: yes . yes . one man one vote . industrial designer: okay . project manager: s so who thinks the the lcd disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: i th i 'd like t it to be in but i ca n't see it happening . i ca n't see it fitting in . project manager: mm . mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: i think but industrial designer: we need to be . marketing: bu y you 're a power voter uh veto anyway as project manager . project manager: mm-hmm , i know , but industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . marketing: well we have to make a decision now , that 's it . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: so uh uh having an lcd s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . is that acceptable ? ca can i have can the functions be implement in an industrial designer: yes . project manager: you 've you you agree . user interface: w i i i just project manager: so hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons . industrial designer: because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . here one , at the middle , and at the bottom . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . i think then we we 're really losing ease of use . industrial designer: okay , . user interface: that will create another problem . for the people to use it . it 's not going to be easy . doing that . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . so um industrial designer: okay . project manager: i i think we should we should cut the lcd screen . that that 's that 's my opinion . user interface: no , it 's okay , you uh cut the lcd screen project manager: just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . marketing: okay . so lcd 's out , is speech rec out now ? we 've industrial designer: the speech recognition is out . because of the budget , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: uh where , l_c_ marketing: yep . project manager: okay w we now we can just uh marketing: so are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . with these new costings . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: so just look at forget that one and look at that one now . project manager: yes . yes . i th i th i think w we just go for this one industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: and that that now twelve euros is the is is the price , marketing: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . well that 's that 's project manager: my m my supervisor will be glad that it 's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: yep . industrial designer: actually yeah , marketing: so . industrial designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . so w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe project manager: okay . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that 's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment . project manager: okay , good . then we the same . thank you . user interface: okay . project manager: that was it . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: that 's it . cool . marketing: okay .

marketing recalled what the team had identified as being important to sell the product for both the devices and made a list of features from the marketing point of view . for both of the prototypes , marketing asked the team to give one to seven points to each feature of the product and the lower the points the better the feature . for instance , look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components that marketing wanted the team to discuss about . this might help with the conclusion whether the product was appealing to the correct demographic and incorporated the fashion trend into it .

what did the team discuss during the product evaluation ? </s> marketing: did you get my email with the slides ? ah . tricky . industrial designer: i guess i have to change the pen otherwise . will be completely different . marketing: dunno . maybe they 're supposed the pen 's supposed to go over the seats . might be seat floor rather than person . yeah , put it back . industrial designer: yeah . and do you think it 's . marketing: yep . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: jo 's making faces at me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . matthew is uh late again . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: probably an important man . um . so well it is important for him to be here uh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: he he he industrial designer: so what can you ? project manager: you did work together did n't you ? industrial designer: yeah we will yeah , so i will be able to to summarize uh our meeting , project manager: yes . industrial designer: but still i think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . i think we can put on the here . project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items . project manager: mm . um yes industrial designer: um , can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: yes , maybe we should phone him . um well um , industrial designer: it 's really w well designed . marketing: mm . mm , object tracking . project manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . um so just for record i i will take uh notes again . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: and um well first thing uh i was uh uh i got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: when you stay in it 's good , when you do n't stay in you have to redesign . there is no uh no negotiation uh possible in this matter . so we have to consider that . good . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um so maybe anna , you can have your presentation . marketing: well we ca n't no we ca n't do evaluation 'til we have a design . project manager: okay matthew . nice uh you are here . industrial designer: great . project manager: great . great . oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs . industrial designer: yep . so i will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight euros actually , right , seven eight euros , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it 's like a surf board . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf tv , maybe the web , and uh it 's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . marketing: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: or browse . industrial designer: and also it 's not too far from um a mobile . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so people are used to that kind of shape , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . do n't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we do n't take user interface: now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah . so here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eye . user interface: i yeah . industrial designer: yeah l_a_ l_a_ l_e_d_ , user interface: l_e_d_ . industrial designer: the on-off button , in red . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: here would be the volume . on the on the left , marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay , so user interface: mm-hmm , hmm . project manager: yes . industrial designer: easy to turn on t and off . and um so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on uh matthew . user interface: also so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can go up and down the channels , marketing: yeah . user interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back . industrial designer: how can you change from v_c_r_ to uh tv , by the way ? user interface: oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the tv one . industrial designer: okay yeah . yeah yeah . project manager: ah , okay . user interface: no no just sorry , this is a standard tv one , we are not talking about that . so and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . and the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay so project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's it 's t a very basic remote then , it 's only user interface: it 's a very basic minimal thing marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that 's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight euros . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: seven , eight , ei eight euros . project manager: exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so this one model marketing: can i see ? user interface: and uh yeah . sure . marketing: thanks . okay i like the volume control , that 's good . industrial designer: user interface: th this is a magic one but i know we do n't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it 's like uh it 's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . project manager: marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: so it does n't actually have buttons . user interface: so that uh then what we look t marketing: did you wan na see ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah no you can carry on , user interface: this is a model , project manager: i just look how it feels all . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yep . project manager: just i 'm industrial designer: yeah actually , yeah . project manager: i really want to talk to it . marketing: it wo n't talk back . project manager: but . industrial designer: project manager: so but but continue with your uh user interface: uh so well project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then the this is the a more a little uh smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but do n't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . marketing: right . project manager: mm . user interface: and so they have more space actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh it 's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a lcd display , here project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it 's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: from d_v_d_ player to television or something . industrial designer: exactly yeah . to audio and to video on demand . user interface: yeah . i really can change it , project manager: yes . user interface: so project manager: mm . user interface: instead of having many switches , y marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes and and and then you get feedback via the lcd yeah . user interface: the lcd can display what is that on that , industrial designer: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: this is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: or in the button th here , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display . industrial designer: an yeah . user interface: and here is a small l_e_d_ which is like blinking one , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as i was talking earlier project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . and uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you do n't need much of the time this , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: mm . yeah industrial designer: crazy dis designer , user interface: you know . industrial designer: okay . user interface: design enter . project manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . it 's basically to do that . project manager: but but the lcd screen i mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: which should n't be should n't be user interface: actually when you are watching the tv , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: oh actually well . project manager: that th that 's true . user interface: you know , uh you want to uh and this gives a protection to the lcd actually , giving a cover to that actually . gives a protection project manager: mm . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yes . yes , more robust . user interface: it 's more robust that way . uh yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes okay . user interface: and you have very good chances industrial designer: it 's low weight . you have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so the the cost is actually a bit more , it 's uh it 's it 's sixteen francs . user interface: it sixteen euros . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sixteen euros sorry . marketing: so it 's well outside the budget then . user interface: industrial designer: then it 's out of budget . project manager: but w industrial designer: but the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . and they say basically that the s_r_ system would be uh something like three francs per item user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: three euros . industrial designer: three euros sorry . and um marketing: that 's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: no no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: part of that . marketing: so that takes it down to thirteen euros without the speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm 'kay . hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: well uh if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i think th th yeah we should stick with uh a number of keys marketing: mm . industrial designer: because if we add too much then user interface: yeah project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: what 's this one on the side ? user interface: ah that 's for the it 's kind of a l_e_d_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: locati . location . marketing: ah okay . user interface: and as well as it 's like a blinking one marketing: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . user interface: you know industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you can keep it aside . marketing: i like the shape of them , i do like the the size and the the shape . project manager: well well mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: be before ta talking about the money and what 's possible and what is not possible , maybe anna you can uh give our uh give us your um marketing: mm-hmm . okay . and maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two . project manager: yes . evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at . marketing: okay . basically this is what we 've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we just wan na make sure that we 've taken into account project manager: well marketing: yep . project manager: just do it quickly if if we al already . marketing: so it 's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we 've identified as being important to selling the product . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we 'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so these are the things we identified as being important . um the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . and then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . so well do you wan na go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wan na discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , marketing: okay . so f just go through onto the whiteboard i guess . not sure how this is gon na come out . so the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'cause if we 're only going to make it for eight euros then we have a project manager: mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight euros we must think how can we improve it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half euro marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five euros industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five euro . industrial designer: functionality . marketing: okay so look and feel , innovation user interface: and now it easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: easy to use . project manager: mm . industrial designer: target . marketing: mm-hmm . and trends . oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? is that part of both of them or ? project manager: um well w w we can still discuss that . marketing: okay . project manager: so um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 've received uh a framework which we can do this . i mean did you have this this excel sheet ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: no . project manager: no okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve euro uh fifty cents uh . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: so maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . marketing: okay . yep . so it 's the pink . project manager: th th this is the first design . marketing: and the other one 's green . okay , so project manager: yes . marketing: look and feel ? where um one is i 've broken the pen again . s project manager: uh there is another pen . marketing: yeah . get that one . um w one 's bad and seven 's the best . sorry , one 's true and seven 's false . one 's the best . project manager: okay . marketing: so on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: 'kay . okay . so . look and feel . well you already feel that uh pretty much i think . user interface: project manager: in i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: so i i i would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but that 's just half , we should also consider look , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i it looks quite conventional . marketing: mm . project manager: do n't you agree ? user interface: mm yeah . marketing: on the scale u it 's between functional and fancy basically we 're looking at , project manager: so maybe two . hmm . hmm . ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: i it 's my opinion , but i do n't know what what user interface: well i will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it 's like the surf as you say marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you know . it though the look is fine but uh still i will give four in that case industrial designer: yeah . four maybe . user interface: you know . marketing: four ? okay . project manager: four , four . user interface: four yeah project manager: now we th th user interface: that marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: then we settle on four . user interface: yeah . i will gi yeah . marketing: project manager: 'kay . can you maybe fix the other industrial designer: uh . yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if you press like this not like this then you marketing: no that 's the industrial designer: user interface: no . marketing: ink 's dried . user interface: c can you get the batteries ? no no the battery has fallen down , marketing: battery 's low , is n't it the ink ? user interface: that 's i marketing: the b that 's the that that one ? user interface: yeah . marketing: battery there . industrial designer: but user interface: no no it 's not that , it 's how to close a battery . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay ? now it should be . marketing: mm . no i think it 's lost a battery . project manager: mm , try it , just try it . marketing: no it 's it would still write project manager: oh it will not marketing: but it would n't pick it up with the sensors . project manager: ri mm , mm . user interface: is there another battery there ? oh yeah . marketing: you got a second ? industrial designer: try a marketing: well we wo n't be able to tell . project manager: yes , it it has a mm . user interface: industrial designer: perfect . marketing: is that working ? industrial designer: marketing: did it come out ? good . okay . project manager: good . good . marketing: because we 'll be able to see it still even if it was n't working , it 's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: but it would n't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so then then marketing: and the other one ? industrial designer: wow . marketing: user interface: marketing: i think it 's slightly better , um , project manager: ah . mm . marketing: it 's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: i i i marketing: but project manager: when we want to include i i i 'm doubting about this this component . marketing: mm . project manager: it it it it breaks in your industrial designer: 'kay marketing: mm . industrial designer: maybe user interface: no actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: okay . user interface: it it 's n i it is jus industrial designer: it 's not a button it 's a led , it 's a user interface: it 's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: ac actually yeah it should be embedded . project manager: mm , yes i see , mm okay . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . user interface: it 's will be embedded there industrial designer: yeah . oh user interface: so it wo n't be really you know protruding or something . industrial designer: you can push push it again , you can push it . marketing: yeah . the other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: maybe it wo n't work so well . user interface: no you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: okay . project manager: well r r marketing: i 'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: mm . marketing: probably more towards three than two . project manager: i think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . so so i would also say this is four . marketing: okay . project manager: but w w do you what do you think ? user interface: uh it 's fine i think . my just that um the feel is that um you right now you you do n't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it 's embedded one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . mm . yes . user interface: this is how embedded one will project manager: yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: yeah . it 's a bas basically the same thing actually . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: you will be except that in this c industrial designer: and the lcd makes it better . yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: and you might have a slight thing for to forward and marketing: mm , okay . yeah industrial designer: so i will say two . marketing: it 's d it 's definitely more fancier than that one . project manager: yes , okay . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: i would say two , three . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: so , consensus ? two or three ? project manager: two ? marketing: two ? project manager: mm . two 's good industrial designer: yep . project manager: yes . user interface: looking like marketing: um , 'kay . innovation . the first one , not really muc industrial designer: basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: right ? marketing: do we user interface: no but except for the design of the surf . industrial designer: yeah . the surf uh design . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: what what features are we actually including ? user interface: you should be rea marketing: are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: uh no marketing: there 's nothing like that ? user interface: i think it 's more of the feel . marketing: but th is there any there 's no actual innovation in that at all , it 's just a straight-out remote control . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: the only innova innovation is the shape . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: say about that . marketing: okay . project manager: s so that marketing: so there 's no this uh look and feel thing , though that 's not a technological innovation . industrial designer: yeah . you 're right . user interface: yeah . marketing: so i 'd be up for seven for innovation . industrial designer: yeah . and the and the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation . user interface: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part . user interface: yeah , it gives it project manager: yes . a and the lcd screen is industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's that 's well it 's quite innovative . industrial designer: and all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh could put it at one or two i would say . personally . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . mm . mm . mm . mm . user interface: yep . marketing: so what is it , what are the innovations with this ? got the lcd screen . industrial designer: uh yeah automatic speech recognition . marketing: is that in this one though ? is this 'cause this is the th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: no , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . project manager: we just diske discuss it as you designed it marketing: okay . project manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the cost for these were industrial designer: so marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? eight euros ? project manager: eight . industrial designer: eight . well actually we have yeah to check again yeah . user interface: yeah , eight euros yeah . marketing: and this one was sixteen euros . project manager: yes . industrial designer: sixteen . user interface: sixteen euros . marketing: okay . so . innovation for this one is two ? one ? user interface: it 's a two , i would say two . marketing: two ? project manager: two . industrial designer: w w un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , i do n't see project manager: why it is one . industrial designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , . project manager: user interface: project manager: a man w w marketing: mm . well user interface: yeah . marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation i believe it , project manager: yes . industrial designer: bu marketing: so industrial designer: yeah . so maybe we can put one . project manager: this this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: it 's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: well . user interface: okay yeah . project manager: gi given that that it works , marketing: give it a one ? industrial designer: yeah , one , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: then it 's i think one . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: ease of use ? user interface: uh industrial designer: so the first one is really standard , marketing: mm . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: he is used to it act marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: they are used to it actually . marketing: yep . so that 's maybe a a two for ease of use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: here there may industrial designer: um , the other one is quite easy , tho though . user interface: uh , though it has more functionality i think it should n't be for the user to learn it actually . it should n't be diffi marketing: okay . so maybe a three or a four . project manager: hmm . user interface: uh yeah , actually in fact i think it will be industrial designer: one me um we hope user interface: yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah but y industrial designer: and there is a like i would say three . or maybe four . marketing: okay . consensus ? three or four ? user interface: well we have reduced the keys actually you see . project manager: three , i would . three . marketing: three ? okay . industrial designer: yeah , yeah user interface: three is fine with me . industrial designer: because it 's n uh it 's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , user interface: yeah it 's a project manager: no . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not so easy , like this one the normal . project manager: yeah . yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy . user interface: is quite easy yeah . project manager: so so i think th three is good . yeah . user interface: initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: good . marketing: so three 's project manager: what 's the next ? marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . so we 're d we 're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: so user interface: mm . project manager: twe twenty to forty , yes that 's marketing: that 's industrial designer: this one would be uh for grandmothers . marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: oh no , this would i industrial designer: no . user interface: i would i would give this model to the old people actually . industrial designer: yeah , grandmothers , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so sh completely changed our demographic there , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and marketing: it 's not part of the the funky young thing . project manager: well exce except for the surfing shape . i mean that 's that 's something which which has an appeal on this group i think , industrial designer: yeah that 's true . yeah . marketing: yeah . if it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then i can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's it 's still ye project manager: mm w w w we after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: mm . 'cause we have got room , we 've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: but as it is now , i w would say mm , six , something . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: oh yeah , . marketing: and project manager: do you agree ? user interface: i industrial designer: yeah because it 's so important it 's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: well i think marketing: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: yeah . uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it 's going to be cheap , actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but it 's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: but w user interface: so marketing: it was set with i we 've got a set price . user interface: and people can still decide to use the cheaper one industrial designer: yeah . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: but for us it 's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five euros . project manager: mm , yeah , indeed . marketing: yeah . there 's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few euros on that one rather than another one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: ju just think , twenty five euros , i mean it 's not going to be cheaper . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . so in that case well it 's fine then . marketing: okay . um project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: we can yeah . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: and the demographics of marketing: it 's got the got the the toys in it , it 's got the lcd screen project manager: yeah tha tha tha tha tha that 's marketing: and project manager: i think it 's better , marketing: mm . project manager: because of the lcd screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: yeah . project manager: on the and on the industrial designer: yeah . and if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , i think for this audience we need absolutely the lcd screen . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . so , the lcd screen uh attracts , marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i think especially if we 're gon na n have an lcd screen on a low range product then that 's good . project manager: because it mm , ma maybe that 's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . okay . project manager: so . wh what what marketing: i 'd probably go with three again for that one . user interface: yeah i think it 's uh it has more market actually . industrial designer: or even even one and two . or two . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: no s say t two . user interface: y yeah , you know marketing: okay . so , two , yeah ? user interface: two . project manager: two ? industrial designer: yeah . two yeah . user interface: yeah two yeah . because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: yeah . yep . and especially i guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it 's more of a a new fun toy . user interface: we have to practically test it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the field test will tell you how good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , the final point , trends . marketing: and following the trends . user interface: the trends . marketing: so the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: so as it is , not really doing either of them . project manager: i think industrial designer: spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: i know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but i 'm thinking one of the nokias that 's got like you ca it has n't got individual buttons industrial designer: uh okay . marketing: it 's got just a one bit on it project manager: mm . user interface: yeah i know . marketing: and so you can that feels kinda spongy . industrial designer: but this one includes this feature , right ? spongy buttons . marketing: so it 's sort of , yeah . user interface: yeah . we we we we we yeah , it 's the way they are going to be , actually . marketing: mm . okay . industrial designer: so uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie . marketing: but that 's if you 're using the covers . project manager: and the then we can al marketing: or is it just one industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . we can we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? i mean marketing: well they make it for mobiles , it ca n't be that much more complicated . user interface: but why do you want to cover that actually ? in that uh w in the mod project manager: well just with the with the flexible plastic uh marketing: so you got the option of having different colours or different textures . industrial designer: yeah . this is possible . project manager: i th i th i think user interface: uh uh y are you sure ? yeah i think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: o o or just two things which can be put on each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah exactly like nokia phones . marketing: mm . project manager: yes , exactly like it . user interface: yep . project manager: uh , so maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features . marketing: i think the if we do the cover that 's really going with the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: mm . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you 'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it 'll still be in fashion . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . 'cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it 's all black , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and uh it 's quite conventional , and sometimes people do n't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . marketing: mm . mm . industrial designer: so maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things . marketing: mm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: yep . mm . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: and then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers . project manager: yes . so so so that that would make the trends equal , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so we we we really have do n't have , marketing: mm . there 's n yeah . 'cause that 's the that 's the feature that could be included in either of them . project manager: i mean marketing: although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one . project manager: yes , indeed . industrial designer: yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two . marketing: okay . so . two and three , or one and two ? project manager: yes . marketing: user interface: yeah , it 's one . project manager: say , say one and two . one and two . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so le le let 's see . so d marketing: okay . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: yeah , the blue one uh spongy . user interface: yeah , it says a project manager: mm , i see , yes okay . good . marketing: okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five mm nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: just add it . industrial designer: nine . project manager: you know . three , six , seven . user interface: one point six , one point industrial designer: user interface: one point eight yeah . marketing: this one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: four point uh four point two . marketing: yep . industrial designer: very good . marketing: okay . but we still got a very different price for those two so they 're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: mm-hmm . we we must try to get them closer . industrial designer: yeah , it 's right , yeah that 's right . marketing: yep . project manager: both in i i user interface: wow . project manager: or we just have to choose . and adapt . marketing: yep . project manager: because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and w when we to d for this one we have to make it more cheap . marketing: well it 's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: yes , well marketing: that 'll basically take us down to the budget . project manager: but i 'm now did y did you work with the same prices that i have here ? industrial designer: so i i give yeah i just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh i explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen fr euros . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh unfortunately we did n't see this chip , uh matthew , user interface: yeah . yep . project manager: mm , tha industrial designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one . user interface: maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah . project manager: well yes , well uh re reconsider it . so let 's let 's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh what kind of energy source uh i i we did n't speak about that . it 's a it 's a normal battery , or user interface: yeah , it migh it it 'll need uh more than a conventional one , it wo n't be uh just maybe you might use a a_a_ battery actually . what do you say , mael ? industrial designer: for this one it 's a normal battery . project manager: yes . just so one battery . 'kay . electronics . given speech recognition i think w you should go for the less fancy chip . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh sample speaker , yeah . project manager: yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes . industrial designer: sample , yeah , this one . project manager: yes , this one . okay . case ? um , industrial designer: so user interface: curved . double curved yeah right . project manager: i see i user interface: it 's uh marketing: mm . project manager: double curve . marketing: yeah , it 's gon na be more than just the biggest case , definitely . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so which one are we talking to ? user interface: are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: well marketing: either of them . project manager: oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . they 're both going to be not basic cases . project manager: but , actually bu industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so th th this would be double curves ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . uh , plastic would be the material . marketing: yeah . the basic one , yep . industrial designer: is it zero franc ? user interface: a special colour ? project manager: uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: uh marketing: so now we 're either going button or lcds , lcd display . project manager: push . mm , yes , but industrial designer: lcd is . it 's okay . just say lcd . marketing: is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: ah good . marketing: so it would need twelve buttons . user interface: yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: no but for this one it 's twelve euro . user interface: no , for that one also . industrial designer: there are twelve ? project manager: so , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: yeah that 's a scroll . project manager: t yes . twelve i believe . so this comes to eighteen . marketing: mm . and that 's without any special button supplements . user interface: yeah , one scroll wheel you might need . project manager: so marketing: so we 'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . they 're not just standard buttons . user interface: uh project manager: so i think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: wait a minute , it 's not it 's not double curved , it 's single curved , right ? because it 's there is no like . marketing: but i thought it would be curved on two project manager: yes i marketing: it 's like it 's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that 's what i thought . project manager: yes i 'm i 'm no i 'm no i 'm not sh sure . industrial designer: well project manager: yes i kno undes i understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it 's you know this curve like this so , it 's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: you talking about concave curves ? project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah concave . project manager: both . industrial designer: so i think we can put um marketing: you think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . that makes uh seventeen . and what are just the bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes . uh marketing: we have more , we 've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: so marketing: and yeah industrial designer: i had a bad uh bad estimation . user interface: bad estimate , marketing: the sc project manager: w d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we have n't talk about a , but that 's no a is very exp inexpensive i believe marketing: mm . project manager: but it is not in the list . marketing: we 've got a scroll wheel for the volume do n't we , or is it some other thing that 's not on there . project manager: w ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: no no no . marketing: 'kay we 've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: yes , a kind of scroll wheel . marketing: so this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen euros . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: that is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: so um industrial designer: but still , yeah it user interface: we just need that actually . we need one . project manager: we 're we we could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we ca n't have the the speech recognition , yes ? yes ? industrial designer: no we can not , yeah . project manager: so so w when we w a industrial designer: so user interface: s project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: but the um yeah but if you have the near the lcd you can um choose select between um you know like uni universal between audio , tv and v_c_r_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: transti industrial designer: right , matthew ? user interface: oh i i it industrial designer: or regular chip ? user interface: i think it 's going to be y y industrial designer: i think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . user interface: yeah it 's th with the regular chip , yeah . project manager: say say it 's regular , regular chip , industrial designer: yeah . okay . okay . project manager: and we still on fifteen , user interface: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so . and what about the number of buttons buttons uh my matthew ? project manager: yes but that maybe well we can just say user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: one . industrial designer: when you look at this w , this u uh item , user interface: yeah . project manager: ca l we are just when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: but project manager: so is it possible ? marketing: but that 's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 'll be then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: you can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: no no , marketing: well project manager: he he he i i industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: so the lcd display is is three francs , sorry three euros , by itself . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we do n't want to to change that right ? we we really want a lcd user interface: uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market . project manager: otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this . industrial designer: it 's evident . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so twelve euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: and i dunno marketing: we ca n't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an lcd dispra display , that 's seven fifty um , so we 've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . and the chip . project manager: mm . marketing: sorry the chip 's up there already . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: so we 're gon na have to scale this down to get within budget , there 's no doubt about that . project manager: a industrial designer: so wha what what each of us think about the because it 's measure point the lcd , um do you think it 's important ? user interface: or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: because sometimes whe when you watch the tv in fact , you have a big display and maybe you do n't need one more in your hands ? i dunno , i 'm just asking . marketing: mm . project manager: mm user interface: a actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you 'll have lcd display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two euros at least . marketing: mm . yeah . i think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the lcd display . user interface: okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: yeah , it 's true yeah . user interface: and then add a couple of buttons . industrial designer: but uh , do we want that ? on the market point of view , yeah . what do you think uh , lcd is a major feature , or ? project manager: mm . i marketing: for the price , it 's gon na be what we can afford , and it 's looking like we ca n't afford the lcd display , there 's no way we can get it in there . mm . project manager: i think we have to come to a decision now , just i i think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the lcd uh display marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so industrial designer: you assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: yes . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: yes . yes . one man one vote . industrial designer: okay . project manager: s so who thinks the the lcd disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: i th i 'd like t it to be in but i ca n't see it happening . i ca n't see it fitting in . project manager: mm . mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: i think but industrial designer: we need to be . marketing: bu y you 're a power voter uh veto anyway as project manager . project manager: mm-hmm , i know , but industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . marketing: well we have to make a decision now , that 's it . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: so uh uh having an lcd s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . is that acceptable ? ca can i have can the functions be implement in an industrial designer: yes . project manager: you 've you you agree . user interface: w i i i just project manager: so hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons . industrial designer: because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . here one , at the middle , and at the bottom . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . i think then we we 're really losing ease of use . industrial designer: okay , . user interface: that will create another problem . for the people to use it . it 's not going to be easy . doing that . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . so um industrial designer: okay . project manager: i i think we should we should cut the lcd screen . that that 's that 's my opinion . user interface: no , it 's okay , you uh cut the lcd screen project manager: just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . marketing: okay . so lcd 's out , is speech rec out now ? we 've industrial designer: the speech recognition is out . because of the budget , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: uh where , l_c_ marketing: yep . project manager: okay w we now we can just uh marketing: so are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . with these new costings . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: so just look at forget that one and look at that one now . project manager: yes . yes . i th i th i think w we just go for this one industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: and that that now twelve euros is the is is the price , marketing: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . well that 's that 's project manager: my m my supervisor will be glad that it 's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: yep . industrial designer: actually yeah , marketing: so . industrial designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . so w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe project manager: okay . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that 's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment . project manager: okay , good . then we the same . thank you . user interface: okay . project manager: that was it . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: that 's it . cool . marketing: okay .

the team agreed that although the cover was movable , the case design was moderate . also , the way the device could be held was not attractive and easy for all , since the left-handed people would choose to use it with the other hand , which made it really annoying . when it came to innovation , industrial designer believed basically there was no innovation in the first one compared to what existed in the market . however , the second design was extremely innovative as it had incorporated all the scrolling buttons and its automatic speech recognition function . besides , the two products aimed at the target customers well , with the first standard one for the old group while the second one for those between twenty to forty five . lastly , the team concluded that they had successfully answered the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in electronics .

what did the team discuss about the product cost ? </s> marketing: did you get my email with the slides ? ah . tricky . industrial designer: i guess i have to change the pen otherwise . will be completely different . marketing: dunno . maybe they 're supposed the pen 's supposed to go over the seats . might be seat floor rather than person . yeah , put it back . industrial designer: yeah . and do you think it 's . marketing: yep . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: jo 's making faces at me . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . matthew is uh late again . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: probably an important man . um . so well it is important for him to be here uh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: he he he industrial designer: so what can you ? project manager: you did work together did n't you ? industrial designer: yeah we will yeah , so i will be able to to summarize uh our meeting , project manager: yes . industrial designer: but still i think uh it would be in very important if the uh as um main designer . i think we can put on the here . project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: uh basically w yeah we we designed the two uh items . project manager: mm . um yes industrial designer: um , can we have a phone , project manager: but w we industrial designer: can someone project manager: yes , maybe we should phone him . um well um , industrial designer: it 's really w well designed . marketing: mm . mm , object tracking . project manager: when he is not here we will just we just have to continue . um so just for record i i will take uh notes again . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: and um well first thing uh i was uh uh i got an email from uh from my superior again that we really should stay within the budget of the uh twelve euro and fifty cents . industrial designer: 'kay . project manager: when you stay in it 's good , when you do n't stay in you have to redesign . there is no uh no negotiation uh possible in this matter . so we have to consider that . good . industrial designer: yep . project manager: um so maybe anna , you can have your presentation . marketing: well we ca n't no we ca n't do evaluation 'til we have a design . project manager: okay matthew . nice uh you are here . industrial designer: great . project manager: great . great . oh ma maybe then you can start now with mm presenting your uh your designs . industrial designer: yep . so i will start by the the basic one that uh fits into uh eight euros actually , right , seven eight euros , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh well first for both they have um a special shape , maybe the designer can uh explain better than me , but uh it 's like a surf board . marketing: mm 'kay . industrial designer: and you you are supposed to surf to browse to surf tv , maybe the web , and uh it 's kind of interesting shape because um unconsciously people want to s to surf when they see this stuff . marketing: project manager: user interface: project manager: user interface: or browse . industrial designer: and also it 's not too far from um a mobile . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so people are used to that kind of shape , user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . do n't take care too much about the colour because w yeah we do n't take user interface: now we are supposed to give some oper offers right now . industrial designer: yeah . so here would be basically the the the infrared uh uh led marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: eye . user interface: i yeah . industrial designer: yeah l_a_ l_a_ l_e_d_ , user interface: l_e_d_ . industrial designer: the on-off button , in red . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: here would be the volume . on the on the left , marketing: oh yeah . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: okay , so user interface: mm-hmm , hmm . project manager: yes . industrial designer: easy to turn on t and off . and um so this is a very cheap version so there are maybe you can carry on uh matthew . user interface: also so you have uh uh browsing the channels , actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: so you can go up and down the channels , marketing: yeah . user interface: uh , if you have a video or something you can forward , back . industrial designer: how can you change from v_c_r_ to uh tv , by the way ? user interface: oh no no no , this is a single this this is a model with just the tv one . industrial designer: okay yeah . yeah yeah . project manager: ah , okay . user interface: no no just sorry , this is a standard tv one , we are not talking about that . so and then we have usually there twelve keys but we know that we rel that we have only ten digits . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the extra two are for uh having or giving an option for uh having more than one channel . and the other one is for the teletext or something you want to browse through from that . actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay so project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: it 's it 's t a very basic remote then , it 's only user interface: it 's a very basic minimal thing marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: which you can which is which is also available in the market , actually that 's what it that it i industrial designer: user interface: and would cost us to build it about eight euros . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . industrial designer: seven , eight , ei eight euros . project manager: exce except for the for the special shape , the surfing board , it has a quite a a conventional layout of buttons uh . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so this one model marketing: can i see ? user interface: and uh yeah . sure . marketing: thanks . okay i like the volume control , that 's good . industrial designer: user interface: th this is a magic one but i know we do n't want to talk about that , marketing: user interface: you know like industrial designer: user interface: uh i i i it is a very futuristic , it 's like uh it 's like a brain machine interface and all this stuff we are thinking about in the future , it can come . project manager: marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: marketing: so it does n't actually have buttons . user interface: so that uh then what we look t marketing: did you wan na see ? user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . yeah no you can carry on , user interface: this is a model , project manager: i just look how it feels all . user interface: yeah . project manager: yes it really feels like like like a mobile phone . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yep . project manager: just i 'm industrial designer: yeah actually , yeah . project manager: i really want to talk to it . marketing: it wo n't talk back . project manager: but . industrial designer: project manager: so but but continue with your uh user interface: uh so well project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: then the this is the a more a little uh smooth industrial designer: user interface: and it gives a lot of functionality , uh in this way , so all we have uh th you see there are only six keys , but do n't worry they are ma they are doing the job of twelve keys actually here . marketing: right . project manager: mm . user interface: and so they have more space actually marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh it 's easy to uh use this and uh you have um so this is a standard uh uh infrared eye , and then you have a power button , which l volume , what you have , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and then other than that you have uh channel up and down and uh f slow pause or s slow lo industrial designer: play , pause . user interface: yeah s pause or stop , and uh then uh you can uh you have a lcd display , here project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh y this is a functional thing which can change like it 's a toggle switch which could change the function say , y you press it project manager: from d_v_d_ player to television or something . industrial designer: exactly yeah . to audio and to video on demand . user interface: yeah . i really can change it , project manager: yes . user interface: so project manager: mm . user interface: instead of having many switches , y marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yes and and and then you get feedback via the lcd yeah . user interface: the lcd can display what is that on that , industrial designer: yes . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and uh well you can have a integrated microphone over here , industrial designer: this is the orange button , the microphone . user interface: or in the button th here , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so which can uh basically you want to do a speech recognition and uh that channel a lot of information can be di displayed here directly on the um on your on your display . industrial designer: an yeah . user interface: and here is a small l_e_d_ which is like blinking one , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: which tells you like uh are you running out of the battery , and which is can be useful for the locating as i was talking earlier project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . and uh well then we have a cover basically , basically you do n't need much of the time this , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: when you need you can use it , and this gives additional functionality that tomorrow you want you can add a tactile thing to this cover project manager: mm . yeah industrial designer: crazy dis designer , user interface: you know . industrial designer: okay . user interface: design enter . project manager: but but but but uh i in there uh when this is closed , will it also uh cover up the lcd screen ? user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . it 's basically to do that . project manager: but but the lcd screen i mean is a very uh well an eye-attracting feature industrial designer: yeah . user interface: project manager: which should n't be should n't be user interface: actually when you are watching the tv , when you are watching anything or listening to them , you hardly care about what is getting displayed here , industrial designer: oh actually well . project manager: that th that 's true . user interface: you know , uh you want to uh and this gives a protection to the lcd actually , giving a cover to that actually . gives a protection project manager: mm . user interface: because when it falls down or something it it is it is is is it gives a protec project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . yes . yes , more robust . user interface: it 's more robust that way . uh yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes okay . user interface: and you have very good chances industrial designer: it 's low weight . you have to see yeah yeah the the components we put inside is very low weight . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so the the cost is actually a bit more , it 's uh it 's it 's sixteen francs . user interface: it sixteen euros . project manager: okay . industrial designer: sixteen euros sorry . marketing: so it 's well outside the budget then . user interface: industrial designer: then it 's out of budget . project manager: but w industrial designer: but the the main point we we talk about that with our uh manufacturer . and they say basically that the s_r_ system would be uh something like three francs per item user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so user interface: three euros . industrial designer: three euros sorry . and um marketing: that 's on top of the sixteen , or is it part of that ? industrial designer: no no no , part of that , yeah . user interface: part of that . marketing: so that takes it down to thirteen euros without the speech recognition . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm 'kay . hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: well uh if you we can have if you have new more ideas we can add new more uh some more keys if you want to you know project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: well i think th th yeah we should stick with uh a number of keys marketing: mm . industrial designer: because if we add too much then user interface: yeah project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: it 's too user interface: it it should not be cluttering up everything . marketing: what 's this one on the side ? user interface: ah that 's for the it 's kind of a l_e_d_ for indicating your battery industrial designer: locati . location . marketing: ah okay . user interface: and as well as it 's like a blinking one marketing: mm-hmm . mm 'kay . user interface: you know industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you can keep it aside . marketing: i like the shape of them , i do like the the size and the the shape . project manager: well well mm . user interface: yeah . project manager: be before ta talking about the money and what 's possible and what is not possible , maybe anna you can uh give our uh give us your um marketing: mm-hmm . okay . and maybe we run the evaluation on both of the products , both of these two . project manager: yes . evalua evaluation and also the evaluation criteria , so what what is important to look at . marketing: okay . basically this is what we 've talked about already , um , from the marketing point of view . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: we just wan na make sure that we 've taken into account project manager: well marketing: yep . project manager: just do it quickly if if we al already . marketing: so it 's just a shortlist of criteria on um the things that we 've identified as being important to selling the product . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um we just go through these and rate them as a group and then at the end we 'll make an evaluation based on that , so just average the score of those items , so these are the things we identified as being important . um the three things were look and feel , innovation and ease of use , were the three important components project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um appealing to the correct demographic so using those things in the right way to appeal to our demographic . and then goin following the company motto , following the fashion trends and putting that into the product as well . so well do you wan na go through and put through those on the the two products now or do we wan na discuss them further and then evaluate them ? project manager: um , n no why not why not discuss uh discuss it now , marketing: okay . so f just go through onto the whiteboard i guess . not sure how this is gon na come out . so the first one was really very far below budget , would you want to take the price down of the end product according to that or just have the high profit on it ? 'cause if we 're only going to make it for eight euros then we have a project manager: mm , well my my personal view is uh w when when this one is eight euros we must think how can we improve it . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i mean w w w you must just see it we can still spend this four and a half euro marketing: mm-hmm . yep . project manager: and to r because th th th the the selling price is already prite fik uh uh quite fixed on twenty five euros industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so we just have to offer as much as as well value for the for the customer uh he can have for twenty five euro . industrial designer: functionality . marketing: okay so look and feel , innovation user interface: and now it easy to use . marketing: industrial designer: easy to use . project manager: mm . industrial designer: target . marketing: mm-hmm . and trends . oh , you following the idea of using the um removable covers on these ? is that part of both of them or ? project manager: um well w w we can still discuss that . marketing: okay . project manager: so um , and together with evaluating this uh we we might come with new ideas marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i mean adding things or uh removing uh of options because they are too expensive , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but um i 've received uh a framework which we can do this . i mean did you have this this excel sheet ? marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no . user interface: no . marketing: no . project manager: no okay , this is these are the the the latest prices of our production uh uh production unit for several components , industrial designer: project manager: so we can uh see whether the the price is is within the twelve euro uh fifty cents uh . marketing: mm-hmm . okay . project manager: so maybe we can start with this , uh , calling this one . marketing: okay . yep . so it 's the pink . project manager: th th this is the first design . marketing: and the other one 's green . okay , so project manager: yes . marketing: look and feel ? where um one is i 've broken the pen again . s project manager: uh there is another pen . marketing: yeah . get that one . um w one 's bad and seven 's the best . sorry , one 's true and seven 's false . one 's the best . project manager: okay . marketing: so on a scale of one to seven ? project manager: 'kay . okay . so . look and feel . well you already feel that uh pretty much i think . user interface: project manager: in i in my opinion purely feel is is is very good , is very good in your hand , marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm , yeah . mm-hmm . project manager: so i i i would consider two or or may maybe even one for feel . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but that 's just half , we should also consider look , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and then i it looks quite conventional . marketing: mm . project manager: do n't you agree ? user interface: mm yeah . marketing: on the scale u it 's between functional and fancy basically we 're looking at , project manager: so maybe two . hmm . hmm . ma ma ma ma maybe say say five marketing: so project manager: i it 's my opinion , but i do n't know what what user interface: well i will give it maybe we have anyways the way we have designed it 's like the surf as you say marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: you know . it though the look is fine but uh still i will give four in that case industrial designer: yeah . four maybe . user interface: you know . marketing: four ? okay . project manager: four , four . user interface: four yeah project manager: now we th th user interface: that marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: then we settle on four . user interface: yeah . i will gi yeah . marketing: project manager: 'kay . can you maybe fix the other industrial designer: uh . yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if you press like this not like this then you marketing: no that 's the industrial designer: user interface: no . marketing: ink 's dried . user interface: c can you get the batteries ? no no the battery has fallen down , marketing: battery 's low , is n't it the ink ? user interface: that 's i marketing: the b that 's the that that one ? user interface: yeah . marketing: battery there . industrial designer: but user interface: no no it 's not that , it 's how to close a battery . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay ? now it should be . marketing: mm . no i think it 's lost a battery . project manager: mm , try it , just try it . marketing: no it 's it would still write project manager: oh it will not marketing: but it would n't pick it up with the sensors . project manager: ri mm , mm . user interface: is there another battery there ? oh yeah . marketing: you got a second ? industrial designer: try a marketing: well we wo n't be able to tell . project manager: yes , it it has a mm . user interface: industrial designer: perfect . marketing: is that working ? industrial designer: marketing: did it come out ? good . okay . project manager: good . good . marketing: because we 'll be able to see it still even if it was n't working , it 's just a normal whiteboard marker industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: but it would n't be picked up on the the actual whiteboard . industrial designer: yep . project manager: okay . so then then marketing: and the other one ? industrial designer: wow . marketing: user interface: marketing: i think it 's slightly better , um , project manager: ah . mm . marketing: it 's hard to tell from just the plasticine , project manager: i i i marketing: but project manager: when we want to include i i i 'm doubting about this this component . marketing: mm . project manager: it it it it breaks in your industrial designer: 'kay marketing: mm . industrial designer: maybe user interface: no actually this is this is not going to protrude actually , marketing: okay . user interface: it it 's n i it is jus industrial designer: it 's not a button it 's a led , it 's a user interface: it 's a led actually which which 'll be covering in a curve industrial designer: ac actually yeah it should be embedded . project manager: mm , yes i see , mm okay . marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . user interface: it 's will be embedded there industrial designer: yeah . oh user interface: so it wo n't be really you know protruding or something . industrial designer: you can push push it again , you can push it . marketing: yeah . the other thing is , is the left hand one protruding ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if people are left handed they want to use the other hand , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: maybe it wo n't work so well . user interface: no you it it not protruding actually , it will go in better into that marketing: okay . project manager: well r r marketing: i 'd say two or three for that one , personally . project manager: mm . marketing: probably more towards three than two . project manager: i think the look is better industrial designer: project manager: but the feel is is is worse . so so i would also say this is four . marketing: okay . project manager: but w w do you what do you think ? user interface: uh it 's fine i think . my just that um the feel is that um you right now you you do n't see the feel because right uh for example if you press it quite inside now like this , now it 's embedded one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm . mm . yes . user interface: this is how embedded one will project manager: yes , it basically is the same shape . user interface: yeah . it 's a bas basically the same thing actually . project manager: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: you will be except that in this c industrial designer: and the lcd makes it better . yeah . user interface: yeah project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: and you might have a slight thing for to forward and marketing: mm , okay . yeah industrial designer: so i will say two . marketing: it 's d it 's definitely more fancier than that one . project manager: yes , okay . user interface: yeah , yeah . industrial designer: i would say two , three . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: so , consensus ? two or three ? project manager: two ? marketing: two ? project manager: mm . two 's good industrial designer: yep . project manager: yes . user interface: looking like marketing: um , 'kay . innovation . the first one , not really muc industrial designer: basically there is no innovation in the first one compared to what exists in the market , marketing: mm . yeah . industrial designer: right ? marketing: do we user interface: no but except for the design of the surf . industrial designer: yeah . the surf uh design . marketing: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: what what features are we actually including ? user interface: you should be rea marketing: are we including like a location kind of thing like trying to find it ? user interface: uh no marketing: there 's nothing like that ? user interface: i think it 's more of the feel . marketing: but th is there any there 's no actual innovation in that at all , it 's just a straight-out remote control . user interface: yeah , yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: the only innova innovation is the shape . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: say about that . marketing: okay . project manager: s so that marketing: so there 's no this uh look and feel thing , though that 's not a technological innovation . industrial designer: yeah . you 're right . user interface: yeah . marketing: so i 'd be up for seven for innovation . industrial designer: yeah . and the and the second one is really uh state of the art , uh in terms of innovation . user interface: yep . project manager: mm . industrial designer: and um with many more functionalities , and can open and close the the bottom part . user interface: yeah , it gives it project manager: yes . a and the lcd screen is industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's that 's that 's well it 's quite innovative . industrial designer: and all the scrolling uh buttons and menu and pro programmable device behind this . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh could put it at one or two i would say . personally . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . mm . mm . mm . mm . user interface: yep . marketing: so what is it , what are the innovations with this ? got the lcd screen . industrial designer: uh yeah automatic speech recognition . marketing: is that in this one though ? is this 'cause this is the th th there were different options we discussed then , user interface: no , we ha marketing: we discussed the one that was in budget and the one that was out of budget . project manager: we just diske discuss it as you designed it marketing: okay . project manager: and then we will will try to get it in the budget . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the cost for these were industrial designer: so marketing: what was the cost for the first one ? eight euros ? project manager: eight . industrial designer: eight . well actually we have yeah to check again yeah . user interface: yeah , eight euros yeah . marketing: and this one was sixteen euros . project manager: yes . industrial designer: sixteen . user interface: sixteen euros . marketing: okay . so . innovation for this one is two ? one ? user interface: it 's a two , i would say two . marketing: two ? project manager: two . industrial designer: w w un to be one what would do we nee actually , yeah , i do n't see project manager: why it is one . industrial designer: okay , one would would be without buttons , . project manager: user interface: project manager: a man w w marketing: mm . well user interface: yeah . marketing: the speech recognition is a very good innovation i believe it , project manager: yes . industrial designer: bu marketing: so industrial designer: yeah . so maybe we can put one . project manager: this this is it w with the speech recognition ? industrial designer: it 's using speech recognition , yeah . project manager: well . user interface: okay yeah . project manager: gi given that that it works , marketing: give it a one ? industrial designer: yeah , one , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: then it 's i think one . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: ease of use ? user interface: uh industrial designer: so the first one is really standard , marketing: mm . industrial designer: so everybody i including our grandmothers can use it , user interface: he is used to it act marketing: yeah . project manager: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: they are used to it actually . marketing: yep . so that 's maybe a a two for ease of use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: here there may industrial designer: um , the other one is quite easy , tho though . user interface: uh , though it has more functionality i think it should n't be for the user to learn it actually . it should n't be diffi marketing: okay . so maybe a three or a four . project manager: hmm . user interface: uh yeah , actually in fact i think it will be industrial designer: one me um we hope user interface: yeah industrial designer: maybe sometimes people get uh scared with the number of buttons . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah but y industrial designer: and there is a like i would say three . or maybe four . marketing: okay . consensus ? three or four ? user interface: well we have reduced the keys actually you see . project manager: three , i would . three . marketing: three ? okay . industrial designer: yeah , yeah user interface: three is fine with me . industrial designer: because it 's n uh it 's not like a big one with uh one hundred buttons or so , user interface: yeah it 's a project manager: no . user interface: actually the user has to put some effort to do use that actually , marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: it 's not so easy , like this one the normal . project manager: yeah . yes but then when when he is used to it , i i it is quite easy . user interface: is quite easy yeah . project manager: so so i think th three is good . yeah . user interface: initially there there is a lot of effort , yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: good . marketing: so three 's project manager: what 's the next ? marketing: uh how well it goes to the target demographic . so we 're d we 're still thinking twenty to forty year olds ? project manager: so user interface: mm . project manager: twe twenty to forty , yes that 's marketing: that 's industrial designer: this one would be uh for grandmothers . marketing: mm . project manager: user interface: oh no , this would i industrial designer: no . user interface: i would i would give this model to the old people actually . industrial designer: yeah , grandmothers , yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so sh completely changed our demographic there , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and marketing: it 's not part of the the funky young thing . project manager: well exce except for the surfing shape . i mean that 's that 's something which which has an appeal on this group i think , industrial designer: yeah that 's true . yeah . marketing: yeah . if it was the very bottom price range or it was like between this and another one we did the same thing then i can imagine it being applying to the the demographic project manager: but industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . that 's it 's still ye project manager: mm w w w we after this we can can consider uh for instance , making this more attractive to to the demographic marketing: mm . 'cause we have got room , we 've got some budget there to add a few things to it , project manager: mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: but as it is now , i w would say mm , six , something . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: oh yeah , . marketing: and project manager: do you agree ? user interface: i industrial designer: yeah because it 's so important it 's i it was written that it really so important , the um the the look and uh taking care of its it targets , the right range of people , user interface: well i think marketing: mm . industrial designer: right ? user interface: yeah . uh yeah but but if you sell it in the market it 's going to be cheap , actually . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but it 's going to be cheap whatever though , industrial designer: but w user interface: so marketing: it was set with i we 've got a set price . user interface: and people can still decide to use the cheaper one industrial designer: yeah . user interface: instead of a industrial designer: but for us it 's yeah we have a constraint that we need to sell at twenty five euros . project manager: mm , yeah , indeed . marketing: yeah . there 's nothing that would make me spend an extra k few euros on that one rather than another one . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: ju just think , twenty five euros , i mean it 's not going to be cheaper . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay . so in that case well it 's fine then . marketing: okay . um project manager: mm . mm . okay . user interface: we can yeah . marketing: and the demokraphi demographic of the second one ? user interface: and the demographics of marketing: it 's got the got the the toys in it , it 's got the lcd screen project manager: yeah tha tha tha tha tha that 's marketing: and project manager: i think it 's better , marketing: mm . project manager: because of the lcd screen which is really an appeal on the on the on the marketing: yeah . project manager: on the and on the industrial designer: yeah . and if you want to target yeah if we we wish to to sell four millions of this , i think for this audience we need absolutely the lcd screen . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: mm . so , the lcd screen uh attracts , marketing: yeah . project manager: yes . marketing: i think especially if we 're gon na n have an lcd screen on a low range product then that 's good . project manager: because it mm , ma maybe that 's something to consider , yes , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . okay . project manager: so . wh what what marketing: i 'd probably go with three again for that one . user interface: yeah i think it 's uh it has more market actually . industrial designer: or even even one and two . or two . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: no s say t two . user interface: y yeah , you know marketing: okay . so , two , yeah ? user interface: two . project manager: two ? industrial designer: yeah . two yeah . user interface: yeah two yeah . because tomorrow this will be more appealing because you can add lot of sophistication on that . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: because then you you have it uh d you have lot of things which you can include marketing: yeah . yep . and especially i guess 'cause this has the speech recognition as well , user interface: for the people to marketing: and that makes it more appealing , it 's more of a a new fun toy . user interface: we have to practically test it . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: the field test will tell you how good . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: okay , the final point , trends . marketing: and following the trends . user interface: the trends . marketing: so the trends were the fruit and vegetables and the spongy feel . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: so as it is , not really doing either of them . project manager: i think industrial designer: spongy , uh , that means that it goes in in the water . marketing: well , project manager: marketing: the spongy could be part of the the feel of the buttons as well , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: i know some have you tried the mobile phones that have got the kinda spongy buttons and not not exactly spongy but i 'm thinking one of the nokias that 's got like you ca it has n't got individual buttons industrial designer: uh okay . marketing: it 's got just a one bit on it project manager: mm . user interface: yeah i know . marketing: and so you can that feels kinda spongy . industrial designer: but this one includes this feature , right ? spongy buttons . marketing: so it 's sort of , yeah . user interface: yeah . we we we we we yeah , it 's the way they are going to be , actually . marketing: mm . okay . industrial designer: so uh project manager: mm . industrial designer: the maybe in the colour we can make it uh fruit and and veggie . marketing: but that 's if you 're using the covers . project manager: and the then we can al marketing: or is it just one industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yes . we can we can consider uh uh is it possible do you think , to to make a cover for s such a phone ? i mean marketing: well they make it for mobiles , it ca n't be that much more complicated . user interface: but why do you want to cover that actually ? in that uh w in the mod project manager: well just with the with the flexible plastic uh marketing: so you got the option of having different colours or different textures . industrial designer: yeah . this is possible . project manager: i th i th i think user interface: uh uh y are you sure ? yeah i think yeah it should be possible like what we do with the mobile phone , yeah . project manager: o o or just two things which can be put on each other . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah exactly like nokia phones . marketing: mm . project manager: yes , exactly like it . user interface: yep . project manager: uh , so maybe we can but we have to decide it , we can put the the the fancy f look of vegetables for instance , to to these covers marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and s now try to invest in the in in the features . marketing: i think the if we do the cover that 's really going with the company 's philosophy of having the fashion in in electronics , it lets people have the latest fashion project manager: mm . marketing: even next year when fruit and vegetables might be out , you 'll still be able to put a new cover on it and then it 'll still be in fashion . project manager: mm mm mm mm mm . industrial designer: yeah . 'cause sometimes look at this computer , th this laptop , it 's all black , marketing: mm . industrial designer: and uh it 's quite conventional , and sometimes people do n't like too much flashy colours like this one presented here . marketing: mm . mm . industrial designer: so maybe we could do like in the range the set of what we propose a black one , very standard one , that meets the the requirements of th such people that want really standard uh things . marketing: mm . yep . project manager: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . marketing: yep . mm . project manager: mm . mm . marketing: and then you have the option of having the different colours , different covers . project manager: yes . so so so that that would make the trends equal , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so we we we really have do n't have , marketing: mm . there 's n yeah . 'cause that 's the that 's the feature that could be included in either of them . project manager: i mean marketing: although it is more with the spongy buttons on the um on the other one . project manager: yes , indeed . industrial designer: yeah , so a a point better for the for the number two . marketing: okay . so . two and three , or one and two ? project manager: yes . marketing: user interface: yeah , it 's one . project manager: say , say one and two . one and two . industrial designer: marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so le le let 's see . so d marketing: okay . project manager: this one has spongy but buttons ? industrial designer: yeah , the blue one uh spongy . user interface: yeah , it says a project manager: mm , i see , yes okay . good . marketing: okay so the average of that is three six nine divided by five , so five mm nine by five , one point s eight ? project manager: just add it . industrial designer: nine . project manager: you know . three , six , seven . user interface: one point six , one point industrial designer: user interface: one point eight yeah . marketing: this one , eleven thirteen nineteen twenty one , divided by five is four point two user interface: four point uh four point two . marketing: yep . industrial designer: very good . marketing: okay . but we still got a very different price for those two so they 're not really comparable yet anyway . project manager: mm-hmm . we we must try to get them closer . industrial designer: yeah , it 's right , yeah that 's right . marketing: yep . project manager: both in i i user interface: wow . project manager: or we just have to choose . and adapt . marketing: yep . project manager: because , when we choose for this one we have to we have to make it more attractive marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and w when we to d for this one we have to make it more cheap . marketing: well it 's easier to just make that one cheaper by just taking the speech recognition out . project manager: yes , well marketing: that 'll basically take us down to the budget . project manager: but i 'm now did y did you work with the same prices that i have here ? industrial designer: so i i give yeah i just give a call with the manufacturer uh and uh i explained them and they told me this could be possible for sixteen fr euros . project manager: mm . industrial designer: uh unfortunately we did n't see this chip , uh matthew , user interface: yeah . yep . project manager: mm , tha industrial designer: so maybe we have to recap with this one . user interface: maybe we ought to reconsider everything with this , yeah . project manager: well yes , well uh re reconsider it . so let 's let 's try to to model this this phone in this sheet , user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: uh what kind of energy source uh i i we did n't speak about that . it 's a it 's a normal battery , or user interface: yeah , it migh it it 'll need uh more than a conventional one , it wo n't be uh just maybe you might use a a_a_ battery actually . what do you say , mael ? industrial designer: for this one it 's a normal battery . project manager: yes . just so one battery . 'kay . electronics . given speech recognition i think w you should go for the less fancy chip . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: uh sample speaker , yeah . project manager: yeah , yes , or sample sensor , yes . industrial designer: sample , yeah , this one . project manager: yes , this one . okay . case ? um , industrial designer: so user interface: curved . double curved yeah right . project manager: i see i user interface: it 's uh marketing: mm . project manager: double curve . marketing: yeah , it 's gon na be more than just the biggest case , definitely . project manager: mm . industrial designer: so which one are we talking to ? user interface: are you talking about this or that ? industrial designer: well marketing: either of them . project manager: oh yes , we are talking about , but they have the same shape , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: mm . they 're both going to be not basic cases . project manager: but , actually bu industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so th th this would be double curves ? marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: 'kay . uh , plastic would be the material . marketing: yeah . the basic one , yep . industrial designer: is it zero franc ? user interface: a special colour ? project manager: uh special colour , now we leave it to the covers . user interface: uh marketing: so now we 're either going button or lcds , lcd display . project manager: push . mm , yes , but industrial designer: lcd is . it 's okay . just say lcd . marketing: is that price per unit , or for the whole thing ? project manager: yeah th now this is per per unit , this number of components . user interface: ah good . marketing: so it would need twelve buttons . user interface: yeah , we might need a scroll wheel , right , for that ? industrial designer: no but for this one it 's twelve euro . user interface: no , for that one also . industrial designer: there are twelve ? project manager: so , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight , nine , user interface: yeah that 's a scroll . project manager: t yes . twelve i believe . so this comes to eighteen . marketing: mm . and that 's without any special button supplements . user interface: yeah , one scroll wheel you might need . project manager: so marketing: so we 'd have a special colour , special form and special material on all of them . they 're not just standard buttons . user interface: uh project manager: so i think but th do you agree th that thi industrial designer: wait a minute , it 's not it 's not double curved , it 's single curved , right ? because it 's there is no like . marketing: but i thought it would be curved on two project manager: yes i marketing: it 's like it 's curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well , that 's what i thought . project manager: yes i 'm i 'm no i 'm no i 'm not sh sure . industrial designer: well project manager: yes i kno undes i understand what you mean , yes . industrial designer: it 's you know this curve like this so , it 's w there is only is is is there is nothing like y you know in the other stuff there are marketing: you talking about concave curves ? project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: yeah concave . project manager: both . industrial designer: so i think we can put um marketing: you think a single curved ? industrial designer: the single curved in the sixteen . that makes uh seventeen . and what are just the bt buttons , we have twelve buttons , are you sure ? yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: yes . uh marketing: we have more , we 've got those the scroll wheel on the side industrial designer: so marketing: and yeah industrial designer: i had a bad uh bad estimation . user interface: bad estimate , marketing: the sc project manager: w d user interface: right ? project manager: we have we have n't talk about a , but that 's no a is very exp inexpensive i believe marketing: mm . project manager: but it is not in the list . marketing: we 've got a scroll wheel for the volume do n't we , or is it some other thing that 's not on there . project manager: w ho h is this a scroll wheel or is this a a a sort of button which can be pressed on two sides uh so for higher and lower ? industrial designer: no no no . marketing: 'kay we 've only got five minutes left guys so we need to wrap it up pretty fast . industrial designer: yes , a kind of scroll wheel . marketing: so this is even more than the um than the cost you gave , the sixteen euros . project manager: mm . mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay , user interface: industrial designer: so based on that , yeah , um where is the es okay sample speaker user interface: that is the sample sensor and sample speaker . project manager: so um industrial designer: but still , yeah it user interface: we just need that actually . we need one . project manager: we 're we we could go for the for the for the for the for a simple chip , but then we ca n't have the the speech recognition , yes ? yes ? industrial designer: no we can not , yeah . project manager: so so w when we w a industrial designer: so user interface: s project manager: this would this would be cutting the speech recognition . industrial designer: but the um yeah but if you have the near the lcd you can um choose select between um you know like uni universal between audio , tv and v_c_r_ , and this needs a needs a advanced chip . project manager: transti industrial designer: right , matthew ? user interface: oh i i it industrial designer: or regular chip ? user interface: i think it 's going to be y y industrial designer: i think yeah regular , today we you can do that with regular chip . user interface: yeah it 's th with the regular chip , yeah . project manager: say say it 's regular , regular chip , industrial designer: yeah . okay . okay . project manager: and we still on fifteen , user interface: yeah . project manager: so industrial designer: so . and what about the number of buttons buttons uh my matthew ? project manager: yes but that maybe well we can just say user interface: uh industrial designer: project manager: one . industrial designer: when you look at this w , this u uh item , user interface: yeah . project manager: ca l we are just when we just want to uh to cut the number of buttons we have to make seven to to fit in in twelve twelve fifty . industrial designer: but project manager: so is it possible ? marketing: but that 's seven basic buttons right , seven buttons without any adds-on , without special colours or form or material . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: that 'll be then we have uh have to ask the user to press it several times . industrial designer: you can not make a phone to your boss saying twelve fifty is really really low , project manager: user interface: project manager: no no , marketing: well project manager: he he he i i industrial designer: no ? user interface: marketing: so the lcd display is is three francs , sorry three euros , by itself . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh we do n't want to to change that right ? we we really want a lcd user interface: uh project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: other otherwise we w wouldn not get the market . project manager: otherwise y you ha you have a s ve very normal uh thing like this . industrial designer: it 's evident . marketing: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so twelve euro fifty , we got two off of the battery , industrial designer: and i dunno marketing: we ca n't do anything about that , so ten fifty , if we want an lcd dispra display , that 's seven fifty um , so we 've got seven fifty to use for the case and for the buttons . and the chip . project manager: mm . marketing: sorry the chip 's up there already . project manager: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: so we 're gon na have to scale this down to get within budget , there 's no doubt about that . project manager: a industrial designer: so wha what what each of us think about the because it 's measure point the lcd , um do you think it 's important ? user interface: or we could even replace them by buttons actually . industrial designer: because sometimes whe when you watch the tv in fact , you have a big display and maybe you do n't need one more in your hands ? i dunno , i 'm just asking . marketing: mm . project manager: mm user interface: a actually it depends , it depends what kind of functionalities you want to add into it , marketing: yep . user interface: for example if you add two more functionalities then better you add two more buttons , or and you 'll have lcd display which is that is going to bring the cost by two two euros at least . marketing: mm . yeah . i think , unless we can really drive these prices down we need to get rid of the lcd display . user interface: okay so we can get rid of it industrial designer: yeah , it 's true yeah . user interface: and then add a couple of buttons . industrial designer: but uh , do we want that ? on the market point of view , yeah . what do you think uh , lcd is a major feature , or ? project manager: mm . i marketing: for the price , it 's gon na be what we can afford , and it 's looking like we ca n't afford the lcd display , there 's no way we can get it in there . mm . project manager: i think we have to come to a decision now , just i i think we we what we just do i is vote about the uh the lcd uh display marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so industrial designer: you assume , you want a democratic voyt vote , project manager: yes . industrial designer: right ? okay . project manager: yes . yes . one man one vote . industrial designer: okay . project manager: s so who thinks the the lcd disply display should be i should be in it ? marketing: i th i 'd like t it to be in but i ca n't see it happening . i ca n't see it fitting in . project manager: mm . mm-hmm mm-hmm . user interface: i think but industrial designer: we need to be . marketing: bu y you 're a power voter uh veto anyway as project manager . project manager: mm-hmm , i know , but industrial designer: yeah . . user interface: yeah but the only thing is that what is the multiple functionalities you want to include with that . marketing: well we have to make a decision now , that 's it . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah . project manager: so uh uh having an lcd s display is just uh uh have very very limited amount of buttons . is that acceptable ? ca can i have can the functions be implement in an industrial designer: yes . project manager: you 've you you agree . user interface: w i i i just project manager: so hav hav having seven buttons , instead of twelve . user interface: yeah . project manager: so that wou would be cutting cutting suh say about these buttons . industrial designer: because one yeah th show me that uh actually we could in fact we move these three buttons and have three uh possibilities for each of the three here . here one , at the middle , and at the bottom . project manager: mm . marketing: mm . i think then we we 're really losing ease of use . industrial designer: okay , . user interface: that will create another problem . for the people to use it . it 's not going to be easy . doing that . marketing: okay . project manager: mm . so um industrial designer: okay . project manager: i i think we should we should cut the lcd screen . that that 's that 's my opinion . user interface: no , it 's okay , you uh cut the lcd screen project manager: just user interface: and introduce two more buttons . marketing: okay . so lcd 's out , is speech rec out now ? we 've industrial designer: the speech recognition is out . because of the budget , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: uh where , l_c_ marketing: yep . project manager: okay w we now we can just uh marketing: so are we basically back to the original one now , back to the first version ? which turns out to be on budget exactly , pretty much . with these new costings . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yes . marketing: so just look at forget that one and look at that one now . project manager: yes . yes . i th i th i think w we just go for this one industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: and that that now twelve euros is the is is the price , marketing: yep . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . well that 's that 's project manager: my m my supervisor will be glad that it 's fifty cents cheaper than he expected . marketing: yep . industrial designer: actually yeah , marketing: so . industrial designer: we we we will not need the really uh expert designers um because the amount , yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yep . so w we can go back and l talk to the suppliers maybe project manager: okay . marketing: and see if we can drive the prices down to add a few more things in but that 's all we can do with the restrictions we have at the moment . project manager: okay , good . then we the same . thank you . user interface: okay . project manager: that was it . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: thanks . user interface: that 's it . cool . marketing: okay .

the first design obviously met the requirements of the budget so the team focused on the second one to see whether the combination of the two designs could together form an innovative design but was under the budget at the same time . to cut costs , the project manager first suggested using normal chips only in exchange for the speech recognition function . the special color was left to the case and it was designed as curved on the sides and curved on the top and bottom as well . later , the team had argued a lot whether to eliminate the number of buttons or to discard lcd displays . however , if the number of buttons were to be eliminated , it would be far more complicated to use the device , since users must press one button several times to get to the channel . after a vote and discussion about the cost , the team decided to discard both the lcd display and the speech recognition functions since they were really expensive and the later one could not work without the existence of the former one .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

first , the project manager briefly reviewed the last meeting . according to market research , marketing suggested adopting modern appearance , reducing buttons , increasing positioning and voice recognition functions . from the perspective of technical function design , user interface emphasized that the user should be the centre , reduce the buttons , focus on modifying the shape of the remote control , and do not waste the budget to design the universal remote controller . industrial designer had come up with the option of cheap and sustainable batteries , infrared lights and voice recognition technology . industrial designer also offered mouse-like scrolling and clicking functions , as well as specific remote control shapes .

summarize the presentation on market research and adjustments due to new project demands . </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

through market research , marketing believed that the modern appearance of the remote control is important . useless buttons can be combined or multi-functional remote control can be designed . voice recognition function and positioning function are necessary .

what ideas did user interface suggest when discussing market research and related adjustments ? </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

user interface advocated to adjust to meet the needs of users from the perspective of technical function design . it is mainly user-centred , reducing buttons and making it easier to use . in addition , user interface suggested that the general remote controller proposed by marketing will increase the budget and button , so the research should be stopped and focused on the remote control 's appearance design .

what ideas did industrial designer suggest when discussing market research and related adjustments ? </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

industrial designer believed that the basic function of the remote control is to send messages to another system . the remote control needed an energy source to supply power to the integrated circuit , and had a chip and related information to control the infrared lamp . in the design , it can make the battery and infrared lamp cheaper and more sustainable . it can also add the design of speech recognition interface according to the market research provided by marketing .

what views did project manager get from the last meeting review and market research ? </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

from the last meeting , project manager concluded that the team needed to design a modern , interesting , distinctive , sturdy , positioning remote control . in order to be distinctive , the team can adopt a spherical or keyboard shape design . based on the market research , project manager thought that a rechargeable battery or solar cell is necessary , and the setting of the positioner and the reduction of button number is feasible . project manager wanted the remote control to be used only for tv , which can save the budget . for voice recognition , he thought it was unaffordable for young people , so the design was abandoned .

summarize the team 's discussion on the specific shape design of the remote control . </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

the project manager thought that the shape of the remote control can be designed as a bone or cube to reduce the number of buttons , and add the company 's yellow and grey color . marketing believed that anti lost equipment can be designed . since it 's a one-handed project , marketing proposed to design a special version for left-hand users . user interface thought that the sphere is not suitable for one hand use , the rectangle variant can be used . the more important the button is , the bigger it is and the closer it is to the thumb for easy operation .

what detailed suggestions did industrial designer put forward when discussing the specific shape design of remote control ? </s> project manager: oh . user interface: du project manager: okay . thanks for coming to this meeting . marketing: hm . project manager: s how we doing on our remote ? user interface: project manager: we have some we have some ideas and some uh ideas for what people want . user interface: uh we yes s i 've lo marketing: user interface: i 've done the role that i was asked to do anyway . project manager: yeah . user interface: i think . marketing: project manager: alright let 's just go over the agenda real quick for this meeting . see if i ca n't get things uh moving along here a little bit better . um i 'll go over what we went over last time , which should n't take long . then i believe each of you have a presentation . um i 've was sent a a couple more requirements for our remote , what they want . um then we can come to a conclusion on uh what we want the remote to do , um and how it 's going to do it hopefully . and uh then we 'll have the closing . um which we 'll have forty minutes for . uh let 's see , the last meeting we went over um who was responsible for what . i 'm responsible for leading the meetings , keeping the notes , uh and coming up with the final presentation . um corinne is our marketing expert . she 's gon na figure out what what um the consumer wants . um ryan is our user interface designer . and manuel is the industrial designer . so you 're gon na come up with the ideas ryan , and you 're gon na pick 'em apart . user interface: project manager: um we decided our remote , uh we want it to be a universal remote uh that everyone would want . um we want to be modern , um fun , different . uh it needs to be sturdy , um easy to find , so we gon na have that locator function . um and we want to be different . um and then we went over a couple of different ideas . ball-shaped phone . the keyboard shape . um we decided that it should probably be one-handed . something we could use with one hand . um and that was our last meeting . so um why do n't um do each of you have a presentation ? marketing: yep . project manager: okay . i 'll hand it off to you and um does anyone do you wan na go first ? marketing: sure . project manager: so we can maybe see what uh what the people want . industrial designer: marketing: what was it ? function ? industrial designer: eight . f_ eight . marketing: f_ eight ? well . how do i get it user interface: slide show . project manager: to go to the next one ? marketing: oh right right right . project manager: yeah you click on that guy . marketing: that one ? project manager: yeah . marketing: okay . alright . well , this is my report , which is going to be based pretty much on a survey that i was sent . oh gosh , i 've no idea . g user interface: just press the arrow keys i think . usually goes to it . marketing: okay . project manager: marketing: sorry i actually need to see something else on my screen . project manager: marketing: project manager: hit f_ eight again . marketing: yeah . project manager: i think . marketing: and then ? again ? project manager: yeah . you want it to be on both screens , or just just yours ? marketing: no i want something else on mine . is that possible ? project manager: yeah but i think you have to hit escape . and then you can yeah . marketing: okay but now you do n't have that . project manager: oh hit f_ eight again . marketing: sorry guys . project manager: i know . i did the same thing . marketing: project manager: and then it should come up here shortly . 'kay . marketing: so is there no way i can give you the slideshow and project manager: i think oh give us the slideshow and something on your screen ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: mm . marketing: oh well . project manager: i 'm not sure . you could maybe minimise that screen and then have them both up at the same time i think . marketing: yeah . it 's okay . okay . um so first of all , the method that i used was by doing some marketing research , industrial designer: marketing: by um doing research on some interviews that were conducted . and then some internet research . and i was sent a report that was i think there were a hundred remote users that they interviewed . and so i will show you some of the results from that , which i think will be helpful . um okay here are some of the findings . they said that the users dislike the look and feel of their current remote controls . and seventy five percent of the users find their remote controls to be ugly . which is a fairly significant number i would say . and eighty percent of the users would be willing to spend more money if they could get a remote that would look fancy . so i think that earlier we were onto something when we were talking about having it be a modern cool look , i think that 's definitely important . um they say that current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . seventy five percent of users said they zap a lot . and if anyone could clarify what that means ? industrial designer: just jus user interface: is is it j just just marketing: zap , does that just mean like changing the channel ? user interface: just using it industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . um and fifty percent of the users say that they 're only using ten percent of the buttons on their remote control . and there was something else , they kept track of the frequency per hour in using certain buttons . and some of them it looks like barely need to be included at all . of course channel selection is used the most frequently . and then teletext was the next . volume and then power . and then audio settings and screen settings and channel settings were practically never used . so i think we could definitely eliminate or somehow combine a lot of the functions into one button . um the biggest user frustrations , as we said fifty percent of people find that their remotes are lost somewhere , and so i think a tracking device of some sort would be a good idea . they said it take thirty four percent said it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . and twenty six percent said that the controls are bad for r_s_i_ . user interface: a repetitive strain injury . marketing: what is it ? user interface: just repetitive strain injury . i think . that 's what i guess . marketing: okay . okay . and so bas okay . um as far as speech recognition goes , um the younger group looks like they 're all for it . from the fifteen to twenty five age group over ninety percent said they would pay more . and it kind of just went down incrementally . the groups at the older they get it looks like the less willing they are to pay , so maybe we could discuss this and think and decide if we think it 's worth investing in this . at least if we 're targeting the younger groups . and so in conclusion . some things that i drew from this are that i think we were correct . we definitely need to focus on a new modern appearance , since so many people seem to be concerned about the ugliness of their remote control . um a multifunctional remote could be a good thing to explore . so you only have one rather than five different remotes sitting all over your room . uh we need to simplify the remote and reduce the number of buttons , get rid of the ones that do n't seem to be serving much purpose . and then lastly i thought that maybe we could discuss the idea of speech recognition . and that 's it . project manager: 'kay . very nice . now we actually have some ideas of what what people want , what we should focus on . uh marketing: project manager: wait can i look at that real quick ? . marketing: oh yeah . sorry did you guys get time to write everything that you needed ? user interface: yeah . marketing: 'kay . user interface: having just listened to what corinne just said , i 'll draw on some of the things as well . some things that sort of relevant to what i wan na say . 'kay so i 'm just gon na yeah approach the technical functions design . um the method i used was to explore the uh technical functions of a remote control . marketing: user interface: and t s simplest approach that i came to is is to change , programme and operate an electronic device remotely . i mean that 's an obvious thing to say , but it 's not attached to the device that you want to control . um i had some things sent to me . not very much . to look at similar devices . um defined in some them . and then the personal preferences that i will suggest . um we discussed a universal one . um like it 's just been brought up again then . but i think a universal remote control is actually quite a difficult object to design , and po possibly within maybe the budget that we do it , um because you 'd need to know all the spef specifications of a all the like electronic companies . i 'm not sure have you ever come across a universal remote control yourself , but you have to i they 're a nightmare to use . you have to set them , reset them to everything . um and that would only add buttons . whereas i think the aim is to take away buttons . so i think it 'd be better maybe to concentrate on maybe just a universal one for tvs . um or maybe just one that you could we could design and then different people , manufacturers could use it to set to their specifications , if if the aim is to get something that 's unique in design . um okay here here 's just two pictures of remote controls . they 're just simple tv remote controls . but one is uh user-centred . that is the one on the left . and you can straight away see there 's less buttons . and the other one is engineer-centred where that 's more uh specified for the sort of the elaborate piece of equipment it 's trying to control um which appeals more to the product that we want , and on what the have said and the market research and stuff probably looking at something that should be user-centred . fewer buttons , simpler to use , and if ten percent um is hidden away if ten percent is what 's used , maybe the other fifty percent , the buttons that are used very rarely like programming , they could be hidden maybe under some remote controls you might have come across have maybe a little flip thi thing where they 're hidden away . and the main buttons are the ones you or the ones you come across . um and finally , um uh sort i 've sort of covered that , our product i think should be user interface orientated . um like i said to concentrate on tv remote control , a universal remote might be too complex . um and as what it , the major findings market researchers have said , it 's the image and the appearance that people di dislike . so that we should concentrate on something that would set a trend . and that 's it . industrial designer: cable there . thank you . project manager: what was your last conclusion on that one ? focus on uh the i user interface: on something on the image of it . project manager: the image of it . user interface: uh the f the actual design . project manager: 'kay . good . good . industrial designer: okay . gon na talk to you about the working design of the interiors basically which is what dictates the design the both the interface basically and the outer appearance because this is all the stuff that needs to go in there . right . so unfortunately the people who were supposed to do this little presentation for me obviously were too drunk to actually accomplish it , marketing: project manager: industrial designer: so um i 'm going to do a lot of the stuff on the board . um just this is the basic basic premise of a remote control . um the basic function is to send messages to another system . okay so much is clear . an energy source feeds an integrated circuit , like a chip , that can compose messages . often in the form of infrared bits . this is the most mostly used . um there 's uh also some sound systems but infrared is the better or the more more used system . um parts are cheaper as well . a user interface controls the chip and accordingly the messages . this is where my people screwed up basically . marketing: industrial designer: so i 'm going to explain that on the board rather . um what we have is different components that obviously need to go in there . we 'll start with an energy source . right . um which is usually a battery right ? since it 's not feasible to add a cable to that . this energy source of course is connected to the the user interface itself . uh which can be buttons , whatever , which in fact controls a chip . right ? this is the user interface and there we have the chip . um the way this goes normally is that this chip then controls an infrared lamp . that sends out the signal . of course the signal differs accordingly . um depending on what the chip tells the infrared lan lamp . and of course that 's controlled , the chip itself is controlled by the user interface . the way you normally normally do it is that you add a little device such as a lamp to the whole thing as well , so that you know that it 's working basically . you press something , you get a response . which is also comparatively um important on one of those devices . now this , what we 're talking about here , or what i think should be discussed are these two components mostly . the the uh energy source for one thing can be altered . what we probably can not alter is of course the infrared , the sending device basically , the infrared lamp . we can not change the chip which controls the infrared lamp . right ? these two are components that we have to use , and these are dictated by the whole function of the whole thing . um the lamp can be put onto the desi the device . it c it does n't have to be there . this can be discussed as well . the user interface . that 's something we can also discuss . um as we 've heard uh speech recognition is the hype obviously in the moment . speech recognition um interface , we do n't know that . or if we just do the usual button thing . or we have a touch pad or something like that that 's something we can discuss . and of course the energy source . batteries . solar cells . who knows ? of course it 's always a question whether these these components are in fact available cheap enough , developed enough . but that 's like i s i suppose rather up to marketing , and not to project manager: so we could the the industrial designer: to the industrial design department . project manager: the more complex we make it of course , the more expensive industrial designer: expensive it 's gon na be get uh . yeah . project manager: but people have said that they would well younger generations of people have said that they would pay more for a speech recognition remote . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so possibly it might be worth the investment . industrial designer: right . user interface: i think speech recognition was uh one of those things where um they have to be really good for them to work . 'cause sometimes you find yourself just saying things over and o if it 's on your phone . marketing: yeah . project manager: i agree . well user interface: and you need to sort of take into light languages and then different dialects i suppose as well . project manager: i myself i find , when you , h when there 's something like spee speech recognition . like uh you call on the phone and you try to change your telephone or power or something . sometimes they have a a speech recognition on the other end , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you say one for this , and you find yours , like you said , saying the same thing over and over and over . i find myself , especially if i 'm in a crowd of people , looking really silly . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: so maybe if you 're sitting on your couch with a bunch of people then you know , you user interface: and wou i do n't know if would would you want to keep saying stuff if you were watching stuff . if you were watching something would you sort of be wanting project manager: volume up . volume down . change the channel , you know channel up , channel down ? user interface: yeah . project manager: i i do n't know . marketing: another thing about these figures is ninety one percent of the youngest age groups said they 'd do it , but probably a lot of them that 's actually their parents money . like i do n't know if they would actually go out and purchase this themselves , a fifteen year old you know . user interface: i think as well it 'd be j the gimmick factor for the younger people . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: but practically i do n't think it 's project manager: it 's a , it 's a gimmick factor that they like at first , and user interface: yeah . it 'll wear off . marketing: gets old yeah . project manager: okay . um let 's see here . user interface: do you wan na put your cord back in ? project manager: yeah i guess so . industrial designer: oh right . project manager: trade you . industrial designer: go . project manager: now i was sent a couple of things to modify our uh new requirements . um the remote 's only gon na be for the television , which is good because we already decided y your your research showed that uh not only is a universal remote more complicated , it 's more cost , more costly . and your re uh research showed that you know most of the people do n't even use it . i think uh you said fifty percent of the people only use half the or ten percent of the buttons . marketing: mm . project manager: so if we remove the universal remote then that solves that problem . um no teletext . um so we do n't have to worry about that . um but we do have to use the the company wants us to incorporate the corporate colour and our slogan , which is we put the fashion in electronics . and our corporate colours are grey and yellow . and we could probably get away with black too but so those are the three um the three new requirements that that i was told we need to use . um from all all three of your uh presentations , i think that we were on the right track a lot in our last meeting . we want something that looks good . um we want something that 's simple . we want something that you can find easily . um and the speech recognition i i guess is kind of uh give or take . it 's gon na cost more . s the young the younger people say that they like it . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: but um it 's probably , i would say , probably not worth the investment at this point in time . so maybe we should just do away with speech recognition . um and that way we can focus on our form . user interface: i did have have a thought about the sort of the tracking thing . is that if it came with maybe a holder or holster , whatever you wan na call it . um that you you should put it back in . your remote . but if you do n't put it back in , you press something like a little button on that , and that just sort of sends out a beep to find where it is or something . just by infrared . that should n't be too complex i would 've thought . project manager: that 'd be , that 'd be good if we were going with our our ball . user interface: yeah it would be quite good . project manager: or or with you know i guess with any form that that would be good . user interface: the ball could sit on a marketing: mm . project manager: you know that could be the charger . for you know user interface: yeah . project manager: we could use rechargeable batteries in the remote . and that would be or solar . or you know however , however you wanted to go about it , the holder could also be the charging unit . um user interface: yeah . project manager: with the locator button . um and if it were the ball you 'd no longer have to have a flat space on it . user interface: yeah . project manager: um like industrial designer: well project manager: if industrial designer: you still do . project manager: we still have the how to hold on to it industrial designer: you s you still w yeah . you put it on t on the couch table . project manager: it 's gon na roll away . industrial designer: while you 're watching , marketing: rolls away industrial designer: it 's gon na roll off . so marketing: yeah . industrial designer: that 's not an issue really . project manager: um so i guess after the meeting we 'll have some questionnaires . and uh and some summaries for for what 's going on . um then we 'll take lunch . then we can come back and uh work on our individual work . um i 'll do the minutes . uh let 's see . it looks like you 're already on your way for uh working with the components . um chips , the what chips we need industrial designer: . project manager: and what uh you know how to power it and whatnot . user interface concept , we want it to be something simple . user interface: yeah . project manager: um minimal number of buttons . i guess our , i guess our main um main thing that we should focus on until then is probably deciding on a certain look , you know . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right . that 's project manager: did you have time earlier to to work on that . did you guys feel you have enough time in between our meetings to get everything done that you need to get done ? marketing: not really . user interface: i 'll yeah i 'll have a look , try look at the actual appearance in the next break . project manager: 'kay . user interface: i th i i do still think it needs to be something that is ultimately one-handed . the ball is probably not a good idea . marketing: mm . user interface: and even something that 's held like that might be difficult . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so that i think it still has to be a variation . on maybe a a rect on a rectangle but maybe not necessarily as boring , as plain as a rectangle . marketing: mm . project manager: um shall we maybe shoot for a a specific uh target group ? that way we could l i mean if it were , if we were shooting for young guys then it 's um a certain look to the remote . or girls or older people ? um would that you think that would help us find um a specific form ? that we would would wan na pick out ? user interface: d i do n't know if that might cope with like the trend-watching . i find anything more on that . marketing: mm . yeah not yet but maybe by the next meeting we 'll have some info on that . project manager: 'kay . so um we know that the remote 's gon na have to be we 'll just say we 've got a colour scheme for it . um yellow and user interface: yeah . project manager: you know yellow it 's nice and bright , with the buttons being grey or black . industrial designer: mm . project manager: and our slogan pasted somewhere on it , on the the bottom marketing: project manager: or the user interface: bottom perhaps project manager: you know . um user interface: yeah . project manager: maybe we could sketch a so basically all of our remotes all of our typical remotes now are just kind of a rectangular sort . you know . um maybe we could flare it or something . you know . so it 's more of course this will look like a bone then . marketing: industrial designer: project manager: go ahead and erase this . um hope everyone memorised that uh user interface: you i mean it might be to look at sort of the the shape and trend of like things like mobile phones , and the shapes that the they 've been going . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: mm . user interface: they 've gone from big brick block things , which is a remote control is , to sort of slinky small things . project manager: yeah everybody 's got a mobile phone right ? except for me now . uh user interface: marketing: project manager: but they are all , industrial designer: project manager: you know , mobile phones um they 've kind of taken a turn to where they 're really small . um which may defeat our purpose for being able to locate our remote all the time . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . project manager: but then again you do n't want you know like the first mobile phone that was this big marketing: project manager: and you had a handbag to carry it around in . um user interface: project manager: so we 've got basically what remotes look like now is kind of what we 're what we 're stuck with . um maybe we could go with a square or something . um industrial designer: hm . project manager: um you know with minimal number of buttons . i guess you 've got you know one through nine . for typing in your channels . uh you 've got volume , up and down . channel up and down . marketing: power . project manager: power . usually at the top . um a mute . industrial designer: that 's the classical design . project manager: that 's that 's pretty much all you need i think . um a menu button , maybe . industrial designer: right . project manager: so you know . if you , if we want the remote to do other things like um or i guess the tv to be able to change the tint and the colour and you know all those kind of things that are built into tvs , we just have that under one standard menu button where you go in , press the menu button , scroll up and down to select it . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um industrial designer: talking of which maybe a scrolling function is not not too bad . project manager: 'kay so industrial designer: it 's project manager: um industrial designer: talk about maybe f look at that from the side , there maybe . marketing: industrial designer: which is technically the easiest option . would probably be like a scrolling , little scrolling wheel like this . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . yeah . so . project manager: like a wheel on your mouse . industrial designer: yeah , sort of like that . project manager: sort of . industrial designer: you can even if we 're coming from mice , we can even add a click function , where you , in order to verify the information you just press it down . right . project manager: 's a good idea . industrial designer: also when it comes to the ergonomics of the whole thing , if you wan na make it square for the looks of it , then maybe to make it more comfortable to hold the whole thing , you add a little bulge down here . just which maybe from an engineering point this could be holding the the batteries and so on . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: i know . you know what i 'm getting at here , project manager: look g yeah . looks good . industrial designer: fel look at it from the side . it 's like that . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: right . uh then you hold it in your hand like this . and maybe you bring the buttons nearer to the or the imp more important buttons nearer to the to the side . user interface: yes project manager: to the thumb . yeah . industrial designer: right . mm . user interface: to the thumb yeah . maybe the buttons could like uh decrease in s the bigger ones you know they could actually be bigger in size than the ones that are less important , the smaller here . industrial designer: right . you can also have it , maybe , talking about mobile phones again , sliding open . with the lesser used functions on this part , user interface: yeah . behind . industrial designer: and then it slides into that part . and out . user interface: definitely . just like o on a sort of side view . something that you know it would sort of fit in the hand better . so you know you just sort of have your hand industrial designer: mm well i was just thinking , this this of course causes user interface: yeah . right on the and your thumb would be up here type thing . industrial designer: causes a problem um for left or right-handed people actually . so . user interface: yeah that 's also true . instantly sort of always going for the right-handed person . industrial designer: right . user interface: but i mean the older so project manager: yeah is everyone who in here 's right-handed , left-handed ? you guys all right-handed ? marketing: right . industrial designer: right . user interface: right-handed , project manager: yeah . so user interface: yeah . project manager: i 'm left-handed but i , so i can say that most things are designed for right-handed people . industrial designer: that 's right . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: like the written language . or english . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: maybe you could buy like a special left-handed version of the remote . special order . project manager: maybe . ow . i would say i mean it should be probably designed for a right-handed p person . marketing: yeah . project manager: um but that 's that 's good . that 's w i think we 've got a kind of a good plan there . um at least for what buttons we 're gon na use . um so we 've got uh i like the scroll , the scroll action and the . user interface: i mean i 'm just just thinking maybe if it was um circular um with the sort of that sort of the sort of early idea we had , with the way that was more like that , whereas this is just a one-handed thing that you sort of almost wrap round the thumb . so you 'd have your , you 'd put your hand into there with the thumb there . and then your thumb would do you 'd have all the buttons sort of round here . and that i think could work . on any hand . if you just had it like wrapped round there . left or right . project manager: yeah . kinda like holding a marketing: mm . industrial designer: right . that minimises it size-wise as well . user interface: minimise its size . it could be you know really quite small . industrial designer: mm . then there 's maybe another point of making it a two-in-one kind of thing . if we have a smaller a smaller device that actually fits into the big one . you give it the full functions in here , and just a couple of functions in there . like your zap zapping device is just u channels up-down , uh volume , and on-off . user interface: yeah . marketing: hmm . user interface: zapping functions . industrial designer: that 's it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: maybe . marketing: could be good . project manager: so two remotes in one . but then would be easier to lose one or the other . industrial designer: that 's right . means the big one has to be sufficiently big . and perhaps heavy , so you ca n't move it around . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: it actually is your coffee table . industrial designer: make it a piece of furniture . user interface: industrial designer: yes . yes , there you go . user interface: industrial designer: or a statue or something . project manager: okay . well we need to finish up here . um so for the next so for the next um before the next meeting w uh sh shall we work on you 're watching trends to see what what kind of new information we 've got going on . um marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: yep . project manager: manuel you 're going to work on the components for for what we 're gon na use . industrial designer: right . project manager: let 's go with our our uh rounded kind of fit in your hand let 's explore uh the the uh possibility of having the two-piece . so one for the the quick zapping um and possibly one you know with just that rounded part that fits into your hand . um industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: and ryan you work on um how how well they 'll work with the us with the user . so both of those concepts . user interface: how well it 'll work yeah . project manager: and uh okay i think we made some good progress here . industrial designer: alright . user interface: project manager: see you in i dunno . i gu i guess we 'll take lunch in about uh half an hour . or i guess we 'll be taking lunch shortly and then then in about half an hour after that we 'll probably have another meeting . marketing: industrial designer: alright . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay .

industrial designer proposed to design mouse-like click function and the scrolling function which is the simplest in technology . in addition , some small protuberances can be designed under the remote control , which is more convenient for users from the perspective of ergonomics , and the battery can be installed from the engineering point of view . he also proposed a two in one remote control . the small remote control has simple basic functions and is easy to carry . the large remote control is not easy to lose when it is fixed on furniture such as a sofa or table .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

project manager started introducing meeting purposes on the functional design of the remote control . group mates have agreed to name the project as 'mando ' . next , marketing presented user requirements and market reports on current remote improvements . user interface presented the current trend on remote controls . user interface compared scroll wheel and lcd screen . industrial interface gave a presentation on the working design of different interfaces . lastly , project manager summarized the whole project meeting discussion .

summarize the group discussion about the functional design . </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

the group agreed that the remote should be fancy and easy to be hand-held . it should not be too small or too big in good shape . they agreed to bring new technologies and push toward the internet for young peoples . so they would use the wheel to navigate . also regarding the budget , they had a new target price but it would be impossible to have lcd and automatic speech recognition technologies implementation .

what did group mates think of a universal design suggested by industrial designer ? </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

industrial designer thought a universal shape design should be good for both the hands . user interface suggested that they could still design to extend past the hand and have something like finger grips on the remote compared to the traditional ones . marketing supplemented that it should not be symmetrical . and project manager agreed on it .

what did project manager think of the incorporation of an lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control ? </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

marketing mentioned that most of the young people to thirty years old were interested in this kind of technology . however , project manager updated him and group mates that head offices would like to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . therefore , project manager suggested the group focusing more on the internet aspects because the teletext was outdated and it should be clear that the corporate image should be clearly identified in the product .

what 's user interface 's opinions toward marketing when discussing the transition to new remote control ? </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

when user interface mentioned about they need to keep the buttons down to a minimum , marketing thought the transition to this new remote control should n't be very abrupt because if people would think it 's very difficult to learn a remote control without numbers . user interface responded that it would depend on how they advertise it to navigate to a program without the numbers .

what did project manager think of the scroll wheel suggested by user interface ? </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

user interface suggested that the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen for changing channel numbers easily . and it would be fairly cheap to implement compared to an lcd screen . project manager mentioned that , however , they had seen that there was a new way of interacting that used wheels to navigate . so project manager suggested that regarding the cost budget they had a target price , their design could stick to new technologies that bring to young people .

summarize the discussion about speech recognition technology . </s> project manager: okay everybody is ready ? good morning again . so , today we are going to have a f second meeting . oh michael , hi . user interface: yep . project manager: you 're late . you have a good reason for that ? user interface: yes . industrial designer: project manager: very good . okay , let 's have a look to the agenda today . so , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . um so first before starting i w just going to uh to go quickly to through the minutes of previous meeting . so uh basically we we are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but i have new um new i inputs for about that topics . i goin i 'm going to share with you . and uh basically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um industrial designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . you showed us industrial designer: yep . project manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ? industrial designer: yeah . yep . project manager: the u_i_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our marketing expert should deliver some specs . user interface: mm . project manager: alright so so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . but first i would like quickly to uh to decide of to give a name to the project . so , i just put d quickly remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should we could discuss quickly . any ideas ? user interface: uh the powerstick . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: powerstick , yeah . user interface: project manager: what else ? what else ? marketing: uh . user interface: maybe a spanish name would work well . marketing: mm i was thinking of the user interface: especially if we 're selling into the u_s_ market becasue there 's a lot of spanish speakers there . maybe something that sounds cool in english but sounds funny in spanish . marketing: mando . user interface: mando . project manager: mango ? mango ? user interface: what is that ? marketing: mando . project manager: mando . m_a_ ? m_a_ ? marketing: a * _n_ yeah d_o . project manager: m_ d_o_ . mm , okay . marketing: it does n't it does n't sound cool for me , project manager: what does it mean ? oh . marketing: but maybe for a spanish for i for user interface: what does it mean in spanish ? marketing: control . user interface: control . project manager: hmm . nice . user interface: okay . 'cause it also like in english it sounds like you know the man 's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remote marketing: but mm , yeah . user interface: so it might marketing: mando sounds latino . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: the mando . project manager: so , let 's go for mando ? yeah ? no objection ? industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: yeah that 's . project manager: great . so user interface: and we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the o_ as like project manager: okay , i think this is user interface: although you do n't wan na cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though , project manager: okay . user interface: do you ? so industrial designer: yeah they are the most tv watcher . so we should be careful . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i think this is more a question of of user interface: marketing . marketing: but yeah project manager: i i think this is more a question of of look and feel . marketing: it uh project manager: something that should be addressed later we should we should go to other for the other topics . marketing: yeah because if the product will be international user interface: well that 's the thing . we need to know who we 're selling it to before we can really decide on a project manager: yeah okay , so let 's stick f to man mando for the name user interface: um . project manager: and we 'll see for the for the look and feel later . so let 's go for the three presentations right now . so , who want to start ? user interface: project manager: so maybe we could start with the market , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe i should uh start . yeah . mm . okay . project manager: okay so i have your slides somewhere ? marketing: yeah . should be in participant four . project manager: participant four . this one ? marketing: yeah , yeah . uh . project manager: s that 's coming . uh user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . great . industrial designer: yep . marketing: okay so yeah i will i will give a brief outline about what i what i prepared for this meeting . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: for the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . i prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements we could do to the current remote controls . and also i di i did a study with for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been have remained the same for the last five , ten years . there is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and project manager: okay . sh next slide ? marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: well more most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . so and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in a fancier remote control , which is which is good and it 's interesting point . also the people are worried about about the r * _s_i_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . so s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . they are also they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so i think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to any beep any alarm or something incorporated to with the remote control every time it it get lost . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and also i found that young people the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating new technologies in the in the remote control . project manager: okay . marketing: so in my opinion the mando this mando should n't be very small because the smaller it is , the more like the the liklier it is to get lost . liklier or more likely ? user interface: more likely . marketing: likely . okay . uh people also complain because they they they all have the same size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but they they should n't they should n't have the same importance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . also the z the design should fit the hand shape . so it may be interesting to to think in a in both prototypes , for right and left handed people . user interface: well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . so unless you 're kind of targeting single people you know you 're gon na maybe marketing: yeah . user interface: cut out some a lot of your market . marketing: i dunno i th anyway i think it could be int interesting to to release some a a small fraction of of this remote controls . industrial designer: well maybe it could be a universal design . marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: a universal design , which is which is good for both the hands . user interface: still shaped for yeah for your hand but not for a particular hand , right ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah ? that 's right , whether it 's left hand or right hand , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: but but do n't you think that the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ? marketing: sorry ? industrial designer: the first and the third point , they are clashing . user interface: well it can still be a , you can still extend past the hand . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: uh . marketing: like uh industrial designer: so fitting the hand does n't mean much then . user interface: well it means like , this remote here is kind of is very thin and long so instead of having you know you might have it kind of a bit bigger industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah , like user interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . project manager: industrial designer: so it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ? user interface: industrial designer: little sleek , longer ? user interface: industrial designer: and it should fit the hand . marketing: no no i was thinking of so like something project manager: something with the shape of the palm ? industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . user interface: some finger grips maybe . marketing: yeah . user interface: you could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything , project manager: on the sides . marketing: yeah yeah . it sh it should n't it should n't be symmetric symmetrical . user interface: but industrial designer: mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm . marketing: not anymore . that 's what yeah . project manager: and then finally marketing: and finally , the incorporation of a lcd or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but i do n't know if the budget would be large enough . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . first i 'm just wondering about the lcd stuff because uh because marketing: but most of yeah most of the young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology . project manager: yeah , so maybe it 's a good time for me to uh to bring you to some new uh new informations . we had the new requirements from the so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted so they want to um they would like to be restricted to tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , i dunno if you had this information already . no , user interface: no . project manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to tv only because of time limitations . um they want also uh marketing: actually this marketing report is restricted to tv remote controls . project manager: excellent . so we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well well te teletext is outdated now and uh finally , it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . so user interface: i was still uh i was still working on this uh twenty five euro price point because i think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if if we 're maybe i can get to this in my presentation though , project manager: yeah yeah . sure sure . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: so maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now . user interface: yep . okay . project manager: okay so let 's keep in mind about tha that that this last point about lcd and speech uh reco user interface: yeah . i think even even if it was within budget do a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think if you 're watching tv you 're gon na have a lot of this uh background noise from the tv which might interfere with the project manager: sorry , what is your ? user interface: uh participant three . you might have some background noise from the tv which will make the speech recognition much uh harder , so . marketing: yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so yeah yeah . user interface: oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the tv the tv sound turns off . marketing: yeah uh channel fifty . industrial designer: no it could be command control kind of thing . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: it requir recognises particular sequence and then it gets activated . means you say you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: because this kind of thing means speech is there from the tv also . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so there should be something command controlled , you start and then you stop . user interface: mm . yeah . industrial designer: it 's like v_i_ editor , you are having two modes similarly . user interface: industrial designer: otherwise it 's just lying idle . project manager: okay michael . user interface: okay , so , could i describe the mouse maybe be easier to project manager: sorry ? user interface: could i use the mouse , or project manager: um yeah . user interface: mm . thanks . okay . project manager: the wheel does n't work . user interface: great . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: okay so um while uh researching this this topic i first of all just thought of a couple of things that i would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they 're actually available in any current remotes , and then also searched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . so um there 's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these days and and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it 's not really it 's by no means uh mm you know on it 's own in being so expensive . there are a lot of expensive remote controls out there . project manager: looks like a p_d_a_ ? user interface: so yeah it doe it 's well basically all the functions uh are controlled through through the lcd screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , i know we 're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these lcd screens which kind of helps when you 're using multiple uh devices i suppose because you can have multiple kind of functions d different functions on the screen at different times . but um the thing that i find most interesting about this remote control , and it 's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has a scroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which i think is it 's a really kind of important design aspect um is it 's 'cause the thing is what a what we the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . and obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel . industrial designer: change the channels . user interface: now um industrial designer: yeah . user interface: uh the i think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing the channel . 'cause i know when i um when i use the remote to change the channel i very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . i usually use the up and down industrial designer: mmm-hmm mm-hmm . yeah yeah . user interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that 's just uh it 's annoying . so i think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an lcd screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about the internet uh capability . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: one possibility , if we now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff ca n't be done for twenty five eu uh euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the lcd screen so that instead of actually saying i want to i want to go to channel thirty seven because i know this programme 's on , you know , often you do n't know what ch what channel it 's on , or you do n't know what 's on . if you have a list of of programs on your lcd screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . so if you think about it 's kind of like a you know in mobile phones now you do n't use you do n't remember people 's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it . project manager: user interface: so this would be pretty kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . so , i mean there are there are uh cheaper this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it 's it 's it 's very simple , there 's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . so this is something else we might wan na consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on epinions . it it 's really uh maybe worth thinking about limiting the number of buttons as much as as possible um because really i think people want to be able to find the button they 're looking for without even looking at the remote control . and was saying before about having different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but i think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . so if you have too many buttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want . industrial designer: but there is one problem then the user has to understand each of that functionality . user interface: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah well we w industrial designer: because the same button is doing too many things . user interface: yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in that we 're only doing uh a television remote control . um i think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , the number buttons for instance . um industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: i i would if i had my perfect remote control , i 'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they 're just in the way . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: they do n't really do anything . maybe you know i although i do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can break off or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think definitely you need to to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . um marketing: h i think i think that the tr the transition to this to this new remote control should n't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it 's very difficult to learn very difficult to very different build very different to the traditional industrial designer: it does sampling out of the . project manager: user interface: well i guess that depends on how you market it . if you if you have the right advertisement showing how how how easy it is and how you can , you know , navigate to a program without the numbers , then people might say that looks pretty easy . marketing: if y project manager: okay , can you continue , please mi ? user interface: so , but marketing: user interface: yep . um okay , so , i think um one of the really kind of useful things you can do with with internet connectivity would be to have this a programme driven interface rather than the channel number . so if we can have a higher priced uh remote control i think that would really be worth uh something that would be worth implementing . um mm there 's the lcd screen , um which maybe maybe is too expensive , um but i think also at the scroll wheel , i have n't mentioned it here , the scroll wheel could be used without an lcd screen , just for changing channel numbers easily . i think even that , project manager: user interface: i mean , that would be a fairly cheap thing , compared to an lcd screen , to implement , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: um but i think that would be quite useful as well . and the other thing , you say we need to we need to keep it just television , but i think one maybe one option , since this is supposed to be a kind of a fashionable device , is you know there 's a certain kind of cool or wow factor that you can kind of you can have with technology , and maybe we wan na make it something that 's extensible to do other tasks . say you have like um a little another little kind of base unit that can also receive signals as well as the television where you can , say uh , change the lighting in the room . you know that would be something maybe you could sell as an extra , so that it does n't have to be part of the initial development , but , you know , later on you could you can you know you also , selling the potential of the device . then you say potentially you can then do other cool stuff like change the lights , i dunno , close the windows , whatever , turn the heating on , and um , i think that 's something we may need to have as as at least as an optional extra to to kinda make our product cool , since we say we 're putting the fashion in electronics . project manager: okay . okay . okay , thanks . you want to go ? industrial designer: yep . so yeah . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so most of the things which we are discussing about is speech recognition uh , that means on my own i project manager: this one ? industrial designer: yeah , it should be . project manager: great . no , not that one . you are two . industrial designer: two . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay so the working design is uh user i interface could be of two types , one is the usual press buttons which are there so that the user feels that he is knoing doing some he is knowing about that technology . so he is pretty comfortable if he wants to get this , and on top of that there there could be a speech recognition technology also being sitting on the on the remote . so the old kind of users who do n't want to have any changes , it can it can be useful for them , and the new users , as uh our marketing expert was saying , they can use the new gizmo which is speech recognition kind of thing . project manager: okay , sorry to interrupt you , but we have seen before that there is a new way of interacting that use wheel . industrial designer: that 's right . so anyway , that did n't come into my mind , project manager: okay . industrial designer: so th that is a possibility . these could be other kind of interfaces . project manager: industrial designer: means we can have , depending on the cost , how much we can afford , we can have different kind of interfaces . so spe buttons are something which is very everybody is familiar with . so if you go to the market and you say that buttons are there the people know what it is , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and on top of that if we are having extra functionality people are willing to shell that twenty-five euros money which we are thinking . otherwise we are just like others in the market . so anyway that is the first , user interface could be of more than one type , and uh yeah that means we can do the on-line changes which which can not be done now actually . so apart from the speech , we can have the scroll kind of thing with the buttons . now for buttons , normal requirements like bit coding and all those things are required . and for voice , limited vocabulary automatic speech recognition system is required and we require a microphone also to be sitting there on the remote . project manager: yeah . that increases the the cost also . industrial designer: uh that 's right . but uh means we have to see how much what kind of microphones and stuff like that . project manager: do you think that performance of such systems are enough to to target well of such technologies is enough ? industrial designer: uh yes , if it is limited vocabulary usually it 's enough . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah we we can uh target , means we can target ninety five percent accuracy or somewhere ninety seven perc project manager: well wh uh i imagine also that the microphone will be an ambiance um a um an ambience microphones user interface: hmm . project manager: because you are not going to speak into into th into the remote control . industrial designer: that 's right . no it it could be little d yeah it could be project manager: so it could be s a few centimetres . user interface: well one one other thing that that speech recognition could really blow out the price for is uh when you want to sell into other markets , though , industrial designer: that 's right . that 's right . user interface: because , i 'm not sure exactly where we 're gon na sell this , but i presume it 's not gon na just be english speaking countries . project manager: yeah . user interface: so then you have to s you know , you have to train models for industrial designer: mm-hmm mm-hmm . uh it 's more like , means there are different speech technologies which are existing so d_t_w_ could be kind of which is the easiest . so you have to store some templates on the on the on the chip itself , and it 's just dynamic time warping where you try to find out what it is , instead of having a model which has to be trained and being a micro-controller . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . okay we shou we should discuss this la later after after after this this uh slide . industrial designer: yeah , that 's right . yeah . project manager: this is a this is a this is a a very important uh issue in discussion . industrial designer: so we can that 's right . yep . project manager: okay , next . uh that finished ? industrial designer: yep . project manager: no ? industrial designer: no no . components . project manager: components ? industrial designer: yeah . so , will you go to the next slide ? project manager: yes sure . user interface: industrial designer: yeah so this is the design which we are thinking so . we are having a power button and the switch , which is not much , user interface: industrial designer: and then we are having the which is to indicate whether the power is on or not . and then there are two kind of things which can be so one is the button interface which has not been shown because because of lack of time . user interface: industrial designer: so we could not put that . so now where the a_s_r_ decoder is sitting , similarly there are different kind of interfaces which could be there . so there is a_s_r_ decoder which could be there , and then there could be another scroll button scroll scroller , and then there could be buttons , and all of them they will just do the decoding and put it in the math put it in the proper message format . and then there is there is the chip which is sitting , the green one , and it converts it into bit codes , and that bit codes are sent by the infrared device to the receiver . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so this is the easiest design the there could be . so th an a_s_r_ decoder we can have things in . to have different technologies . so this was the my personal preference was that we can have a_s_r_ sitting there on the remote control . project manager: user interface: you know i guess you could actually train the remote control as you 're using it by saying you know turn volume up , and you press the uh press the button industrial designer: yeah . user interface: like uh s people teach sign language to kids f well , by speaking and doing industrial designer: yeah but uh as soon as you try to put the microchip kind of thing or something the price will go up . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so these are the slight problems . project manager: so your your opinion is that we should go for special condition technologies ? industrial designer: because yeah the reason is that if we go into the market means though i do n't have much idea , but as he the uh marketing expert presentation was marketing: i 'm sure if you can sell a a speech recognition remote control for twenty five euros everyo everyone will s will buy it . user interface: actually i 'm not so sure industrial designer: so if we go with just the user interface: because i 'm the marketing: i 'm sure . user interface: you know if i was using a remote control to , say , turn the volume up because i ca n't hear it very well , i do n't really want to you know drown out what people are saying by talking you know when i 'm when i 'm instead of pressing up on on a remote control . you know if there 's some there 's some dialogue all of a sudden that i ca n't hear , i 'm trying to actually find out what 's being said , project manager: yeah . user interface: so maybe speech recognition gets in the way more than it helps . project manager: okay so marketing: yeah but you know the the average frequency of pushing buttons , it 's about user interface: well it depends if it 's a remote control th marketing: it 's about eighty eighty eighty pushes per hour , or something like that . user interface: maybe if the remote control is something that y you do n't actually have to pick up anymore , that would be a a useful feature of the speech recogntion . marketing: user interface: if you can leave it sitting on the table and you do n't actually have to find it , then that could be . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: okay gentlemens , we have to take some deci decisions right now . industrial designer: alright . project manager: um so if i if i kind of summarise everything we 've de we we said . we are targeting tv . we need we need to have um um remote control which is fanc fancy , which is uh which is easy to to hand not too small , not too big . um we have marketing: with a good shape for the project manager: or good shape , yes . we should bring new technologies for young peoples , and uh as we have uh also requirements to to use uh to to push thr toward the internet . maybe this is something we can stick to it . and um also , a very interesting things i i i 've seen on on on the one of the comp o our competitor is this wheel that we can use to navigate . so so my feeling is that re regarding costs budget we have an an an target price , it 's not possible to go s to go to lcd and also to go to automatic speech recognition technologies . uh first m m why not to go to lcd . because um in fact as we are targeting uh tv in fact we can use tv screen as a screen to feedback to to give some feedback informations about what we could have . user interface: well it depends though well it depends . if we we do n't unless we have some input some video input to the tv or we have control over the tv then we ca n't actually display that . like if we if we produce the tvs then then yeah we can put you know menus up up there , but otherwise we need to actually have some kind of something sitting in between the video signal and the and the tv to superimpose those those menus . so that 's an extra project manager: yeah that 's right . don do n't you ha user interface: cost . project manager: do n't we have contacts with uh people on tv or or well systems that exist that we can use ? user interface: well this is this is another que we still have n't really defined the remote . are we still you say we 're focusing on tv , but is it still a kind of like a universal remote in that it 's a replacement remote control , or is this something for our own line of of televisions ? project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause that really makes a big difference . 'cause even if we have contacts we ca n't really produce a remote control that can bring up menus on other other companies ' tvs . it 's just there are too many tvs out there . it 's it 's not really gon na project manager: yeah . that 's good point . what 's what cou what could be the cost of uh well , could we fit the the targets uh in terms of cost uh if we go s to lcd on the remote control ? user interface: for twenty five euro ? i think it 's impossible . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: it 's not possible . it 's impossible . user interface: but but i dunno , marketing: yeah . user interface: i think um it would be good to know if there is any leverage in that any leeway in that um that twenty five euro because for twenty five euro i think all we can really do is provide a very basic remote control , and that seems to be kind of against the philosophy of our company which is you know putting the fashion into electronics . so i would i would like to know if there 's any chance of of increasing the uh marketing: uh user interface: of increasing the unit price . project manager: so you mean yo you mean we we should target something maybe which is which would be more expensive but re really fancy in terms to um in terms to had to have really an added value ? marketing: what would be user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah project manager: okay , user interface: because yeah . project manager: so regarding the automatic speech recognition , i think this is marketing: wha but what would be one question , what would be the goal of putting an lcd in a remote control ? user interface: well th marketing: what what kind of information ? user interface: 'cause you can have things like the programme name instead of the channel numbers , like an interactive programme guide . marketing: yeah but mo most of the tvs nowadays show the show the project manager: they have tele teletext . well , because they have teletext on it . marketing: the n project manager: th th you have a teletext sin signal that you can that you can uh that you can get thr through the channel . marketing: yeah but yeah most of the tvs have teletext nowadays . project manager: they have t most of them have teletext , but we want to get rid well one of our requirements is to uh to move to teletext to uh to the use of internet . marketing: yeah . project manager: so to to uh user interface: you can get a lot more information on it . project manager: to browse more easily the teletext . for instance through uh through your remote control . marketing: so what would what would appear in the in the lcd ? user interface: so you could have the name of the programme , you could have um the start time you know where it 's up to . project manager: the ti the start time , all the p all the programmes you could have uh o user interface: you could have a l even a little image of you know the c you know the the m the main actors or something marketing: okay . user interface: so you can quickly just kind of even without reading project manager: well i do n't know if this information is available from teletext , also . user interface: well no , but there are the electronic programme guides out there . they may not have pictures , but maybe they do . industrial designer: are user interface: there 's dependi it also depends on the country . project manager: well because for the same reason that we can not uh informations on the tv . we c we could n't grab information information which is not there . user interface: no but i mean with the internet you have flexibility of where you get your information from . so it may be possible that there are people out there providing that . uh . project manager: so so that mean w w we need an in an extra internet connection to use the remote control , if you want to browse , in addition to the tv , or uh or it should be a special tv connected to marketing: but yeah . user interface: well i i think if we 're gon na i think we would definitely need the internet connection because even with y i do n't think you could even get teletext information from the tv onto the remote control , especially if we do n't control the tv . project manager: user interface: i dunno . we need to find that out . project manager: okay . we need to close the meeting . um so industrial designer: but just a small thing , project manager: very quickly . industrial designer: what kind of market we are targeting ? is it that we are targeting the replacement remote market , or what ? so the remote has gone bad and the person wants to buy a new remote or because the cost of lcd thing could be as high as the tv itself . project manager: no . industrial designer: that is very important . user interface: mm . project manager: yeah , well people go to buy another remote control when they broke n broke their , user interface: if it 's a really small tv maybe . industrial designer: broke . okay . okay . project manager: and they want to go t for universal one , and they take the fanciest they can have . industrial designer: okay . okay . okay . okay . project manager: so this is that we z that that we should target . so the com the um the uh the committment is the following , we do n't go for speech recognition technology . the lcd is still on disc is still open to discussion . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: it is up to you to go through this um uh this way and to to report report me back next meeting . so marketing: i think that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper the than the lcd . industrial designer: it 's it 's cheaper as compared to the lcd . project manager: yeah , but not sure . maybe it 's cheaper , but we have no marketing: because with the lcd you need more requirements . you need a internet connection . you need m more things . user interface: marketing: but user interface: well the thing is i think i think the type of peop marketing: for the speech recognition you you do n't need anything . you just say channel fifty , and that 's it . user interface: i think the type of people that are gon na want to buy a very stylish rem r remote control with lots of new technologies are the kinda people that are gon na have you know a wireless internet connection maybe , or a you know . marketing: but then we should move to another target b because at twenty five dollars , industrial designer: means th yeah twenty five euros is yeah , that 's right . user interface: well this is what we need to find out . marketing: it 's user interface: can we can we increase the the price point of this remote control ? 'cause otherwise we need project manager: okay this is this is an open question for you . yeah . this is uh up to you to tell us . but i 'm definitely not keen on to to marketing: to move to another target ? project manager: no no no , i 'm no i 'm definit definitely not keen on going to speech recognition technologies . i 'm not confident enough . i 'm not sure that that we 'll have a product really that work . i uh that work user interface: it 's kind of hard to guarantee that you 're gon na project manager: it 's real yeah . how to guarantee such performances is really hard . user interface: marketing: the expert uh said ninety five percent . industrial designer: project manager: well this is still is is very bad . user interface: ninety five percent is not good enough though . project manager: so , this is the end of this discussion . next meeting uh here are the task you have to work on . um so you have to work on the component uh concept . industrial designer: okay . project manager: uh you have to work on user interface , and you have to go through a trend watching . okay . so the question is still open about the lcd thing . um uh we i hope that next meeting we will uh we 'll take some um decision that direction . thanks . bye . user interface: yep .

user interface thought that sometimes the speech recognition interrupted people when there was a dialogue on the tv program . unless the remote control could be made to not have to pick up any more , that would be a useful feature of speech recognition . project manager was not keen on it because project manager was not confident they would have a product that was able to work . however , marketing thought that the speech recognition technology would be cheaper than the lcd and people must buy it with twenty-five euros .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

it was a heated debate between the opposition party and the ministers . the members from the opposition parties first pointed out some flaws in the government 's current measures in hoping to better implement them . however , some of their suggestions were either not adopted or avoided . the opposition party also addressed their concerns towards fiscal pressure , employment market and production of personal protective equipment in the midst of the pandemic . the ministers listed a roll of policies that was either already in place or going to be . finally , the opposition party named a few industries in canada such as agriculture , tourism and fishing that were struck seriously by the pandemic . the ministers promised that more financial support was coming in order to engineer canada 's economy .

summarize the debate about the flaws in government ` s pandemic relief program . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the leader of the opposition party raised the point that some companies which had purchased other companies might not be eligible for the wage subsidy program , and money allocated for the wage subsidy was going unspent because the government had left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . however , the deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs argued that the wage subsidy program was supposed to reach out to as many companies as possible , and the wage subsidy was really put in place by a large amount of money to protect workers across canada .

how did racism and long-term care related to government 's policy ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the leader of the opposition party wished to know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . the minister reassured that there would not be such a thing in the police system . and also , the opposition party questioned about the inadequate long-term care facilities in canada , and the minister stressed that the government saw it as a matter of utmost concern and urgency .

summarize the questioning about canada summer jobs program . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

members from the opposition party questioned that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program had not yet received the money they are entitled to . the minister of families , children and social development answered that they were putting in strength to reinforce the program and allow it in reaching out to more unemployed students . members from the opposition party raised their concern towards the weak job market due to the covid-19 , but the minister argued that they were still tackling obstacles to implement this policy in reality .

summarize the questioning about the local production of surgical masks , protective gowns and n95 masks . </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

since the government cancelled contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards , the member highlighted that it should be supporting more local companies for production . the minister answered that the government had been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time , and were signing contracts with few more domestic companies . however , the opposition party was skeptical about those companies and other possible companies receiving sufficient funds for production .

what did the opposition party and the minister debated about transparency of information during pandemic crisis ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the minister of canadian heritage explained that the government remained committed to maintaining the openness and transparency during the crisis . however , the opposition party questioned about the allocation of $ 35 billion of infrastructure money . the opposition party suspected that the money went to personal salary and this doubt was not clarified enough during the later discussion .

how was the reopening of the house of commons related to the diplomatic relations of canada ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

according to the introduction of the opposition party , it has the power to introduce supply day motions and test government confidence . and the opposition party hoped that through this regime , canada would take stronger diplomatic action on hong kong and gave more support for 300,000 canadians living there . the minister of foreign affairs promised that the canada government would be continuing to raise voices to stand up for the people of hong kong .

why was the advance payment program delayed ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the minister of agriculture and agri-food promised that under the circumstances , the government was doing its best to make the advance payments . some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , the opposition party suggested that there was policy change that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of the pandemic . the minister explained that they were still constantly working with the administrators of the program .

what was the discussion about amendments of policies on protecting workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the opposition party raised the problem that thousands of canadian workers were exposed and vulnerable , and might experience bankruptcy anytime . the opposition party also stated that the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and would not protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the minister explained that they were continuing to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected .

what was the debate about government providing direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the minister explained that the government was committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities and they were continuing that engagement . however , the opposition party argued that the support was delayed several times . the minister argued that they had done a lot , such as establishing the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion .

how was the tourism industry in canada being affected , and what was the government ` s implementations to ease the loss ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the opposition party stated that the government announced investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada , but it was not enough . there would be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . the minister of economic development and official languages explained that those who had experienced losses would be able to have access to the wage subsidy , the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . also , another minister explained that the prime minister and the minister of finance had committed an additional $ 1 billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks .

how was the government going to deal with overwhelming federal debt ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the minister placed assurance on coming out with a broader plan once the pandemic situation became more stable economically . at the same time , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries gave the government opportunities to invest on behalf of canadians , and they would continue to take that approach . and the minister promised that there would not be higher taxes .

what was the debate over the economic recovery plan ? </s> the chair (hon. anthony rota (nipissingtimiskaming, lib.)): i call this meeting to order . welcome to the 14thmeeting of the house of commons special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . this will be a hybrid meeting . some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person . in order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber , two screens have been set up on either side of the speaker 's chair , and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk . before speaking , please wait until i recognize you by name , and please direct your remarks through the chair . for those joining via video conference , i would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking . also , please note that if you want to speak in english , you should be on the english channel . if you want to speak french , you should be on the french channel . should you wish to alternate between the two languages , you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages . should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times , they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order . those in the chamber can rise in the usual way . please note that today 's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the house . we 'll now proceed to ministerial announcements . i understand that there are none . now we 'll proceed to the tabling of documents . mr.leblanc has a document he wants to table . go ahead , mr.leblanc . hon. dominic leblanc: mr. chair , i have the honour to table , in both official languages , a report entitled `` democracy matters , debates count : a report on the 2019 leaders ' debates commission and the future of debates in canada . mr. chair , on behalf of all of us , i want to thank the right honourable david johnston for his continued service . the chair: good . we 'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions , for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . i would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions . for members participating in person , we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented . in presenting petitions , the first presenter today is mr. genuis . mr. garnett genuis (sherwood parkfort saskatchewan, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . i 'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of bill s-204 . this is a bill in the senate , put forward by senator salma ataullahjan . it would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor . it also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking . this bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which , in certain casesfor instance , inside chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they 're killed and used for transplantation . petitioners are supportive of bill s-204 , and they want to see it passed as soon as possible . the chair: our next petition will go to mr. viersen . mr. arnold viersen (peace riverwestlock, cpc): mr. chair , i am presenting a petition today signed by canadians who are concerned that bill c-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime , including the mandatory 10-day waiting period . mr. chair , these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living , not assisted dying . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. zahid . mrs. salma zahid (scarborough centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people . it asks that the government of canada recognize the republic of somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments , direct access of development aid , foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans . the chair: now we 'll proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes . each statement will be for a maximum of one minute . i remind members that if they exceed that time limit , they will be interrupted . our first statement goes to monsieur el-khoury . mr. fayal el-khoury (lavalles les, lib.): mr.chair , i thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on canadians . it has acted in a robust , rapid and very effective way . our prime minister has been awarded the medal of honour , courage and humanity worldwide . canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times . while addressing canadians , our right honourable prime minister showed us leadership , the importance of transparency , and integrity . he kept us united . his top priority was saving lives , along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life . because of his outstanding leadership , we 're admired across the world , which is another distinguished privilege of being canadian . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. epp . mr. dave epp (chatham-kentleamington, cpc): covid-19 has emptied food banks across canada , even in an agricultural community like chatham-kent , so wes thompson and james rasmussen , along with alysson storey , randi bokor , maureen geddes , chris and terry johnston , jason king , fannie vavoulis and brent wilken , grew an idea into the community 's largest-ever food drive . project manager morna mcdonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the may 16 miracle . residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps , with drop-off centres organized for rural areas . volunteer groups travelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing . the community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food . they accidentally exceeded by over 20 % the record in the guinness world records book for collected food in a single day . chatham-kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride . it 's an honour to represent such a community . the chair: we 'll now go to mr. sarai . we have a point of order from mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont (west nova, cpc): as much as i like seeing my friends on the big screens , there are no big screens yet , so we do n't know who 's on and who 's not on . i was wondering if there was going to be a tv coming up soon here , mr. chair . the chair: there is a technical issue , and it is being worked on . we 're working on it as we go through . the other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it . if it 's okay , we 'll just continue . i think we can all hear the members who are speaking . this is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system . our next statement will go to mr. sarai . mr. randeep sarai (surrey centre, lib.): thank you , mr. chair , and mabuhay to all the filipino canadians across this country . in june across canada we recognize filipino heritage month to raise awareness and celebrate the filipino community . here in surrey centre , and across canada , the filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today . now more than ever , during these challenging times we must come together as canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our filipino neighbours . throughout june , please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making canada a better place for all of us . happy filipino heritage month . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: mr.perron . mr. yves perron (berthiermaskinong, bq): good afternoon , mr.chair . today is world milk day , and i would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry . they ensure we have a nutritious , high quality product every day . let 's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors . enjoy the yogurts , cheeses and other products because it 's true that milk is good . i would also like to thank brunoletendre , outgoing chair of the producteurs de lait du qubec , and i congratulate the new chair , danielgobeil . the dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements . the government 's broken promises are piling up . the payment of compensation is still uncertain . action must be taken . the first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors , and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation . we demand a formal commitment from the government . the chair: we 'll now continue with mr.iacono . mr. angelo iacono (alfred-pellan, lib.): mr.chair , june is italian heritage month . the situation is special this year , since italy has been hard hit by covid-19 , with more than 30,000deaths . like me , many italian canadians still have family and friends in italy , and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take , yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between canada and italy . today i would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community . during the pandemic , canadians of italian descent have been united to support anziani , our famiglie and our amici in italy by participating in the fundraising campaign covid-19 aiutiamo litalia to support the italian red cross response activities . i send a special salute to to my cugino giuseppe , who is still on the road to recovery from covid-19 . the chair: we 'll continue with mr. kram . mr. michael kram (reginawascana, cpc): mr. chair , i would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in saskatchewan and across canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic . in particular , i would like to thank the regina downtown business improvement district , or rdbid . as soon as the pandemic hit , rdbid launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their members informed of support programs , local initiatives and local success stories . they have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services , online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers . they have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce . through persistent communication and a lot of long hours , rdbid has helped businesses in downtown regina to weather the storm . because of their hard work , downtown regina will come through this pandemic better than ever . the chair: mr.lauzon now has the floor . mr. stphane lauzon (argenteuilla petite-nation, lib.): mr.chair , high-speed internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th : an essential service . we are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals , our consumption patterns and our socialization habits . we are turning to the internet to read the news , contact our friends and complete our purchases . isolation associated with covid-19 has only accelerated this trend . unfortunately , not all regions of canada have reliable , affordable , high-speed access . i would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government , but also about the work i 've been doing as a member of parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of argenteuilla petite-nation . aside from this essential service , our students , seniors , entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions . we have heard you , and i will continue to fight for you , so that you can have access to affordable high-speed internet . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. mackinnon . mr. steven mackinnon (gatineau, lib.): mr. chair , a few days ago , we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in minneapolis . for many of us , these images may seem shocking , but it 's an all too familiar tale to millions of black people not only in the united states but also here in canada , in my city of gatineau and around the world , who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism . mr.chair , i ca n't know what it 's like to be black in our society . what i do know , however , is that you and i , and everyone in this house , have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just . let us all recommit ourselves to that endeavour . black canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us , and they expect more from us . the chair: mr. duncan is next . mr. eric duncan (stormontdundassouth glengarry, cpc): without a doubt , these past few months have been challenging , to say the least , from both a health and economic perspective , but , mr. chair , i have to say how proud i am of my community of stormontdundassouth glengarry . we continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and , just as importantly , we are making sure that we are here for each other , whether it is the cornwall optimists ' gofeedme campaign , the iroquois-matilda lions club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local united way , the social development council or the carefor seniors support centre co-leading an effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need . there have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community . i rise today in the house of commons to say thank you to my constituents and to all canadians ; to our essential front-line workers , our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out ; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge . i could n't be more proud of my community and my residents , and it is an honour to serve as their member of parliament . thank you , mr. chair . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. yip . ms. jean yip (scarboroughagincourt, lib.): mr. chair , although asian heritage month has just passed , we recognize the tremendous effort of all asian canadians on the front lines of this pandemic , as health care providers or as essential workers . i want to thank the many asian organizations for donating to scarboroughagincourt 's hospital , long-term care homes and food banks . as a canadian born and raised in scarborough , i 'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targeting asian-canadian communities across this country . in budget 2019 we invested $ 45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy , which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat , because these efforts are unfortunately clearly still needed . as events continue to unfold in the united states , it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well . whether it is anti-black or anti-asian , racism and discrimination of any kind have no place in canadafull stop . now more than ever , we must stand united in diversity . the chair: we 'll now go on to mr. bragdon . mr. richard bragdon (tobiquemactaquac, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . over the last few months , canadians throughout new brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community . health care workers , truckers , farmers , business owners , pharmacists , grocery store staff , faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part . today , mr. chair , i would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of our seniors , who are among some of our most at-risk citizens . it has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable . our seniors have made immense contributions to our society . many have put their lives on the line to protect canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as canadians . they have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives to make canada the greatest nation on earth . taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do . i want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors . whether they be long-term care staff , personal care workers , health care professionals , family members or volunteers , thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors . together we shall overcome . the chair: we 'll now go to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin (port moodycoquitlam, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . although we 've come to the end of asian heritage month , i 'd like to acknowledge some unsung chinese canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriots for our nation . i commemorate the 6,500 chinese canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite canada . i pay respect to the many chinese canadians who died while building the cp railway on the most dangerous terrains in the b.c . segment . i honour the chinese canadians who served and died in world war ii . sadly , asian communities in canada face racist incidents today . no one should be afraid of walking in their own neighbourhood . adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists . there 's no justification for racial slurs , physical violence or vandalism against any individual or community . i will continue to work together with other elected officials , the police and the rcmp to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration . the chair: we 'll go on to mr. angus . mr. angus , please proceed . mr. charlie angus (timminsjames bay, ndp): ten years ago today , cree youth leader shannen koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident . she was only 15 years old , yet in her short life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination . shannen had never seen a real school . children in attawapiskat were being educated in squalid conditions . her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in canadian history . at 14 she was nominated for the international children 's peace prize . shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community , but her work carries on through the shannen 's dream movement . she is a role model for youth activists across this country . a movie , two books and a statue are dedicated to her . she 's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in canadian history . i had the honour to know shannen . in fact , i think of her every single day . she truly did come from the angels , and one day she returned . the chair: mr.barsalou-duval , you now have the floor . mr. xavier barsalou-duval (pierre-boucherles patriotesverchres, bq): mr.chair , for months now , thousands of consumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected : three class action suits , a unanimous motion by the national assembly and over 30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights . it is n't a whim to enforce the law . air canada , which confiscated $ 2.6billion from its customers , received more than $ 800million from ottawa without any conditions . yet , the company has a year 's worth of cash in reserve , $ 6billion in its coffers , and is in the process of raising more than $ 1.4billion in the financial markets . air canada has the means to reimburse citizens . it has the money it needs . we 're tired of the minister of transport 's crocodile tears . i consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and did n't see any airlines listed . now is the time to work for the people . the chair: mr.rayes now has the floor . mr. alain rayes (richmondarthabaska, cpc): mr.chair , i want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here , in the house , for close to 15years : michelgauthier . michel , in life , we meet a lot of people , but some of them leave their mark on us forever . from the first time i spoke with you two years ago , i immediately understood that i was talking with a man with heart , a passionate man , a man who had quebec imprinted on his heart . because of your decision to join the conservative party of canada , i got to know you personally , and i am most grateful . i will remember our discussions on the best ways to communicate our conservative vision to quebeckers . i will remember our heated discussions on quebec-canada relations . i will remember all the passion and energy you had in the lead-up to a speech to our supporters . michel , canadians , quebeckers and i will remember you forever , the great man you were , the outstanding speaker , a formidable parliamentarian , with integrity , passion , commitment and love for quebec . i offer my sincere condolences to anne , and to your family and friends . rest in peace . the chair: mr.dubourg , you now have the floor . mr. emmanuel dubourg (bourassa, lib.): mr.chair , the murder of georgefloyd in minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in canada and also in the heart of montreal north . at a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community find themselves on the front lines as essential workers , an event like this rekindles feelings of fear , powerlessness and injustice . it has happened once again in the unitedstates , but we are not immune to such behaviour here , in canada . dear constituents of bourassa , i know our stories , i feel with you the pain as a parent and as a black person . i know this constant fear for our children . as elected officials , we have the duty to protect your rights and to ensure harmony . we must be vigilant and work to deconstruct prejudice and discrimination . the chair: before continuing , i 'd like to give a reminder . to avoid sound problems , members participating in person should n't connect to the video conference . there seems to be some interference when you watch the video conference in the chamber and it 's being transmitted , so let us make things run more smoothly . we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers . please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes in order to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely . the first question goes to the leader of the opposition , mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer (leader of the opposition): thank you very much , mr. chair . when the government first starting rolling out programs to help canadians get through this pandemic , we raised points about some flaws and gaps in the program . the government assured canadians that it would fix these programs as time went on . well , canadians are suffering through both the health and the economic consequences of the lockdown related to the coronavirus . here we are the first day of june and the government still has yet to address the flaws in its programs ; it is still letting so many canadians down . i have a series of very straightforward and specific questions . on april 20 we raised with the minister of finance the issue of companies that had purchased another company not being able to demonstrate revenue loss , and therefore not being eligible for the wage subsidy , even though both companies separately would have been able to do just that . we have raised it several times now . i would like to ask the government when it will be fixing this unnecessarily rigid aspect of the wage subsidy program . hon. chrystia freeland (deputy prime minister and minister of intergovernmental affairs): mr. chair , i believe that a company with a fantastic canadian history in the member 's riding , brandt tractor , which pioneered the manufacturing of augers in canada , is particularly affected by this . it is very important for us that the wage subsidy be available to as many canadian companies as possible . it helps to keep employees connected to their businesses . now , there are always some specific issues that can make it challenging for particular companies . i know that in the case of brandt tractor , for example , officials from the ministry of finance are directly in touch with the company to work on its issues . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , that 's the same answer we got last week . it 's the same answer we got two weeks before that , and it 's the same answer we have been getting from day one . this is a very simple question . the government has indicated that it will change this program to allow for amalgamations . the solution is very simple . it is to also allow for those companies that have undergone acquisitions . this is a very specific question : will the government fix this program and allow for companies that have acquired another company to still access the wage subsidy program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , let me just point out that the wage subsidy program is working extremely well for many , many canadian companies and for many , many canadians who are able to keep their jobs thanks to the program . more than two million canadian workers are today benefiting from the wage subsidy program . by any measure that is a successful program . now , for sure there are always going to be companies which , because of specifics in their history , need specific attention , and that the chair: we 'll go back to mr. scheer . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , reports indicate that up to half of the money allocated for the wage subsidy is going unspent , precisely because this government has left in unnecessarily rigid barriers for companies to be able to access it . it 's a yes-or-no question , and the minister still ca n't answer it . along the same lines , we asked on april 8 to allow businesses applying for the wage subsidy to demonstrate their 30 % revenue loss using other metrics , such as loss of earnings , subscriptions and orders , in order to qualify . they still ca n't do that today , the first day of june . why has n't the government addressed this part of the program ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , we are very proud of the wage subsidy program and proud of the role it is playing to keep canadian businesses going and , crucially , to keep canadian workers connected to their jobs , but i have a question for the member opposite . half of the questions we hear from the conservatives in question period are concerns that we 're spending too much money , that the deficit is too high . the other half of the time they complain about specific companies not getting access to our programs . we know which side we 're on as a government . i 'd like the conservatives to let canadians know what they believe in . the chair: mr. scheer , you may have a short question . hon. andrew scheer: mr. chair , it 's quite clear what conservatives believe in . we believe that when times were good , this government should have paid down debt instead of wasting money like $ 50 million to mastercard and $ 12 million to loblaws . the fact of the matter is that the government left canadians in a vulnerable position as we were entering this pandemic precisely because of its fiscal irresponsibility , and now they have designed programs that have unnecessary barriers in them that prevent more and more canadians from getting the help they need . again , on april 26 , conservatives asked the prime minister to change the criteria for the canada emergency business account so that small businesses that do n't happen to have a business bank account can qualify . why has n't the prime minister made that change either ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i 'm really grateful for that question because it allows me to set the record straight for canadians . canadians need to know that our country has the lowest debt-to-gdp ratio in the g7 . we had that before the crisis began , and we still do . canada has the fiscal firepower to support canadians during this unprecedented crisis , and that is what we are going to continue to do . the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille (salaberrysurot, bq): mr.chair , the wage subsidy was put in place to support businesses and smes , to avoid closures and bankruptcy . have i missed something ? is the liberal party on the verge of bankruptcy ? is it about to shut down ? does the prime minister consider that the liberal party is getting ready to close its doors ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i thank the hon . member for the question . i want to point out that , as the hon . member said , the wage subsidy was really put in place to protect workers across canada . we are proud of that . more than 2million canadians have benefited from this the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , the liberal party made $ 3million between january and march of this year . that 's $ 3million in political donations . we 're told that the emergency subsidy is being used to protect the jobs of liberal party employees . i 'm not an accountant , but i can count . i 'm wondering why the liberal party does n't use its own money to pay its own employees instead of using the canada emergency wage subsidy . hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i would like to point out again that the purpose of the canada emergency wage subsidy is to support workers across canada and quebec , to help them keep their jobs and allow them to stay connected to their workplace . that is what we 've done . more than 2million canadians are benefiting from this important and truly essential program for our country . we are proud of it . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , does the deputy prime minister think it is moral , fair and honest that employees who have lost their jobs are subsidizing an emergency wage subsidy for the liberal party of canada out of their taxes ? hon. chrystia freeland: our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers . the hon . member talked about businesses and sectors that need more help . we agree . there is still a lot to do , but we want to work with all the the chair: mrs.debellefeuille . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , many struggling businesses in quebec do n't have access to the canada emergency wage subsidy because they do n't meet the eligibility criteria . many tourism and municipal organizations , among others , do n't have access to this wage subsidy . however , it 's very clear that the liberal party qualifies according to the program criteria . does the deputy prime minister really think it 's moral for her party to benefit from the emergency wage subsidy when it has the financial means to pay its own employees ? hon. chrystia freeland: i thank the hon . member for her question . i agree that there is still a lot to do . we are ready , and we are taking action . however , it 's important to point out that our government has already done a lot to support canadians . we 've spent $ 152billion in direct support measures to canadians . more than eightmillion people are benefiting from the cerb , and more than twomillion the chair: mrs.debellefeuille , you have the floor . mrs. claude debellefeuille: mr.chair , what i understand is not really complicated to understand . i understand that the liberal party has money , that it has money to pay its employees , but that it does n't want to cut the booty it has amassed for the next election . it 's as if it were telling us that it 's indirectly financing itself for the next election . will the deputy prime minister show some leadership and convince her own party to give up the emergency wage subsidy and even commit to paying back the money it has already received ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr.chair , i want to point out that our programs do not discriminate . they are there to help all workers across the country , and i want to point out to what extent our programs do that . eight million people are currently benefiting from the cerb , and two million are supported by the emergency wage subsidy . our programs are also helping 380,000students and 639,000businesses the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. singh . mr. jagmeet singh (burnaby south, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . canadians and people across the world are reeling after seeing the images of george floyd being brutally killed in a callous and casual manner . we 're struggling with the impacts of anti-black racism . anti-black racism has n't just appeared or increased . it 's now simply being captured by video . canada is also no different . anti-black racism also impacts canada , and people here are feeling the frustration of black lives being neglected and ignored . will the government commit to tracking race-based data in terms of covid-19 's impact on communities , particularly black canadians , and track race-based data so that we can have a better response based on the evidence ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , i would like to start by thanking the member opposite for his very important question and the very important work he has done throughout his career in drawing attention to racism in canada and in fighting against it . thank you . i agree strongly with the member opposite that we , as canadians , must be the opposite of complacent . we have to acknowledge that anti-black racism is real in our country , that unconscious bias is real in our country and that systemic discrimination is real . it happens here . we have to commit today to working hard to fight it . i have more to say about disaggregated data and the coronavirus , and i hope i 'll have a chance to do that in my next answer . mr. jagmeet singh: thank you for that openness on the part of the government . i want more and clear commitments . we also know that race-based or discriminatory police practices still exist across canada . will the government commit to working with provinces to ensure there are no such practices allowed to exist in canada , particularly related to discriminatory police practices like carding ? will the federal government work and use its powers to end those discriminatory practices where federal regulation applies , and work with the provinces to ensure this happens across the country ? hon. chrystia freeland: thank you again for that very important question . first of all , on coronavirus , our government believes that disaggregated data , including when it comes to race , is extremely important . we 're working with our provincial partners on that . on policing , racial profiling is unacceptable and unlawful . we will always work to uphold the canadian charter of rights and freedoms and to ensure the human rights of everyone in canada are protected . at the federal level , rcmp members are guided by bias-free policing based on equality and non-discrimination . mr. jagmeet singh: i want to change tracks , mr. chair , and talk about long-term care . how many times did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government meet with lobbyists from for-profit long-term care homes from march 25 to april 22 , during the worst impacts of covid-19 in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: mr. chair , at this moment i can only speak for myself , and i have not met with any such lobbyists during that period or at other times . i share the member opposite 's concerns about long-term care facilities in canada . we have to do better , and we will . mr. jagmeet singh: it was 12 times during the worst impacts of covid-19 . while seniors were dying in long-term care homes , the prime minister 's office and the liberal government met with private , for-profit long-term care home lobbyists 12 times . why did the prime minister 's office and the liberal government choose to meet with these for-profit long-term care home lobbyists instead of meeting with those to solve the problem ? instead of making excuses about the federal government not playing a role , why did n't the prime minister and the liberal government show leadership in calling for an end to profit in long-term care homes ? hon. chrystia freeland: let me very clear about one thing , speaking on behalf of our government and on behalf of the prime minister . our government sees as a matter of utmost concern and utmost urgency what has been happening in long-term care homes in our country , and the reports we have received from the brave men and women of the canadian armed forces about facilities in ontario and quebec need to be treated as historic documents that the chair: now it 's mr.rayes 's turn . mr.rayes , you have the floor . mr. alain rayes: mr.chair , why is it that employers from industry , businesses and community organizations that have been approved in the canada summer jobs program still have n't received the money they 're entitled to ? hon. ahmed hussen (minister of families, children and social development): we are ensuring that the canada summer jobs program is strengthened and enforced . we are making it more available to more students . we have lengthened the time period that the program the chair: mr.rayes has the floor . mr. alain rayes: every day , the prime minister makes announcements in front of his residence . i 'll repeat my question . given the importance of the program for our youth who are looking to work , how is it that the organizations have n't yet received the money they need to hire students ? as we know , there have been some problems with the cesb . hon. ahmed hussen: our government is working hard to help employers adapt to the realities of covid-19 . we recognize the important role that the canada summer jobs program plays in supporting employers and young workers in communities across the country every year . that is why we have introduced flexibilities in the canada summer jobs program to hire youth while providing more supports to employers . mr. alain rayes: the minister can say whatever he wants . last year , there was no crisis and , as of april , all employers who had been admitted to the program had received the money . we are currently in a crisis . the government is trying to respond quickly to the needs . right now , community organizations are not receiving the money to which they are entitled to hire students , to put them to work and to give them an employment opportunity . why ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have managed to introduce flexibilities to take into consideration the difficult environment of the covid-19 pandemic . as such , the flexibilities we 've introduced into the canada summer jobs program will help with more hiring of youth and more supports to employers , including non-profits and businesses that deliver essential services to canadians . these changes will help small businesses hire and keep the workers that they need in the canada summer jobs program . mr. alain rayes: the young people and employers listening to us must be very surprised by what the minister is saying . he mentioned that the rules are now more flexible . however , it is taking a month and a half longer than last year . the money has not yet been given out . i have done my homework . i went to see what was happening in my riding and in about 10other ridings . last year , in my riding , all the money had been deposited before april . right now , there is a $ 240,000shortfall for about 60student jobs , and the minister has the nerve to tell us that the government has provided more flexibility . why is the money not available if the government wants to act quickly , to help the economy recover and to help young people ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , indeed we are acting quickly . we are listening to the needs of the employers to make sure that this program works not only for them but also for youth , and that it gives them the experiences they need . it is adapted better for the covid-19 pandemic to ensure that youth have the experience they need to gain life and work skills from the program . it 's a great program , and we 're making it work not just for businesses but also for non-profits . mr. alain rayes: here is the reality . last week , the owner of a hardware store in a village in my riding had to close his business because he was unable to hire students and had no one to work . this morning , an employer called me to tell me that his request to hire a student had been accepted , but that the delay meant that he could not proceed with the hiring . this means that one more young person will not have a job . that young person will therefore have to receive the cesb . there is the reality . when is the government going to release the money required for young people to be able to work ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i join the honourable member in recognizing that in the context of the covid-19 pandemic there are some difficulties in terms of structuring the program and making sure that employers are able to access it . that is why we 've introduced flexibilities to ensure that employers are able to access the program and that youth are also able to take advantage of the program to gain important work skills , especially in the context of the covid-19 pandemic and especially in providing essential services that serve their fellow canadians . it 's a great program . we 're doing everything that we can to work through some of those obstacles . the chair: we 'll now continue with ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: thank you , mr. chair . by its own numbers , pspc has had to cut the number of n95 masks the government has on order after cancelling contracts with companies that were not able to meet canadian standards . we know that companies right here in canada were willing to step up and fill in the gap . will the minister commit to making domestic production of ppe , including n95 masks , a priority ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. anita anand (minister of public services and procurement): mr. chair , our priority is to make sure that we get safe and effective equipment and supplies into the hands of front-line health care workers . we 've been running multiple complementary supply chains at the same time . building up domestic capacity is indeed a priority . we have a contract with medicom in montreal for the production of n95 masks and we will continue to work hard to ensure the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , novo textiles , a company in my riding , has retooled its factory to produce surgical masks in response to the shortage of ppe in canada . additionally , it will soon be producing quality made-in-canada n95 masks using canadian designs and canadian-made machinery . my constituent has invested his own capital and is in active production supplying front-line workers right now , not just talking about it . however , the company 's application to ngen was recently rejected . canada needs masks now , masks that meet canadian standards . is the government serious about growing domestic production capacity , or is it all talk and no action ? hon. anita anand: in reality , we have received 101.3 million surgical masks that are being distributed out to provinces and territories . we have signed 24 contracts with domestic companies for the production of ppe right here at home . we are working very hard , mr. chair , to make sure canadian front-line health care workers have exactly what they need to fight this pandemic . ms. nelly shin: mr. chair , how many of these have received financial support from the government ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , i 'm not quite sure what the member is referring to by how many of these , but as i said , we have signed 24 contracts with domestic the chair: we 'll have to go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: where are these manufacturers located ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have surgical masks being produced right here at home , as well as abroad , being brought into canada the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: what provinces are they in ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , as i said , we have a contract with general motors for the production of surgical masks the chair: ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: are there any in any provinces besides ontario and quebec ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we have contracts with multiple provinces throughout this country for the production of personal protective equipment . we are committed the chair: back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: how many of these domestic manufacturers rely on supply chains in china ? hon. anita anand: mr. chair , we are dealing with a situation of very high global demand for the same product . as a result , we the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: will the minister commit to providing my office with answers to these questions ? thank you . hon. anita anand: i will commit , mr. chair , to continuing to work hard for canadians to supply the personal protective equipment that they need . we have been giving updated numbers on our website the chair: we 'll go back to ms. shin . ms. nelly shin: i 'm going to assume that answer is no . mr. chair , the prime minister introduced the canada student service grant on april 22. students were told details would arrive in a matter of weeks . it 's been over a month , the i want to help platform has no details yet about eligibility , levels of funding , or how to apply . post-secondary students are already one-quarter into their summer break . when can students expect to start applying for the cssg so they can receive their grants ? thank you . the chair: the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger (minister of diversity and inclusion and youth): mr. chair , i 'm pleased to share that students can anticipate more programs coming out as soon as possible . the i want to help website will be launched . students can already apply for canada summer jobs if they go to jobbank.gc.ca . by visiting canada.ca/coronavirus , you 'll see a suite of programs to ensure that students and young people are able to succeed . the coronavirus will not win , and our government will continue investing in our leaders of today and tomorrow . the chair: the next set of questions goes to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard (barrieinnisfil, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . last week the president of the treasury board wrote a letter to his cabinet colleagues in which he said that , as the federal minister responsible for public access to government information , he has advised his cabinet colleagues of the need for transparency and accountability , even in times of crisis . my question is for the minister of infrastructure and communities . does she agree with the president of the treasury board 's directive ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. steven guilbeault (minister of canadian heritage): mr. chair , the government remains committed to maintaining the openness and transparency of our government during this challenging time . the government of canada , along with provincial and territorial governments , have implemented exceptional workplace measures to curb the spread of covid-19 , and to protect the health and safety of federal employees . these measures have had an impact on institutions ' abilities to respond to access to information and personal information requests , since most employees are now working from their homes . mr. john brassard: frankly , i 'm surprised that the answer is coming from that minister when the minister of infrastructure and communities is in the house , but i will ask this question . can the minister tell canadians who pierre lavalle is ? hon. steven guilbeault: treasury board secretariat has provided guidance to institutions to continue to make the best efforts to respond to access to information act and privacy act requests and to provide published content the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister of infrastructure and communities tell us who pierre lavalle is ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. catherine mckenna (minister of infrastructure and communities): mr. chair , of course . pierre lavalle was the former ceo of the canada infrastructure bank . we are very proud that we now have michael sabia as the new chair of the infrastructure bank . he did a fabulous job in montreal at the chair: we 'll now go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can the minister tell me how long mr. lavalle was the ceo of the infrastructure bank ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i ca n't give you the exact months . he was the ceo of the canada infrastructure bank since the beginning , but let 's be clear : crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government and must have the chair: we 'll return to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: can i ask the minister how well she knows her file : 50 % , 75 % or 100 % ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , that 's quite a condescending little comment . i 'd like to say that i know my file very well . what i know is that canadians want infrastructure built , they want it built across the country , in the member opposite 's riding and in ridings across the country . they want cleaner , healthier , more connected some hon . members : hear , hear ! the chair: we 'll go back to mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: how much of the $ 35 billion of infrastructure money that was allocated to that bank has been spent so far ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , the infrastructure bank is a new , more flexible financing model for infrastructure investments . it was set up ; it is now in its new phase . we 're very excited that it 's going to be moving forwardand stay tuned . mr. john brassard: in the context of mr. duclos ' advice to his cabinet colleagues about openness and transparency , i 'd like to ask the minister how much mr. lavalle was paid annually . hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , as i said , crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation , but remuneration ranges are publicly available . i 'd note that this information for the bank 's ceos has been in the public domain the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , i 'm asking the minister how much mr. lavalle made . there was no answer to that . if it is in the public realm , she should know that . she said she knows her file very well . how much of a bonus was mr. lavalle paid recently when he left on april 2 ? hon. catherine mckenna: mr. chair , i am not involved in hr discussions when it comes to the canada infrastructure bank and mr. lavalle . crown corporations work at arm 's length from the government . they need to have flexibility to meet their commercial mandates . as i say , the information about salary ranges is publicly available , but personal hr the chair: mr. brassard . mr. john brassard: mr. chair , could you stop my ... ? i 'm hearing .... the chair: i would ask those of us virtually to mute . mr. brassard , there is about 15 seconds left . i 'll cue you for a very short question . mr. john brassard: thank you , mr. chair . according to a table , mr. lavalle could have received a bonus after year one of zero to 75 % of his base salary , which was $ 510,000 to $ 600,000 per year ; or in year two , which he was in , zero to 120 % of his base salary . how much of a bonus did he receive ? hon. catherine mckenna: the rate of any remuneration paid to the chief executive officer is based on the recommendations of the board . our government follows the privacy act and the access to information act when it comes to employee compensation . let me say this : we 're very excited about the new phase of the canada infrastructure bank . we have michael sabia there as the new board chair . we need to move forward on the chair: we 'll now continue with mr. chong . hon. michael chong (wellingtonhalton hills, cpc): thank you , chair . parliament 's now been suspended for three months , since friday , march 13. will the government commit to reopening the house of commons with its full powers , with social distancing , on monday , september 21 ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. pablo rodriguez (leader of the government in the house of commons): mr. chair , as my colleague knows , we 're meeting here four days a week , with questions on any topic for an hour and 35 minutes instead of 45 minutes a day . democracy is as important for us as it is for the opposition . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , this committee is neutered . it has no powers to introduce supply day motions , no powers to test government confidence , no powers to do the usual things that parliament does . at times of crisis , the bedrock principles of rule of law and democracy are tested , and our democratic principles are buckling under the pressure from this government . they came to office promising greater transparency , but they broke almost every one of their promises . they broke their promise on electoral reform . they appointed an anti-conservative organization , unifor , to the media bailout fund . in the last parliament , they tried to give the pmo control over this legislature in motion no . 6 , and in the last election , they rigged the leaders ' debates in their favour , and now they have suspended parliament . instead of this neutered committee that meets for only a few days with a few members , will the government commit to the full re-opening of this house with all its powers with social distancing on monday , september 21 ? hon. pablo rodriguez: mr.chair , the government 's objective is always to try to resume parliament as it was before . today , we have to live with this pandemic , but we will do everything we can to return to a normal situation as quickly as possible . that is clear and precise . the opposition asked for more time , especially to ask questions , and that is what it got . i would like my colleague to tell me one thing . over the past few weeks , we have sent suggestions to opposition members about the operation of parliament and they have never responded . i would like to know why . hon. michael chong: mr. chair , the full parliament with its full powers sat through two world wars , previous pandemics and the october crisis in 1970. the governments of those days did not seek the suspension of the house . the government is not only failing to defend democracy here but also abroad . it ca n't utter the word taiwan . it is failing to be strong and clear on hong kong and , while the situation today is not that of decades past , it is clear that canada in the past stood for the rights of people in hong kong . canada needs to take much stronger diplomatic action on hong kong . there are some 300,000 canadians living there , and they are looking for the government 's support . when will this government act ? when will it threaten economic sanctions like the u.s. administration has ? when will it provide asylum and a clear path to citizenship like the u.k. government has ? when will it speak up against the communist party of china 's united front workers operating here in this country ? when will it do like australia did in calling for an international investigation of covid-19 , and organize an international coalition of like-minded democracies to defend hong kongers and the violation of the sino-british treaty ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. franois-philippe champagne (minister of foreign affairs): mr. chair , i 'll remind the member to look at our statement of may 28. it 's already done . canada has spoken to the world ; canada has spoken up . we 've made a first declaration with our colleagues in australia and the u.k. to say that we have deep concerns . we all know that the one country , two systemsthe high degree of liberty and freedom enjoyed by the people in hong konghas made hong kong what it is today , a beacon when it comes to trade and financing . we know that and have expressed deep concern . again , on may 28 , with the united states , with the united kingdom and with australia , canada was front and centre in saying that we have deep concerns that the imposition of a national security law by beijing would undermine the very foundation , the very principles that have made hong kong so successful . we said that we and our international partners would look at the implications and the ramifications that this might have on our arrangement . i 've called for a meeting of our five eyes partners tonight . i 'll be chairing a meeting of our five eyes partners with the foreign ministers . we will be discussing it and will continue to raise our voices to stand up for the people of hong kong , and we will do it with our allies . the chair: we will now go to mr. maguire . mr. larry maguire (brandonsouris, cpc): mr. chair , farmers have contacted my office about the massive delays with processing the advance payment program loans . some put their applications in almost two months ago , and not a dollar has flowed . what 's the point of having an advance payment program if there 's no payment ? can the minister of agriculture tell us when these delays will end ? the chair: the honourable minister . hon. marie-claude bibeau (minister of agriculture and agri-food): mr.chair , i can assure you that we are working with all the independent operators . this program is not administered by their officials , but by partners . i can assure you that , under the circumstances , they are doing their best to make the advance payments mr. larry maguire: farmers understand that some of the delays were caused by staff having to work remotely . however , did the minister approve a policy change on april 1 that made the eligibility for these loans more difficult during the middle of a pandemic , yes or no ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , a number of changes and improvements have been made to the program . to make things easier for our administrators , we have postponed some of the changes that could have been problematic . mr. larry maguire: yes , so some of the changes made it more problematic for the producers . the minister must take responsibility for these delays . farmers deserve an answer on why she changed the program . who advised her that it would be a good idea to make it more difficult for the farmers to access the advance payment program in the middle of a pandemic ? or did she just go ahead and do this on her own ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we are constantly working with the administrators of the program . we are fully prepared to respond to their requests so that the advance payments program can best serve our producers across the country . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers are telling me that the premiums for the western livestock insurance program are too high . i told the minister of agriculture over two weeks ago that this was a problem , and yet she went out and said that farmers needed to make better use of existing support . when will the minister of agriculture listen to what the farmers are saying so they can actually use the existing programs ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , i would like to remind everyone that we have put in place certain measures to improve access to agristability . we have also significantly improved the agrirecovery program . over the past few years , this program amounted to about $ 15million . it is now $ 100million for pork and beef producers alone , not counting the $ 77.5million for food processors . mr. larry maguire: livestock producers in my riding and several across canada are still waiting for the minister of agriculture 's promise for an agrirecovery program . when will the minister of agriculture stop rubbing salt in the farmers ' wounds and provide the rest of the story she has been saying is on its way for over a month now in her agrirecovery promise ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , we have committed $ 50million to beef producers and $ 50million to pork producers through the agrirecovery program . here is how the program works : the federal government contributes up to60 % and then the provinces implement it how they see fit . mr. larry maguire: the funding announced by the minister of agriculture for the livestock industry was insufficient , and what was promised has not been delivered . this has caused hogs to be euthanized and over 100,000 feeder cattle to become overweight . the industry is in a crisis . how many livestock producers need to go bankrupt before they get the help they deserve ? hon. marie-claude bibeau: mr.chair , once again , we have significantly increased the amounts available through agrirecovery . it is $ 50million for beef producers and $ 50million for pork producers . these programs are administered by the provinces . there is also $ 77.5million for processors . the chair: ms.chabot , you have the floor . hon. dominic leblanc: mr.chair , we know that not everyone experiences economic recovery in the same way . in some sectors , such as tourism , fishery , hotels and restaurants , we do not know when activity will resume or whether it will resume slowly . this is a major concern for workers , because they do not know what will happen tomorrow . they do not know how much they will be able to earn this summer . given that the cerb lasts 16weeks , they are all afraid that they will be left with nothing . without a job , they have no income . will the minister of finance announce now that he is extending the cerb ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly at the early onset of the covid-19 pandemic to support workersthose who have lost their jobs , who were laid off , or those whose jobs simply disappearedthrough the canada emergency response benefit . it has provided immense support to the over eight million canadian workers who have applied to the cerb . we will continue to support those workers throughout the covid-19 pandemic period . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , my question was clear . we know why the cerb was put in place . it does not need to be explained to us again . for some workers , the cerb will end tomorrow morning . there will be no recovery in their sector . examples include bars , sports training , arts and culture . they do n't know when they will start up again . is the government prepared to extend the canada emergency response benefit now ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , the workers that the honourable member identified , including those who were not eligible for the ei , were also covered by the canada emergency response benefit . we moved quickly . we recognized the urgency of the situation , which is why we took action to support workers and their families through the canada emergency response benefit . we have processed over eight million applications through that benefit . we will continue to support canadian workers at this very difficult time . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , are we going to continue to help workers in these difficult times ? the answer is simple . some do n't know what they are going to do tomorrow morning . they do not know whether they will have an income to pay their bills . they have families , they have other needs . the cerb is going to end . this is the last period for some people . can you do anything about it ? can i walk out of the house today and tell all those people that the cerb is going to be extended ? hon. bill morneau (minister of finance): mr.chair , i would like to thank the honourable member for her question . we will clearly maintain our approach . we will look at how we can improve and change our programs , such as the wage subsidy . of course , we are looking at how we can gradually reopen our economy by continuing to help people to be in a good position . ms. louise chabot: mr.chair , we are making progress . yes , the decision is to extend the wage subsidy . i think we must do the same with the cerb , which is about to end . another important commitment is the employment incentives . i do n't know about you , but we see it in our ridings . people are scared because the economy is reopening in certain sectors . people are afraid to go back to work . people are afraid to go back to full-time jobs because they are afraid of losing all their emergency benefits . this affects workers and students alike . are you prepared to take action on this issue ? you have also promised to implement employment incentives . hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we know that , with a responsible reopening of the economy , we have to look at our programs to make sure that we are keeping and protecting people . that continues to be our approach . we will look at changes and improvements . in that way , we will continue our responsible reopening of the economy . the chair: we are going to take a break so that our employees can change shifts without jeopardizing their health . while we have a few seconds , i would also like to remind members to address their questions to the chair , not directly to the ministers . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton (simcoe north, cpc)): we 'll now carry on . we 'll go to mr. easter in malpeque . hon. wayne easter (malpeque, lib.): thank you , mr. chair . i 'll be splitting my time with the member for brampton north . today , june 1 , under the auspices of the food and agriculture organization , we celebrate world milk day . world milk day allows us to emphasize the importance of milk as a global food , its benefits for our health as well as our nutrition ; and to celebrate the dairy sector , from the primary producers to the processors who ensure that our many high-quality dairy products get to the marketplace . canadians are fortunate to have a thriving dairy sector that , under supply management , provides high-quality products at reasonable prices to consumers . even under supply management though , dairy farmers have found themselves facing difficult challenges as a result of recent trade agreements and sudden market shocks as a result of the pandemic . mr. chair , to acknowledge world milk day , i 'd love to be able to raise a glass of wholesome white or chocolate milk , but we ca n't do that . on the other hand , i must ask the minister of agriculture what the government is doing to support the dairy sector in these times so we can celebrate world milk day next year with more vim and vigour . hon. marie-claude bibeau: thank you , mr. chair . i would like to thank mr. easter , from the great riding of malpeque in prince edward island . today it is particularly important to thank families working on the 11,000 dairy farms across the country , caring for 1.4 million cows to produce each year more than 9.3 billion litres of milk of the highest quality . the dairy sector in canada is made up of more than 220,000 canadians and foreign workers who dedicate their lives to feed us . while our society lives through unprecedented changes , the dairy sector demonstrates its resilience and proves more than ever the value of the supply management system . it is why we increased by $ 200 million the borrowing capacity of the canadian dairy commission to improve its butter and cheese storage programs , giving the flexibility to manage the surplus of milk and support its mandate . over the past few years , we have invested in dairy farms and given direct compensation to dairy farmers through trade agreements with europe and asia . we will do the same for the new nafta . raise a glass for world milk day . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to ms. sahota in brampton north . ms. ruby sahota (brampton north, lib.): mr. chair , last week a horrific video surfaced showing the killing of an unarmed black man at the hands of the minneapolis police . george floyd 's death was the latest in a series of unwarranted deaths of black men and women at the hands of police . since his death , solidarity protests have erupted across cities in the united states and all over the world asking for justice and a stop to systemic dehumanization of black people . i wish i could say we are , but sadly we are not immune to the reality of what is happening south of the border . the same protests taking place in new york , philadelphia , los angeles , berlin , paris and london are also taking place in our own backyard . in cities like montreal and toronto , thousands of people have already taken to the streets , not only to decry anti-black racism but also to ask for tangible solutions to effectively combat anti-black racism . we do n't have to wait for pain , suffering and outrage to boil to the surface to act . there 's nothing we know today that we did n't already know . as canadians are demonstrating and calling on their society and governments to do better , can the minister of diversity and inclusion and youth tell us what this government is doing to address anti-black racism in canada and to ensure we are evening the playing field for black canadians ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. bardish chagger: mr. chair , the mp for brampton north is correct . anti-black racism , racism and discrimination are present in canada . with covid-19 , we have even seen a rise in anti-asian racism . we all must speak out against racism and discrimination . keeping silent is to condone these horrific acts . these acts do n't have to be violent or result in the loss of life to be wrong . in fact , the actions of amy cooper shone a light on the stealth racism that exists . we must acknowledge inequities in our institutions and in people 's lived experiences . if we as canadians truly desire an inclusive canada , every single one of us must step up , be an ally and do what we can to make workplaces , communities and public spaces safer . our government has started this work . the open , transparent , merit-based appointment process is resulting in decision-making tables better reflecting canadians . we recognize the un international decade for people of african descent ; the applications for capacity building in black canadian communities are being assessed ; the anti-racism secretariat is set up for canadians but also for government departments to improve their systems , including advancement opportunities ; and the recently announced immunity task force will provide disaggregated data to decision-makers because decisions need to be based on science and evidence . this work is by no means finished . although our government is moving in the right decision , there is clearly a lot more work to do and we are committed to doing that work with communities as allies , as partners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go to mr. duvall from hamilton mountain . mr. scott duvall (hamilton mountain, ndp): thank you , mr. chair . i will be splitting my time with the member for elmwoodtranscona . mr. chair , workers ' unions , business leaders and analysts across the country are raising a huge alarm over potential bankruptcies due to covid-19 . thousands of canadian workers are exposed and vulnerable . for years the government has promised to change the laws to protect workers from corporate bankruptcy , but has failed to deliver . will this government fix the law before more canadian workers lose their hard-earned pensions ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi (minister of labour): thank you , mr. chair . i 'd like to thank the member for hamilton mountain for that question and for his advocacy on this file . i remind the member that since 2015 one of our first initiatives was the repealing of bills c-525 and c-377 , which were anti-union legislation . since then , we 've implemented a number of measures to protect workers . we 've increased the wage earner protection program by extending it from four weeks to seven weeks . the member is well aware that in 2019 the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go back to mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: mr. chair , the changes the government made last year to bankruptcy insolvency laws were largely cosmetic and wo n't protect workers ' and pensioners ' livelihoods once bankruptcy hits . the government can protect severance , termination pay , pensions and benefits from corporate theft , but will they do it , yes or no ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we made a number of significant changes in budget 2019 , including that the process for the ccaa be more open and transparent . we mandated that those who are coming to the process have to be honest and truthful . one thing we heard in the consultations was the ability for courts to set aside executive bonuses , and we implemented all those changes because we want to continue to protect pensioners . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have time for a short question , mr. duvall . mr. scott duvall: thanks , mr. chair . the minister is n't answering the question . canadian workers are worried . this is about their livelihoods . will the government fix the lawsyes or noto protect workers ' and pensioners ' rights ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. filomena tassi: mr. chair , we have made amendments , and we are going to continue to make amendments . we want to absolutely ensure that pensions are protected . i look forward to working collaboratively with the member . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. blaikie , elmwoodtranscona . mr. daniel blaikie (elmwoodtranscona, ndp): thank you very much , mr. chair . twice , following negotiations with the ndp , the government has committed to provide direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities . i 'm wondering when those people can expect the government to announce the details of that assistance . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we are committed to advancing on the issues that have been identified by canadians with disabilities . we are continuing that engagement , and we will have more to say on that very soon . mr. daniel blaikie: i think that answer is entirely inadequate . i have a lot of sympathy for people across the country who are living with disabilities and are getting impatient with the fact that alongside its initial commitment to seniors , for instance , the government made a commitment to helping people living with disabilities with the same kind of direct financial assistance , and it has n't come . why has it taken so long for the government to get around to helping people who are in a crisis right now ? i want to know the reason why this has n't been announced yet . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we have established the covid-19 disability advisory group , comprising experts in disability inclusion . we 're moving forward with the canada emergency student benefit , which will provide $ 2,000 per month for eligible students with permanent disabilities . we are doubling the canada student grants for students with disabilities in the coming academic year . we have done a lot , but we will continue to do more , and we will have more to share on our continuing efforts to support persons with disabilities . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): go ahead , mr. blaikie . you have time for one short question . mr. daniel blaikie: their commitment was not around an advisory commitment . their commitment was for direct financial assistance to people living with disabilities who are facing additional costs because of the pandemic . they have committed twice and they have done nothing . when are they going to get around to it ? why should people living with disabilities have to wait any longer than they already have ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , that is precisely why we are listening closely to the covid-19 disability advisory group to get expert advice . we will have more to share . there is more work to come , and there will be results to be announced very soon . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. mclean , calgary centre . mr. greg mclean (calgary centre, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . according to la presse , federal cabinet ministers steven guilbeault , catherine mckenna and jonathan wilkinson have been handed responsibility for crafting an economic recovery plan that aims to accelerate the green shift . true to form , this cabal around the prime minister has declared let 's not let a good crisis go to waste . can the prime minister confirm that his ministers have been working with environmental lobby groups for further financial support to engineer canada 's economy post covid ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the honourable minister of middle class prosperity . hon. mona fortier (minister of middle class prosperity and associate minister of finance): mr. chair , our most urgent priority is covid-19 and the health and safety of canadians . as we support canadians through this time , we will also ensure our long-term economic , environmental and physical well-being . our government remains committed to building a stronger and more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable , prosperous future for our kids and grandkids . just like science is guiding us in our response to covid-19 , science will continue to guide us toward reduced pollution and in fighting climate change . mr. greg mclean: the task force for a resilient recovery was quoted as saying last week that they would have recommendations for government action available within eight weeks , notably eight weeks when parliament is , by this government 's design , absent . can the prime minister disclose to this committee how many meetings his 61 environmental activist advisers have had with the task force or its members ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , our most urgent priority with respect to covid-19 is the health and safety of canadians . while supporting canadians during this period , we must also ensure our economic , environmental and physical well-being in the long term . our government remains committed to building a stronger , more resilient economy to ensure a sustainable future for our grandchildren and children . mr. greg mclean: the task force is a who 's who of academics and bureaucrats , but surprisingly , includes no one from the productive part of the canadian economy . so much for pan-canadian input . the task force is reviewing work produced by smart prosperity , a government-funded institute whose membership overlaps with both the task force and the government 's own canadian institute for climate choices . this is a bureaucratic environmental ponzi scheme , with overlapping personnel and mandates . the only thing not overlapping is their funding . how many organizations does this government need to fund to recycle work produced by other redundant government-funded entities ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , our priority right now is the health and safety of canadians . just as science guides us in our response to covid-19 , it will continue to guide us in reducing pollution and fighting climate change . our priority is to support canadians during this period and we must also ensure our environmental , economic and physical well-being in the long term . mr. greg mclean: a notable member of the task force in question is one gerald butts . perhaps it 's just a coincidence , but can the prime minister confirm if this is the same gerald butts who was forced to resign as his principal secretary for his role in attempting to force canada 's then justice minister into breaking the law ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , since the beginning of this crisis , our priority has been to support canadians and their health and safety . we will continue to do so , because it is important that we get through this crisis by supporting canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who was paid $ 360,000 u.s. by an american-funded organization after he started working with the prime minister ? hon. mona fortier: once again , mr.chair , it is important to talk to canadians right now to tell them that we are putting their health and safety first . we will continue to do so . we are going through a crisis right now and we will support canadians . mr. greg mclean: mr. chair , is this the same gerald butts who , in his role as the principal secretary in the office of ontario 's then premier , advanced policies that now saddle ontarians with the highest energy costs in north america ? is this is the same gerald butts who weighed down ontario with the world 's highest subnational debt burden , all for the benefit of new green jobs that , notably , have never arrived ? hon. mona fortier: mr.chair , as we know , for the past two and a half months , we have been supporting canadians . we have put forward an economic program to help businesses , workers and canadians across the country . we will continue to make the health and safety of canadians a priority . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to the mp for west nova , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: yesterday , the minister responsible for tourism , acoa and official languages was happy to close our national tourism week by announcing investments of $ 70 million to offset financial losses in the tourism industry across canada . where 's the big clap ? some hon . members : hear , hear ! mr. chris d'entremont : there you go , give her a clap . more than $ 70 million will be invested to support this sector and promote canadian destinations . southern ontario received $ 30 million , northern ontario received $ 7 million and western canada received $ 3.5 million . there 's nothing for atlantic canada yet . knowing that we just had an announcement from the minister of transport that there will be no cruise ships in atlantic canada or anywhere in canada this year , resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars in losses , where is the program for atlantic canada ? hon. mlanie joly (minister of economic development and official languages): mr. chair , i commend my colleague for his important question . i know he 's a very strong advocate for the tourism sector in atlantic canada , so i want to reassure him . obviously , we want to support the tourism sector in atlantic canada . acoa has a clear direction to do just that . if he has any good ideas , please let him come forward and let 's have a conversation . meanwhile , atlantic canada will also be supported through destination canada . rather than doing marketing internationally , we will be supporting destination marketing organizations across the country , including in atlantic canada , to make sure that we launch this new movement to visit local . mr. chris d'entremont: that would be all great if we were n't in the middle of a pandemic and you ca n't even cross the nova scotia-new brunswick border without having to self-isolate for two weeks . it 's going to make travelling , through the maritimes at least , very difficult . in saint john , new brunswick , 79 cruise ships and more than 270,000 passengers will not be giving back to that local community . at home in nova scotia , it 's about 118 or 130 vessels . in terms of a minimum financial loss , $ 165 million will not be generated . there will be job losses and permanent closures of restaurants and boardwalk shops . prince edward island , which was expected to have a record attendance year , will lose visits of 97 ships and 154,000 passengers , and $ 60 million to the province 's economy will be lost . mr. chair , my question to the minister is this : who is acoa going to be working with , and what kinds of programs are going to be available to help them through this very difficult year ? hon. mlanie joly: i agree with my colleague . the sector is really impacted by the pandemic and the economic crisis . it is a bit like the canary in the coal mine ; it was the first impacted , and definitely it is still impacted . that 's why we are in close contact with tourism leaders and operators across the country . again , recently i had good conversations with the chambers of commerce all across atlantic canada , including hospitality newfoundland and labrador for the tourism sector . there is money for the tourism sector and tourism operators . they can have access to the wage subsidy . they wanted to have access to it until later in the summer , and it has been extended to the end of august . they have access to the rent relief program , the ceba and acoa funding . as mentioned many times in this chamber , mr. chair , if my colleague has clear examples to provide me , let 's work together . let 's make sure the money flows to these people , because they need it . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): you have only about a minute left , mr. d'entremont . mr. chris d'entremont: mr.chair , like the minister , last week , i spoke with simon-pierre poulin , the director of le franco newspaper in alberta , about the sauvons saint-jean movement . he asked me why we could not continue to work on official languages and on modernizing the act even though parliament is sitting in a different configuration . unfortunately , i had to explain to him that many restrictions were associated with the current format of this fake parliament . the pandemic is also threatening the protection of french in minority communities . the liberal government made a commitment to modernize the official languages act in the first six months of its mandate . how will it proceed ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that our two official languages are important and that , when it comes to language rights , we must always be on guard and protect what we have achieved . as for campus saint-jean , i am very aware of the issue . i had the opportunity to speak with my two counterparts in alberta late friday afternoon to tell them about our concerns and the need to protect the institution from drastic cuts . that was the first point . the second point is the modernization of the official languages act . i have the same concerns as my colleague . clearly , we must continue the conversations and find the right solutions . finally , we must be there to protect our language rights . if the member has good ideas , he can come to me to discuss them . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): the hon . member for chicoutimile fjord has the floor . mr. richard martel (chicoutimile fjord, cpc): mr.chair , some people for whom the 15weeks of sickness benefits were not enough before the covid-19crisis now have to exhaust their regular employment insurance benefits before they are entitled to the cerb . today , i would like to know whether they will be able to exhaust their weeks of eligibility for the cerb after october3 . hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we ensured that those who switched over to the canada emergency response benefit would be covered by it , whether they were ei eligible or not . we are committed to supporting all of the workers who have been impacted by the covid-19 pandemic . mr. richard martel: according to a survey conducted by the universit du qubec trois-rivires ' research institute on small and medium size businesses , the saguenaylac-saint-jean region would be the most affected by the economic effects of covid-19 . this is not surprising . in fact , in our region , the tourism industry generates more than $ 300million in economic activity , including $ 58million for the cruise industry alone . the $ 70million that you announced yesterday is a very modest start . what does the government intend to do for the tourism industry in the regions ? hon. mlanie joly: mr.chair , it goes without saying that the tourism industry is indeed very much affected . that is why we are responding to their concerns and worries . we have therefore extended the emergency wage subsidy until the end of august . we are also providing the canada emergency commercial rent assistance , as well as the $ 40,000loans from the canada emergency business account . we have also just announced $ 70million in support for canada 's tourism sector . i am having good talks with various stakeholders in quebec , including martin soucy from the alliance de l'industrie touristique du qubec . in addition , we are going to do our part to support the tourism sector through economic development canada . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , the tourism industry in the saguenaylac-saint-jean region is the sum of all its stakeholders . many of these businesses are too small to receive the assistance announced by the federal government . overly restrictive standards will prevent some tourist accommodation from welcoming guests this year , even though they will have to pay their bills every month . what does the government plan to do to help the regions most affected economically ? hon. mlanie joly: i thank my colleague for his important question . what he is describing is the reason we are currently working on a game plan . we really want to be able to reach these small businesses , of which there are many in saguenaylac-saint-jean , in quebec and across the country . that is why the prime minister and the minister of finance have committed an additional $ 1billion to help those businesses that fall through the cracks . we need to respond now , and i will have more to say about it in the next few days . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , i was very disappointed to see that we had lost asparagus crops due to a labour shortage . when i spoke with the blueberry growers in my area , they told me they were concerned that the same thing could happen to them . some employers to whom we granted summer positions are not finding students to fill them . when will there be incentives to encourage people to work rather than disincentives ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we believe that the flexibilities we have introduced to the canada summer jobs program will enable more employers to use it , including more businesses , as well as help young people to acquire the necessary skills and benefits from this really important program . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.martel , you have about a minute left . mr. richard martel: mr.chair , on may19 , the government said that it was studying several solutions to help business owners and entrepreneurs who operate their business using a personal bank account . when will the canada emergency business account be available to them ? hon. mary ng (minister of small business, export promotion and international trade): mr. chair , small businesses are the heart of all of our communities , and we 've been working really hard to help them . almost 650,000 small businesses have received the loan , which is really helping with those costs . we have more work to do to make sure that those other businesses also get access to this support . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll now go to mr. epp , the member for chatham-kentleamington . mr. dave epp: thank you , mr. chair . i wish to congratulate my colleague , cathy mcleod . on tuesday , may 26 , she gained a new resident when brinnley lisette huby was born to parents adam and carina huby . carina is my daughter , and that makes brinnley my first grandchild and presently my favourite newest canadian . all are healthy , and i thank god for brinnley 's healthy arrival . some honourable members : hear , hear ! mr. dave epp : minister jordan , the freshwater fish marketing corporation is allowed access to the seafood stabilization fund , while you deny its competitor , our ontario fisheries that fish on the great lakes , the similar right to apply . minister , why ? hon. bernadette jordan (south shorest. margarets, lib.): mr. chair , i want to thank my colleague for the very good question . the ontario inland fishers and the people in ontario are eligible for other programs that are offered through the regional development agencies . we are going to make sure that no industry is left behind when it comes to our fisheries . we 're making sure that we 're addressing the concerns of inland fisheries as well as coastal fisheries . those programs will be available to anyone who needs to apply through the rdas . mr. dave epp: minister , will you then direct these regional agencies to provide equitable funding equivalent to the seafood stabilization fund ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 're making sure that they have the same access to programs through the regional development agencies as there is through the seafood stabilization fund . we 're making sure that everyone who is in need of support through the programs will be able to access it . mr. dave epp: according to stats canada , before my granddaughter turns one year old , her share of the federal debt will be over $ 39,000 . what is minister morneau 's fiscal plan for canada so that the interest on this debt does n't cripple canada with higher taxes ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , we realize that it 's always important to be responsible from a fiscal standpoint . we believe that the responsible approach today is to make investments to support canadians and to support businesses . in that way we can have jobs and we can get through this pandemic and have a strong economy and be able to continue with our approach to managing our economy in a responsible the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: minister , when can parliament , or this semblance of it , see that plan for economic prosperity ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i would like to remind honourable members to direct their questions through the chair . the honourable minister may reply . hon. bill morneau: thank you , mr. chair . we 've been quite clear that we need to be transparent on a daily basis by giving canadians an understanding of the investments that we 're making through this pandemic . once the situation is more stable economically , we will certainly be coming forward with a broader plan . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , the canadian chamber of commerce said three months before the pandemic that this current government 's level of spending and incurring of debt is untenable and that future generations , like my granddaughter , will have to pay for it . how much more debt is the minister planning to incur ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , coming into this pandemic in a strong fiscal position with the lowest amount of debt among the g7 countries is a function of our economy that 's afforded us the opportunity to invest on behalf of canadians . we will continue to take that approach . we believe that 's the responsible thing to do through the course of this challenge . mr. dave epp: what is the budget for stopping illegal american guns from getting through our borders ? hon. marc garneau (minister of transport): mr. chair , i thank the member for the question . i can tell you that we have invested considerable amounts of money and have earmarked ongoing monies to ensure that we address the issue of illegal guns passing across the border . we realize the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 'll go back to mr. epp . mr. dave epp: what 's the budget , then , to fight government-trained and licensed canadians in the court challenge that 's now been triggered ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we will go to the honourable minister . we 're not getting any audio . mr. dave epp: i have a point of order , mr. chair . could i have some more time , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): yes . we 're just going to hold time here momentarily , mr. epp . hon. marc garneau: i apologize , mr. chair . could i ask for the question to be repeated , please ? the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. epp , what is your question again ? mr. dave epp: what is the budget for fighting the government-trained and licensed people who are now triggering a lawsuit against your order in council ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i do n't have the answer to that question , but obviously the government will defend its position . mr. dave epp: mr. chair , covid-19 has exacerbated the problem of this government 's policy of spending the cupboards bare in good times instead of planning for a rainy dayand folks , we 're in a storm . unlike this government , municipalities can not by law say put it on the tab for the next generation . the balanced budget requirements force them to choose between slashed services and drastic tax hikes . the federation of canadian municipalities says they need $ 10 billion in targeted emergency operating funding , so do municipalities slash services , do they raise taxes , or will we be there for the municipalities ? hon. chrystia freeland: our government absolutely understands the crucial role municipalities play as the engine of our economy at all times , and particularly today , as in many parts of the country we are looking to restart the economy . that is why the prime minister announced just this morning that we will be accelerating payments under the gas tax fund . municipalities will receive the full amount of their 2020-21 payment on june 10. this will help them with some of their near-term liquidity issues . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to mr. manly , the member for nanaimoladysmith . mr. manly , go ahead . mr. paul manly (nanaimoladysmith, gp): thank you , mr. chair . the canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is not helping enough small businesses . many landlords do not want to take part in the program . small businesses are requesting that they be able to apply without the landlord 's participation . many small businesses do not meet the 70 % income-loss threshold . many did their best to keep employees engaged and tried hard to not lose clients , as the government urged them to do . they are , in fact , being penalized for that effort . thousands of business owners across the country will not be able to pay their rent today and risk closing permanently . will the government push the provinces to include an eviction moratorium during the pandemic and make this commercial rent assistance program more flexible to ensure small businesses can survive ? hon. bill morneau: mr. chair , i 'd like to thank the honourable member for the question , which recognizes the very serious challenge that many small businesses are facing during the course of this pandemic . we know that the programs we 've put forward , programs like the emergency business account , are supporting businesses , but the emergency rent approach , on which we 've worked together with provinces , can also help significantly . we are seeing a significant number of landlords and tenants coming forward with this and taking this up . i would encourage landlords to use this program , which is supporting them . of course , the suggestion from the member that provinces take action in restricting evictions is one that i 've been speaking about to ministers of finance from the provinces over the course of the last couple of months . this is an area of provincial jurisdiction . we are supportive and working hard to make sure this program works . mr. paul manly: mr. chair , this week marks the 31st anniversary of the tiananmen square massacre , and we are currently seeing repression of the democracy movement in hong kong . we know that communist china oppresses minority groups and does not respect human rights . in spite of this knowledge , the harper conservative government signed a lopsided and anti-democratic investment treaty with china in 2012 , the canada-china fipa . this conservative deal gave chinese state-owned corporations extraordinary powers to challenge our democratic decisions through a secretive private tribunal system . in the years since the fipa was signed , with no vote in parliament , chinese state-owned corporations have been purchasing canadian assets and resources . these corporations can seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers for the loss of potential profit when our laws and policies get in the way of their profit-taking . can the government tell us whether any of these chinese corporations has threatened to use the anti-democratic investor-state provisions of the fipa to seek financial compensation from canadian taxpayers ? hon. franois-philippe champagne: as i 'm sure the member will know , canada is setting up with its allies around the world to protect the freedom and democracy that has been enjoyed by the people in hong kong . as he knows , we have issued a declaration with a number of allies we have called upon to make sure that measures remain in place to protect the freedom and liberty of the people of hong kong . we know that the one country , two systems treaty system has provided the framework under which the people of hong kong have been able to create an economy that is resilient and has made hong kong a place where people want to do business , commerce and trade . mr. chair , we have expressed our deep concern . i would refer the member to the joint statement we have issued with the united states , australia and the united kingdom . we have spoken with one voice and we have said we have deep concerns that the actions by beijing , if they were to proceed with this national security law unilaterally , would undermine the bedrock of what has made hong kong , and that we will review the impact that the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr. manly , you have about 45 seconds left . go ahead ; there 's time for a short question . mr. paul manly: that was a trick question , because this anti-democratic agreement states that we would n't be able to have permission to disclose that information if there was , in fact , an investor-state dispute . unlike nafta , which had a six-month period for renegotiation , the harper conservatives locked us into a 15-year agreement with the fipa and this anti-democratic agreement . will the government re-engage the special committee on canada-china relations so we can do a thorough investigation of this conservative sellout of canadian democracy the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we are out of time , mr. manly . we 'll go to the minister for a response . hon. mary ng: thank you , mr. chair . canada will always pursue trade in the interest of canadians , and we are in the process of reviewing our fipa agreements so those agreements can provide the right framework for canadians to trade , with the interests of canadians always top of mind . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to ms. ashton in churchillkeewatinook aski . ms. ashton , go ahead with your question . ms. niki ashton (churchillkeewatinook aski, ndp): mr. chair , i 'll be splitting my time with the member for victoria . my question is to the minister of fisheries . this pandemic has hit canadians hard . import markets for our fish have dried up . this is devastating for inland fisheries . the season opened last week , and fishers are desperate for support . for indigenous fishers , fishing sustains their communities . it is their way of life . will the government work with the freshwater fish marketing corporation and inland fishers to develop and facilitate the delivery of an emergency package that works for them and find ways to redirect product to domestic markets , including communities facing food insecurity now ? hon. bernadette jordan: mr. chair , we 've recognized how hard the pandemic has hit our fishers and our fishing sector . we 've made available a number of different measures . one of the things we 're doing primarily is the harvesters ' benefit , which allows all harvesters to take advantage of a benefit as well as a grant contribution to help them get through . we 're also changing ei so they can now qualify for their ei benefits based on previous seasons , not this one , recognizing they 're going to face challenges this year . the freshwater fish marketing board is a crown corporation . we know it 's been a very difficult time for them . we are continuing to look at ways we can address the challenges within the industry and we 'll continue to work with them to make sure we are addressing those needs . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. ashton , we have about one minute left . there 's time for a short question . go ahead . ms. niki ashton: my question is to the minister of transport . canadians are being ripped off by airlines that are refusing to give passengers their money back . airlines are profiting off canadians during a very desperate time . this government has sat by while the canadian transportation agency issued a statement to back up the airlines ' appalling actions . what is this government doing to fix this ? why are n't they ensuring that public funds involve reimbursing passengers and an equity stake for canadians ? hon. marc garneau: mr. chair , i certainly recognize the very difficult situation and the frustration of canadians who would have preferred a refund . at the same time , at this point if airlines were required to immediately reimburse all the cancelled tickets , it would have a devastating effect on the airlines . that is why the canadian transportation agency , which is an independent body , recommended that vouchers be issued and that they have a reasonable time to be usedtwo years . it is also very important to bear in mind that as we begin to exit this pandemic , we must still have an airline industry in this country . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): now we 're going to the honourable member for victoria , ms. collins . please go ahead . ms. laurel collins (victoria, ndp): mr. chair , in victoria housing and homelessness were at a crisis point long before the pandemic hit , but now people are particularly vulnerable to covid-19 . if you do n't have a place to live , you do n't have the luxury of following public health advice and staying home . as part of the recovery , will this government be increasing funding to build or buy the housing needed to address homelessness ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , very early in the response to the covid-19 pandemic , our government provided $ 157.5 million directly to 51 community entities to respond directly to the needs of homeless canadians . we also provided $ 50 million in additional money to women 's shelters . we are continuing with the national housing strategy . we are providing supports to communities and ngos , as well as municipalities that are moving projects forward . ms. laurel collins: mr. chair , the federal government allocated just $ 1.3 million in reaching home funds to my region . while the province has stepped up , it cost them $ 18.5 million to purchase just one hotel in victoria . the federal funding is clearly inadequate . is the government going to show some leadership and at least match the provincial funds ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , we moved very quickly . the $ 157.5 million , i must note , was additional money on top of the base funding that we provide every year to address the needs of canada 's most vulnerable . in addition to that , our projects under the national housing strategy are continuing . we are providing leadership . we are trusting the community entities to make the decisions on where the funding goes and to respond in a way that meets the the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): ms. collins , you have about 40 seconds left , which is time for a short question . go ahead . ms. laurel collins: the minister mentioned the national housing strategy . this government 's national housing strategy reduces the level of targeted funding for lower-income households , according to the parliamentary budget officer . my question is simple : coming out of the pandemic in the coming months , is the government going to increase housing funding to address the immediate need , yes or no ? hon. ahmed hussen: mr. chair , i disagree with the honourable member . our money is targeted to communities . they have community advisory boards that decide how to spend the money . if the ndp does not trust local communities to make decisions , they should say so . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): i now invite the hon . member for joliette , mr.ste-marie , to take the floor . go ahead , mr.ste-marie . mr. gabriel ste-marie (joliette, bq): thank you , mr.chair . regardless of the covid-19 pandemic , the last time i checked , we still had a democratic system and the government had to remain accountable . the government needs to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . does the government intend to extend the measures over the summer ? if so , how will it do so ? the government must also present its working scenarios for the economic recovery . the government needs to be transparent . when will the government provide its economic update ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to thank the hon . member for his questions . i agree , it is very important to be transparent and to provide the necessary information to canadians . every day , we announce measures , of course , but also the cost of the measures and the amount of the investments . it is very important . the challenge at the moment is the economic situation , which is very fluid . when the situation is more stable , we will have the opportunity to give an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: in my opinion , mr.chair , it will really be too late to do the economic update when things are more stable . we have been asking for an economic update for the past month . even the parliamentary budget officer has been urging the government to table an economic update in a timely manner . with only three weeks left in the house before the summer , the clock is ticking . the quebec government will table its economic update later this month . will the federal government follow suit ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , let me confirm that we will continue to be transparent about the investments ; it is very important . of course , each day we work to make sure we have a solid grasp of the economic situation . as i said , when the situation is a little more stable , we will have the opportunity to explain our situation with an economic update . mr. gabriel ste-marie: once again , mr.chair , when the situation is more stable , it will be too late to do an economic update ; instead we will have to table a budget with the recovery in mind . speaking of the recovery , the parliamentary budget officer is surprised that the government is calling on the private sector for ideas for its recovery plan . mr.giroux points out that this government has thousands of public servants with very good ideas , and he adds that the government can also ask for the opposition parties ' views . that would be a very good idea . why is the government contracting out the development of its recovery plan to the private sector ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , i would like to tell the hon . member that it is important to listen to what we are trying to do , and to listen to people 's ideas and opinions , not only in parliament , but also from our society . so we keep listening . of course , with our approach , we will address the economic recovery in a way that will ensure we can maintain our very strong position . mr. gabriel ste-marie: mr.chair , we are still surprised that the government has contracted out its recovery plan to the private sector . the sooner the government tables its recovery plan , the better . businesses and individuals would start gaining confidence in the economy again . it would help them to loosen the purse strings and be assured that there will be economic life after the pandemic . again , that is what the parliamentary budget officer says . can the government tell us when it will table its recovery plan ? hon. bill morneau: mr.chair , we feel it is very important to consider what we need to do in each phase of our recovery . at this time , it is necessary to consider the public health situation and the gradual reopening of our economy . that is why we feel our approach aims for a safe recovery . obviously , by gathering more information in phase3 , we will be able to consider more than one approach to recovery . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): mr.ste-marie , you have about 30seconds left . mr. gabriel ste-marie: thank you . i understand that the exact date for tabling the recovery plan may be difficult to determine at this time . can the minister tell us whether he currently intends to table the recovery plan in a month ending in ber ? if not , will it be before or after that ? hon. bill morneau: we continue to work with the provinces on an approach to determine the timing of the recovery , and we are also listening to our colleagues in parliament , of course . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): we 're now going to the honourable member for abbotsford , mr. fast . hon. ed fast (abbotsford, cpc): thank you , mr. chair . the prime minister continues to pander to the communist regime in china . we were shocked to hear that his own minister of digital government used wechat , a chinese social media site , to raise funds to sue a global news reporterfor what ? it was for daring to expose china 's attempt to hoard ppe during the covid crisis . is it the practice of the government to support lawsuits against canadian reporters who challenge the hostile actions of the regime in china , and will the prime minister now condemn the actions of the digital government minister ? hon. steven guilbeault: mr. chair , we value the important work of media across the country and the world . attacking the integrity of hard-working journalists is not acceptable . as many members on all sides of the house know , wechat is a social media platform used to engage and share information with the chinese-canadian community . participation in this group , much like facebook , is guided by posted guidelines and a disclaimer . in this case , the individual who violated the guidelines of the group is no longer a part of that group . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , canadians have no reason to trust the prime minister on anything to do with china , especially when it comes to trade policy . two and a half years ago , the prime minister travelled to china to commence free trade negotiations , and the talks ended up in complete failure and embarrassment . still the prime minister continues to cozy up to the chinese regime , refusing to ban huawei from our 5g network or to speak out convincingly against china 's oppression in hong kong . meanwhile , the two michaels are continuing to languish in chinese jails . this is the kind of partner the prime minister wants to negotiate a trade agreement with . can the minister tell us whether at any time during the last six months the prime minister or anyone else in his government has had discussions with china about a free trade agreement ? a simple yes or no will do . hon. mary ng: mr. chair , as you know , canada has a complex and multi-dimensional relationship with china . canada will continue to engage with china with eyes wide open . any work that we do on trade and on all matters will always be in the interests of canadians first . hon. ed fast: i think canadians will see that the minister did n't even answer a simple yes-or-no question , so i 'll ask her a simpler yes-or-no question . is she or anyone else in her government presently discussing or negotiating a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , we will always do our work , including any discussions on trade and indeed all of our work , with the interests of canadians and canadian businesses as our absolute top priority . hon. ed fast: again , there was no answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister now assure canadians that she and the prime minister 's government will not negotiate a free trade agreement with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: any work that we do will always be guided by the best interests of canadians and canadian businesses . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i am just flabbergasted . this minister has been asked three times if the government is negotiating a trade agreement . she refuses to answer , so i 'll try again . will the minister tell us why she thinks negotiating a trade agreement with a hostile country like china is in canada 's best interests ? hon. mary ng: mr. chair , i thank the honourable member for the question . the answer is no . hon. ed fast: mr. chair , i just want to make sure . free trade is a good thing when it takes place between like-minded countries that embrace free market principles and apply the rule of law . china is not such a country . in fact , china repeatedly flouts international trade rules , illegally dumps underpriced goods into canada , and prevents canadian canola , beef and pork from entering china . is has also jailed canadians without due process . will the minister now assure us that our government will not negotiate any free trade agreements with china , yes or no ? hon. mary ng: we are not in discussions with china on a free trade agreement , and as my colleagues , including the prime minister and the foreign minister , have said many times in this house and outside of this house , our priority continues to be the immediate release of canadians detained in china . we will always work in the interests of canadians and canadian businesses . that is what we will always do . the acting chair (mr. bruce stanton): this will conclude today 's sitting of the special committee on the covid-19 pandemic . therefore this committee stands adjourned until tomorrow at noon .

the opposition party stressed that the government needed to present a picture of the economic situation and a picture of its overall emergency measures . the minister explained that they felt that it was very important to consider what that need to do in each phase of the recovery . thus , they would not announce an overall recovery plan any sooner .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

a curriculum reform was to carry out throughout wales . the group discussed with estyn about the obstacles and difficulties faced by secondary schools when bringing the reform into practice , such as teacher shortage and lack of funds , and how estyn tackled them . then the council questioned estyn over their inspection over local authorities ' educational services including regional consortia and independent schools . in addition , the group also talked about specific skill development of literacy and numeracy , concluding that literacy should be the top priority of the progress . they also dug into concerns regarding students ' economic background and the schools ' ability to care for students ' mental well-being .

summarize the difficulties carrying out the curriculum reform faced by secondary school . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

first of all , although a number of primary schools have surplus funds , still a lot of secondary schools are in deficit and low on funds . also recent years have seen a shortage of teachers with appropriate initial teacher training . there are concerns as well that schools in the bottom layer may find it difficult to adapt to the new curriculum and have little improvement on teaching quality .

what did meilyr rowlands think of the shortage of teachers ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

meilyr rowlands thought it was a challenge to recruit new teachers and improve the initial training.in the long term , he believed that education should become more attractive for young people and more mature people to go into , while in the short term , looking at initial teacher training would be the top priority .

what did meilyr rowlands say about the additional challenge for secondary schools ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

the children in secondary schools themselves are older and therefore have greater challenges . as a result , it 's also more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children .

what was sian gwenllian 's concern about the schools in the bottom layer ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

there were 12 percent of secondary schools under estonian review and 11 percent of them were in special measures . he worried that these schools lacked enough support and fundings to adapt to the new curriculum reform and face greater difficulties .

what did jassa scott talk about the work of regional consortia ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

jassa scott believed they had prioritized the work that schools were doing around literacy and numeracy , yet the support for schools to develop digital competence were a bit weaker . also their support for secondary schools had less impact across the consortia than for primary schools .

what did jassa scott and janet finch-saunders agree on the priority of the inspections ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

they agreed that the first area they would look specifically at would be the work of consortia to support curriculum work . local government legislation were also under debate , which was an opportunity to adapt the inspection to look specifically at their work .

what did claire morgan talk about the skill development in early year settings ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

she held the view that children aged 3-5 were often introduced to things too early when they 're not at that developmental stage . as a result , in the long term children would lose confidence with a lot of negative impressions .

what was the top priority in skills developing , according to meilyr rowlands ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone . welcome to the children , young people and education committee this morning . i 've received no apologies for absence . can i ask members if there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay , thank you . item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on estyn 's annual report 2018-19. i 'm very pleased to welcome meilyr rowlands , her majesty 's chief inspector , estyn ; jassa scott , strategic director at estyn ; and claire morgan , strategic director at estyn . thank you all for attending . we 're looking forward to hearing what you 've got to say . we 'll go straight into questions from suzy davies . suzy davies am: bore da . good morning , everybody . thank you for the papers upfront , in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system , looking forward , of course is the curriculum and the change that that 's bringing . how can we be sure that , during this period of change , standards do n't slip ? and also , from the point of view of scrutiny , will we be back in a situation where we 're being told , 'you ca n't compare one set of results against the previous year 's results , because of the nature of the change ' ? meilyr rowlands: bore da , bawb . thank you for the invitation to come here . i think that 's a good question . i think any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it , particularly if those changes were made too quickly . i think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now , so i think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping . we 've seen small incremental improvements . so , overall , i think we can be fairly confident that standards wo n't slip during this period of preparation . suzy davies am: can i just ask : is that based on your evidence around primary schools , where the sort of ethos that we 've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase ? meilyr rowlands: the track record i 'm talking about is across the board , so it 's very difficult to think of anything that 's actually got worse over the last three or four years , so it 's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping . it might not be improving as quickly as we would like , but the purpose of major curriculum and , more generally , educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement . i think we should congratulate the profession for the work they 've been doing . a large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work , as well as doing the day job . i think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform , and engagement with wider education reform , is to be congratulated . so , i think going forward , we must make sure that that is continued ; that this process that 's called co-construction—engaging with the profession , making sure that they 're behind all the changes—continues . i think that 's what 's going to make sure that we do n't see any slippage . suzy davies am: okay , and on that point of comparing year on year , we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then ? meilyr rowlands: yes , certainly , in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work , yes . suzy davies am: okay . that 's great , thank you . can i just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools , which i 've just mentioned previously , and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools on that as well ? because we 're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds , sometimes that 's because of end of year additional funds just being magicked up , but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that , overall , secondary schools are in deficit . is there a correlation between those two positions , that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum . i think that 's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum . with any sort of education reform , you 've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand , and on the other hand you need time to pilot things , to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there 's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth . so , we 've got to get that balance right . suzy davies am: sorry , that could be difficult to do if a school does n't have money to create that space , could n't it ? meilyr rowlands: yes . you raised two issues , i think . one , about the difference between primary and secondary : i think what i 'm saying there is i think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary , but it 's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is a recognition of that difference . in terms of funding , probably everyone in this room , and certainly me included , would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that . but , you know , that is a decision for local and central government to decide how much they can afford . i think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time . suzy davies am: can i ask , just to keep it on track , are you finding that that 's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum ? meilyr rowlands: i do n't think you can make that straightforward correlation . but if you do look at surpluses and reserves , they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time , but they have declined for secondary schools . so , i think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because , overall , they 're in deficit now . so , i think there is an argument for looking at that . the other thing that 's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage . so , you know , if you have a large school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant , it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school . but also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they 're looking at these financial and staffing issues . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . siân might develop that a little bit further on . the final question from me is : there 's a general concern about the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment , particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well . how do you think we can improve that ? what impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this ? meilyr rowlands: obviously , the most important resource for the education system is the teachers . so , it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit . and we 're not seeing them hit , if i remember correctly , even in primary , let alone secondary . so , there is a challenge , and i think we 've got to look at this in the round . we 've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this . so , long term , we 've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into . so , that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being . i think there 's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda , that people need to take that seriously , and there 's work going on regarding the workload issue . suzy davies am: i suppose what i 'm coming to , and i will finish with this , chair , is , we 're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit of continuous professional development—let 's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they 've barely got time for lunch as it is . do you think that 's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this , albeit that there 'll be a phasing in ? meilyr rowlands: yes . i think it will have an effect , but i think it 'll have a positive effect . i think the new curriculum , one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession . it gives back agency and ownership to teachers . i think it 's really important . and one of the reasons why teaching maybe has n't been that attractive a profession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum , and now they 've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach . so , i think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession . there are short-term things we need to do , of course , as well . i think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching , so i welcome some of the part-time open university courses , for example . so , there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary , particularly in welsh-medium , where there 's a shortage . so , all those kinds of varied routes , i think , into teaching , are important as well . suzy davies am: degree apprenticeships , potentially . meilyr rowlands: yes , i think it 's well worth exploring that . yes . suzy davies am: lovely . thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: okay . siân gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern . siân . sian gwenllian am: yes . just before going on to that , just to pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training . has estyn done any themed work on that particular issue , or do you intend to do anything on that ? also , looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in england , for example ; do we need , perhaps , to think about financial incentives , not just for specific subjects , but for going to schools where there are particular issues , perhaps ? meilyr rowlands: well , yes , there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the government about working in those early years for teachers . it 's possible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that . i know that professor mick waters is looking at this currently , and we 've had the discussion with him . and i think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period . now , we are , of course , looking at initial teacher training , but we have n't looked at the first couple of years for many a year . sian gwenllian am: right , thank you very much . and for your information , i 've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue , and that work will be published in due course . so , i hope to have a discussion with you about that . meilyr rowlands: thank you very much . yes . sian gwenllian am: in terms of the secondary schools , that ’ s where the problem lies , isn ’ t it , rather than the primary sector . how much of a concern is it to you that children ’ s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50 , and that , indeed , over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under estyn review ? how much of a concern is that to you ? meilyr rowlands: well , it is of concern to us , of course . i hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in wales , because there are a number of good things we can report also . the primary sector , the special sector , post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well , and i think a story that 's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving . we have seen examples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year , and we 've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools , which is also a sector— . because these are two sectors where there are very , very vulnerable children in attendance . so , i think that 's very encouraging . but , you 're right , of course , the biggest concern for the system , i would say , is secondary schools , and that is an issue of leadership , and also of the quality of the teaching and learning . those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports . so , i believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution , as i mentioned previously , and also a short-term solution to this problem . in the long term , to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well , that ’ s the main aim of the new curriculum . so , i am confident that that strategy is the right strategy . it will take time , as we mentioned previously ; it will take longer in secondary schools , and that 's for a number of reasons , and i have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools in previous annual reports . so , there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult , possibly , than primary schools . the children themselves are older and they have greater challenges . life is more complicated for them , possibly . it ’ s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children , and that ’ s an important factor . that ’ s one of the reasons why i believe it ’ s important that we do have community schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school ’ s life and take an interest in the education of their children . we also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools ’ mindsets , and , in some cases , perhaps excessively so . so , we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum , and , of course , qualifications wales is carrying out that work currently . and also , we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools ’ successes . now , there is work ongoing on that as well . but there are all kinds of variations and differences between the primary and secondary sectors . in primary schools , for example , the greatest and most obvious difference , i would say , is that you ’ ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year , and that teacher can identify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time , getting to know the child and , possibly , the family very well . it ’ s much more complicated for secondary school to do that ; there have to be systems put in place for that . so , there are many long-term things that we need to respond to . but in the short term , what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support , and that is why i am glad and do welcome what 's being piloted currently , which is a system of supporting these schools , the multi-agency approach , that is . so , that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time and piloted ourselves a few years ago . so , i 'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout wales . i believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme . sian gwenllian am: you said previously that it 's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough . are there signs that that 's improving ? meilyr rowlands: well , one of the things that 's very positive about this pilot scheme is that it 's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme , that is , the schools that we have identified , through inspections , as needing to be put in a statutory category . so , there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern . i believe that it 's fair to say that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet . i think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about to arrive in relation to that , and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents , staff leaving , a change in leadership . we use surveys with the children , for instance , and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties . so , there 's not one single criteria alone that will tell you , 'this is a school that is at risk of causing concern ' , but taken together , having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools , i believe . sian gwenllian am: okay . well , we 'll be coming on to that middle tier later on , and perhaps that 's where the problem lies , namely that if there is n't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves , perhaps that 's where the focus needs to be . meilyr rowlands: i would say that it 's not the identification of the schools that is the greatest problem . the greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support , where all the agencies that support these schools are working together . sian gwenllian am: well , how long does it take , therefore , for a school to move from an improvement category , in terms of special measures , to be escalated then ? because one sees sometimes that there 's an excellent school , and within five years ' time , it 's in the red . so , there 's a great deal of variance in that . meilyr rowlands: well , that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red . sian gwenllian am: yes , well , gradually , perhaps . meilyr rowlands: yes . perhaps claire can respond to this . claire morgan: on average , secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years , on average . some are shorter ; some are quite a considerable amount longer . it 's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement . with primary schools , of course , it 's much shorter because the issues are far less complex ; it 's easier to bring about improvements in teaching . when you 've got large numbers of staff , you 've got large secondary schools , it takes time to actually bring about those improvements , but it is a long time , just over two years , when you think that some pupils , maybe in key stage 4 for the two years— . certainly , we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker , and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step . all partners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards . they focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest , and it is the responsibility of everybody involved—that is : ourselves , the regions , local authorities , the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement . so , it 's getting an agreement on what the issues are , and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication , but that we support the school in the areas they need more support . and we hope that this then will accelerate the improvement of the schools that find themselves in category . but , as meilyr already said , there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern . so , the pilot is trying out those two different approaches as well . sian gwenllian am: okay , thank you . and just finally from me , for the time being at least , the financial situation ; we 've spoken about that already this morning . if you could— . if funding was injected into the system tomorrow , say , what would you spend it on ? what aspects would benefit from that additional funding ? meilyr rowlands: were you asking about something specific there ? sian gwenllian am: in the schools themselves , if you were a school leader , what would you— meilyr rowlands: oh , if i were a school leader . sian gwenllian am: yes . how would you use any additional funding that would flow into the school ? meilyr rowlands: it 's difficult to make that decision , because every school is different . it is important , of course , that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves . but , certainly , in the short term , the type of thing i would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum . that means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them . the schools that have been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they 've had plenty of time to think about this . so , it 's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—for every school in wales to start to think . because i think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools . but that means that time is needed for schools to think this through and , in that thinking , to contact the community , to talk to their children as well , to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum , because it 's up to every school . although the new curriculum sets a framework , it is up to each and every school to decide what they 're going to teach , and what they 're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this new world that we have in the twenty-first century . therefore , to give you a somewhat superficial answer , i would be setting time aside for the training of teachers . jassa scott: can i just add one thing there ? i think what we 've seen over the years recently is that local authorities , to some extent , have safeguarded the funding that goes to the schools , but the effect of that is that we 've seen less funding going into some of the local authority services ; for example , those services that support well-being , that promote attendance , and that perhaps support behaviour and assistance for schools . so , i think that all of those factors contribute to how schools can support and assist their pupils , and to improve themselves . so , i think that side of things is important as well—in the school or in the local authority , if funding is available , it should be allocated to all of those things so that those services can also support the children to succeed . sian gwenllian am: thank you . lynne neagle am: just before we move on to the middle tier , if i can just ask about the quality of teaching ? there 's been a consistent message from estyn that that is the weakest part of the system in wales . the government recognises that and has invested a very significant amount of money in that area , yet it 's still an issue again in your annual report . you have n't said whether it 's getting better or going in the right direction . what is your assessment of whether we are seeing the improvements we need to see in the quality of teaching ? meilyr rowlands: i think , in nearly all the elements of our framework , the picture is fairly similar . so , in terms of quality of teaching , we have seen gradual but quite small-scale improvements in primary . so , you can feel that that is going in the right direction . in secondary , it 's more or less level ; we have n't seen it getting particularly better or particularly worse . one of the things that 's really important to realise is that the curriculum is about the quality of teaching . it is about the teaching and learning ; those are two sides of the same coin , if you like . what 's important is the learning experience that our pupils get in school . from the perspective of the pupil , it 's the learning ; from the perspective of the teacher , it 's the teaching . they are two sides to the same coin . i think there 's no doubt and i think there 's general agreement that , in order to have a step change in the quality of teaching and learning— . i think it was einstein who said that if you keep on doing the same thing , you 'll get the same result . so , you 're going to have to change something , and what 's changing is the curriculum . i think there 's general consensus that this is the right approach to improve the quality of teaching . and that 's exactly what all schools need to do now : to think how does this new curriculum affect them in their particular school , in their particular circumstances , in the context of their particular children . how can they use this opportunity now to improve the teaching and learning in their school ? lynne neagle am: siân . sian gwenllian am: it does cause one concern , because if the teaching and learning standards just stay the same in the secondary sector , and we know that 12 per cent of secondary schools are under estyn review and 11 per cent of them are in special measures , we 're talking about half of the schools almost , and no improvement in the teaching quality in general . so , there is a major cohort of children captured in that situation , and then there 's a new curriculum that comes in . i see the opportunities , but these schools that are doing well are going to go , 'wow , up there ' , but schools are there in the bottom layer and one is genuinely concerned about those children in those schools . is n't that where the focus should be and any additional funding that 's allocated ? you talked about releasing teachers for training , but perhaps it 's in those particular schools that we need to focus . meilyr rowlands: i do agree that the best schools will welcome the opportunities and that their standards will improve even more . but then , with regard to the other schools , in a way , there are two very broad categories , which are those that need only a little support just to help them to improve— . and i believe that the new curriculum and the general support that 's going to be surrounding that will be the solution for those schools . it 's going to be an opportunity for the quality of the teaching and the learning to improve . but you 're right to say that there is another smaller cohort that has a much greater need for support , and they 're going to find coping with the new curriculum difficult , because they 'll also have many other problems . so , i do agree— . and you 're not talking about a huge number of schools—some 200 secondary schools is what we have in wales , so that percentage is relatively small , the number is relatively small—but they need much greater support . that is why this pilot scheme of the multi-agency approach of supporting those schools is important . i do believe that you 're right to say that there are funding implications to supporting those schools . i do n't think it 's enormous , but certainly there 's a certain amount of funding that is needed to offer those schools that support . lynne neagle am: thank you . janet . janet finch-saunders am: thank you , chair . the minister recently told the committee that a number of recent estyn inspections of local authorities ' education services have been disappointing . do you agree ? that , of course , is based on the inspections carried out under the current cycle . meilyr rowlands: yes , indeed . i think we 've done nine inspections of local authorities ' education services so far this cycle . we 've got another two this academic year . we 'll have done half of them by the end of the academic year . we 'll then evaluate how things have gone . but of those nine we 've put three into category—we 've identified them as causing concern—and they 're pembrokeshire , powys and wrexham . so , we do have concerns about those authorities . so , we 'll be supporting those authorities , moving forward . but i think a common factor in those inspections was secondary schools . so , we 've talking quite a bit about secondary schools this morning , and i think that , again , is a factor in those local authorities . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . you say that the proportion of secondary schools causing concern is a challenge for several local authorities and for the system as a whole . which local authorities are these—you 've probably named them all—and have these been inspected yet under the current cycle ? meilyr rowlands: i think you 're taking about three secondary schools in a category in pembrokeshire , wrexham and torfaen . so , we 've inspected pembrokeshire and wrexham already , but we have n't inspected torfaen yet . and two schools in a category in powys , newport and gwynedd . and we 've inspected powys and newport , but we have n't inspected gwynedd yet . so , in answer to your question : we 've inspected most of those , but not all of them . janet finch-saunders am: okay . what is your latest assessment of how well the regional consortia are supporting and driving school improvement ? does this vary across the different regions ? meilyr rowlands: it certainly does vary , but i 'll ask jassa to go into more detail . jassa scott: we have n't directly inspected the regional consortia since—i think 2017 was the last time we did some direct monitoring with them . but i think , over the last three years , we do feel that they 've improved their knowledge . they 're still relatively new in the big scheme of things . so , they did take a little while to embed , and i think that came across when we did the work that we did with them back in 2017. but , more recently , they 've improved their knowledge of individual schools ' strengths and areas for improvement , and they are using this knowledge better to support and challenge schools , and particularly schools causing concern . but obviously , as we 've been talking about this morning , there 's still work to do . i think they 've prioritised well the work that schools are doing around literacy and numeracy , but their support for schools to develop digital competence has been a bit weaker . even though we 've had the framework as an early part of the curriculum developments there , we have n't seen quite the focus that we 've seen on other areas . i think for schools causing concern , what we found—and we do look at their work through our local authority inspection , so we are getting some first-hand evidence of their impact through that—they 're not always focused , in those schools causing concern , on improving teaching and learning , so actually getting in and looking and working with teachers and with staff to actually make improvements there . i think , generally , their support for secondary schools has had less impact across the consortia than it has for primary schools , and i think sometimes that 's because they 're struggling to recruit appropriate specialists , to support with secondary , or perhaps they do n't have the depth of strong practice that we talked about earlier within their region . so , they 're having to work a bit harder to find effective practice , to share practice and to get the secondary expertise and knowledge to support those schools . we will be , over the next year , looking specifically at the work of consortia to support curriculum reform work . well , we think we will be—we haven ’ t had our remit letter yet . but that 's one of the areas we 've discussed , about doing some specific work on over the next year to look in a bit more depth . janet finch-saunders am: so , what is the cycle of inspections for regional consortia , and how robust are those inspections ? what areas do you cover ? jassa scott: well , regional consortia are n't actually statutory entities at the moment , and we do n't have specific inspection powers relating to regional consortia . what we have are powers to inspect school improvement . so , on each of our local authority inspections , there will be , usually , an area that we 're looking at that relates to school improvement , and that would involve us looking at the work of the consortia that the local authority has commissioned . what we 've agreed with welsh government is that , over the next few years , we will take a thematic approach . so , the first area that we 've said is that we 'll look specifically at how each of them is supporting curriculum reform , and report on that . so , that will report specifically on the different ones , but it would n't be the same as doing an inspection of their work at this time . janet finch-saunders am: should they be on a statutory footing ? jassa scott: well , i think that 's something to be discussed over the next few years . there 's , obviously , local government legislation that has been debated recently , which has the potential to create corporate joint committees , and school improvement was one of the areas that is being considered there . so , there may be an opportunity , if that 's created , to think how we then adapt inspection to look specifically at that . so , i think there is an opportunity . i think we do get a handle on their work through the local authority and , ultimately , it 's looking at what that consortia brings to that local authority and to the schools and the pupils in that area that 's the important bit , i think , ultimately , to see the impact there . so , we are looking at them in that way , and then taking that thematic approach , but we 'll keep reviewing it over the next couple of years . janet finch-saunders am: thank you . and what are estyn 's views on the latest position regarding regional working in south-west and mid wales ? would it be preferable for school improvement advisers to be based in the consortium , education through regional work , rather than each local authority employing their own , as is the case at present ? meilyr rowlands: if i can just go back to the last question as well , what we did in order to inspect regions was we paused our local authority inspection cycle back in 2014 , i think , for about three years . so , then , we spent time looking at regions , basically , because we did n't have the resource to do both at the same time . so , we 're in negotiation with welsh government currently , so that , going forward , we can look at local authorities and regions at the same time . if regions become statutory entities , that would be in legislation , and then you could have legislation that gives us directly the powers to inspect them , which we do n't currently have . so , we have to , effectively , wait for welsh government to ask us to do that work . but , as jassa said , currently , what we intend to do in the short is to do some thematic work on that . in terms of erw , they were the region that , at the end of the last cycle of regional inspections , we were still monitoring . we are concerned about their progress , particularly in the light of recent developments . so , for example , the chair of the joint committee has resigned , the managing director remains a temporary appointment and there are no clear plans for a permanent leadership . some of the leadership team have left—the capacity has gone down—and various staff that were appointed last summer have already left . the budget has not been agreed and certain key meetings—executive board and joint committee meetings—have been cancelled . so , we are particularly worried about erw , and , because of that , we will be going in to visit them in april—next month—and we 'll be visiting all of the authorities to make sure that they do have a plan for an appropriate school improvement service going forward . but , jassa , probably , can say a little bit more about our plans there . jassa scott: yes , i think you asked a specific question about , you know , which is better . i think our view has been that , generally , the local authorities are too small to deliver that whole range of school improvement services , particularly given the national reform agenda at the moment . we felt last summer , when we went to erw , that they 'd managed to reach the best possible model , given the constraint they 've placed , collectively , on themselves—that they want to deliver aspects of school improvement locally , through the local authorities , and have some central capacity . so , we felt that , given that they wanted to do some locally and some centrally , enough thought had been put into that structure last summer and that it could be workable . there were key aspects such as support for secondary schools causing concern and there was some capacity centrally that could support areas such as powys . unfortunately , as meilyr has described , some of those aspects have since been disbanded or those staff who were on secondment have gone back , so i think it is a key risk , particularly for some of those authorities you 've talked about that are causing concern , such as powys or pembrokeshire—that they have n't necessarily got that local capacity to support their schools causing concern . so , you 've got some concerns within school capacity and you 've got concerns about local authority capacity , and what you do n't have there now is that collective capacity centrally that might support them . so , that 's why we 're going to go and do a slightly more detailed link visit to try to understand how they are mitigating the risks that we see are arising as a result of some of those things that have happened recently . our understanding is that there 's a joint committee meeting of erw on 19 march , so , hopefully , after that point , we 'll have a little bit more information about how they 're planning to manage that collective set of services going forward—it 's a little bit of an unknown at the moment . meilyr rowlands: you were asking , 'would it be better for every authority to have their own team ? ' but , before regions were invented , if you like , we were saying consistently that they tended to be too small . what happened in practice was that authorities did come together voluntarily to have joint advisory services . so , you had cynnal in the north west , you had the education and school improvement service , you had gwent—so , they naturally did come together in groups , maybe a little bit smaller than the current regions , but they , of their own accord , produced something not very dissimilar to a region . lynne neagle am: siân , did you have a supplementary ? sian gwenllian am: yes , just on erw . does the fact that there is a dispute on the highest level feed down to the school and to the children ? are the children in south-west and mid wales affected by this ? are standards decreasing in that part of wales ? meilyr rowlands: well , it 's difficult to say directly , but we have inspected nine authorities and two of those are in that area , so , the lack of support at that level , as jassa was saying , may be the reason why those authorities are suffering difficulties . jassa scott: and it is clear that many people across that area are expending energy and time discussing these issues . any reorganisation does take energy out of the system , so it is clear that that time is n't then being spent , perhaps , on investment in improving schools and supporting staff in schools . so , as meilyr says , it 's not clear , but a lot of energy is being expended in that particular discussion that is ongoing . lynne neagle am: janet . janet finch-saunders am: what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? and i 've got to be honest , up in the north , i know that there are concerns about regional consortia , and when local authorities are under pressure financially , it questions , sometimes , the value of regional consortia . so , what disadvantages could there be from neath port talbot 's intention to withdraw from regional working via erw ? meilyr rowlands: i think we 've talked in general terms and we feel that local authorities probably are too small on their own . in general terms , you ca n't say that any particular authority could n't , maybe , put things together in such a way that it 's effective . also , it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the consortium , if one withdraws . i do n't know whether , jassa , you 've got anything to add to the general points we 've made . jassa scott: i mean , i think , what you 've alluded to there , it has the potential to be a destabilising factor across the whole of the national model that we 've got for supporting school improvement at a time where welsh government are kind of relying heavily on that consortium model to help support curriculum reform and to drive professional learning and be the conduit for lots of the aspects of reform that we 've talked about . so , i think that potential risk of any destabilising across the system is a disadvantage generally . i think— . clearly , we 've talked about that capacity at a local level . there is that aspect of what that means in terms of the joint capacity across the other authorities there . and i think it 's just what i 've already talked about in terms of being a distraction at a crucial time for support where schools need to feel that they 're confident in where they need to go for support . i should say that we 're planning , as part of that visit that we do in april , to survey schools in that region about the support that they 're getting , be that from their authority or from the central teams in erw . that 's something we did at the time when we did the inspections previously , and we thought it would be helpful to get some first-hand views of any disadvantages or impact that they might be feeling , really . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . and then , finally , for me : what involvement has estyn had with the strategic education delivery group chaired by professor dylan jones and what are your expectations for how it will improve the work of the middle tier ? meilyr rowlands: we 've been members of that group right from the beginning . i personally am on it and colleagues are on it as well , and i 'm a member of the sub-group that does some of the background work for that group as well , and estyn has given several presentations to that group . i think the group is important . i remember commenting the first time it met that it was welcoming . the rather obvious thing is that you get all the strategic educational organisations together in one room , but it had never been done before , as far as i know . so , it was a really important step forward for that to happen . i 'm a very firm believer in making those relationships , building those relationships , so that people understand what each of us contributes to the whole of the education system . we need to have that forum to be able to make sure that we 're clear about what each of our roles is . janet finch-saunders am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 've got some questions now from dawn bowden . dawn bowden am: thank you , chair . morning , all . in your report you talked about in early settings where skills development is less effective , that children begin to feel at a very early age that they ca n't do certain things . i do n't know whether that is anecdotal evidence or is that specific outcome-based evidence—whatever , it 's quite worrying . but what do you think the long-term effect on a child 's development has in that respect ? claire morgan: it 's probably worth saying that skill development is a strength in about three quarters of our schools—primary schools and early years settings . but in a minority of schools and settings , as you 've picked up , children are often introduced to things too early . so , they 're introduced to phonics , they 're introduced to learning to read , when they 're not at that developmental stage . and really , long term , it means the children lose confidence , because if they 're introduced to these things too early they do n't succeed , they tend to need additional support , and it can give them a negative impression , it can give them negative thoughts about their ability . so , we need to address that , and really it 's about— dawn bowden am: sorry , what sort of age range are we talking about here ? claire morgan: these would be children from three to five . dawn bowden am: okay . claire morgan: so , this is very , very early on . dawn bowden am: and is there something , then , in that—and i do n't think there 's much we can do about that , but it may be in terms of the way that the schools or the early learning settings address this—you will have children at a very young age that have almost a year 's difference in their age group , so they 're born just before 1 september or just after 1 september ? so , that 's a huge gap , is n't it , at that point in their development ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: is that not being addressed in a way that those children are being taught and approached at that age ? claire morgan: yes . dawn bowden am: right , okay . that 's fine . in terms of reading and literacy skills , we still remain quite low in the programme for international student assessment ratings for reading , and i know there is a particular concern about the impact on boys in that regard . what do you think are the most pressing priorities that face them around reading and literacy ? meilyr rowlands: i think literacy has been , and still is , and still needs to be a top priority . i mean , literacy clearly is something that underpins the rest of education , so it really does need to be a top priority . i think it has been a high priority , but we need to continue prioritising it . we 've seen some improvements over the years . for example , we 've given a lot of attention to writing over the years , and making sure that children get the opportunity to write in an extended way , not just short sentences , but having the opportunity to have extended writing , and there 's some evidence that that now is beginning to have an effect . but almost ironically , the same sort of issue is true of reading . so , it 's not just reading small little snippets—we need to encourage children to have a love for reading and read whole books . so , i gave a little bit of attention to that in the annual report—that that needs attention . i think the other thing i would emphasise is that this is not just for the foundation phase , it 's not just for very young children—it 's really important at key stage 2 and in secondary school . one of the things we have been worried about , and i think there was some reflection of this in pisa , is that there are strengths in reading in wales . so , pisa , for example , said that children in wales are very good at comparing lots of little snippets , but what they 're saying , and they 're saying this themselves , is that the love of books is decreasing , and the number of children who read regularly whole books . so , i think there is something there for teachers to set and model a good example , to show their own interest in reading , to encourage children to read themselves . dawn bowden am: it 's probably a wider societal problem as well , is n't it ? i 'm thinking about gaming , electronic gaming , computers . meilyr rowlands: absolutely . i think there is some sort of link with the digital world , and the way people read—the actual technique of reading , is evolving . but i think reading is so important , and developing a complex vocabulary is so important in being able to communicate , in order to get a good job , to have enjoyment out of life—all of those things are so important . we ourselves are going to give this quite a lot of priority in future , so we 're doing a major piece of work on language acquisition , which will cover some of this next year . every year one of our thematics is the major bit of work we do , and we try to support that with a conference . so , that will be the focus that we give to our work next year—it is on language acquisition . dawn bowden am: okay , thank you for that . just one other supplementary on that , i guess , is whether you have a good idea of how many young people are coming out of school at 16—so , those that are not staying on to do a-levels—and are coming out with an inability to read or white . do we know what the figure is for that ? meilyr rowlands: i ca n't tell you that off the top of my head , but i 'm sure that there will be evidence . that 's not something we inspect as such . dawn bowden am: no , no , but there should be evidence around that . okay . jassa scott: there has been a shift in that there 's been continued emphasis in post-16 education and training around literacy and picking that up . for example , anyone who 's studying in a further education college will have to do resits . there 's an aim to try and get everyone to a basic level . in apprenticeships they 'll use essential skills and so on to try and get that basic level of literacy as well , so there is an emphasis . i think one of the worrying indications , maybe , that post-16 sectors find is that sometimes even when learners are coming out with a basic qualification in a gcse , potentially in english or a literature subject , they do n't necessarily have a really good foundation of some of the basic skills as well . so , there is a lot of work to do in this area . dawn bowden am: okay , all right . could i just move you on— ? sorry— meilyr rowlands: the only thing i would add to that is , i guess , it 's quite small , the number of people who do n't have basic reading . i think one of the things we need to emphasise is that learning reading is something you do throughout your life , and what we need to do is to develop , in particular , pupils ' higher level reading skills . the fact that they can just read is n't the end of the story ; they need to be developing those higher level reading skills and continuing to widen the range of things they read , and be able to develop their vocabulary at a higher level . dawn bowden am: and their comprehension , i guess . meilyr rowlands: sorry ? dawn bowden am: and their comprehension as well . meilyr rowlands: absolutely , yes—those higher level skills of comprehension and inference and those sorts of things . dawn bowden am: sure , okay . can i just move you on , then , to numeracy and whether you can tell us if you 're satisfied with the progress in numeracy , because i think we were doing better on the pisa results in maths in wales than we did previously ? so , what are your thoughts on that ? meilyr rowlands: i think there is a fairly clear good news story here . pisa shows improvements and a lot of that can be attributed , i think , to the new gcse mathematics numeracy . i think there 's much less predictability in that work ; you ca n't approach it in a formulaic way , either the pupils or the teachers in terms of teaching it . there 's much more problem solving . it 's about applying what you 've learnt in the core mathematics lessons to new situations in subjects across the curriculum . i think that that gcse numeracy has built on the work that 's been done lower down on the national numeracy framework , which has the same philosophy of applying that mathematics knowledge in a problem-solving situation . that has been a really good news story , really . dawn bowden am: that 's something to be positive about , anyway . that 's good . my final question , chair , is : in your view , to what extent is wales on track to meet the target of 500 points in each of the domains in the 2020-1 cycle for pisa ? meilyr rowlands: i think that that target is somewhat arbitrary , but assuming that we continue on this journey that we are on—the current change programme of the new curriculum and so forth—i think we would expect to see those improvements we 've seen in science and in mathematics to continue . we 've talked about reading and i think we will be giving more attention to reading . i think the education system more generally , hopefully , will give more attention to reading . so , i would hope to see improvements there as well . the only other thing i would add is that there is some research that indicates or suggests that the effect of schools is greater on mathematics and science than on reading , and the reason for that is you do n't do a lot mathematics or science in the home . but the attitude towards reading is very much dependent on family and community factors , more so , maybe , than mathematics and science . so , i think that 's another reason why i think a community-school approach is really important . you need to get everybody on board ; it 's not just what the teacher does in the classroom—it 's important that the whole family and the community thinks that reading is important . dawn bowden am: just on numeracy , it was interesting because one of the schools in my constituency have actually contacted my office and a number of other organisations across the constituency to ask us how we use maths in our work . so , they 're obviously trying to relate that now to everyday life and working , which i thought was quite good . meilyr rowlands: that 's good . lynne neagle am: we 've got some questions now around progress of specific groups of pupils . if i can start and ask you how concerning is it that the gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and other pupils has not narrowed in the last 10 years , especially given the £475 million pupil deprivation grant investment . meilyr rowlands: yes . i think secondary schools and the issue of poverty were the two things i 've noted in the annual report . so , i think it is a concern to us . i think it is worth also remembering that compared to other countries , for example , in pisa , we do compare quite well in terms of equity . there 's also an argument that maybe poverty and austerity have increased , so that we 're in a way running to keep still . and i think also , as i was suggesting about the reading , poverty really is a social phenomenon . schools ca n't solve that on their own . so , there are a lot of caveats to be made around the fact that that poverty gap has n't closed , but that 's not to say that schools ca n't do something about it , and i 've suggested in the annual report a sort of a two-pronged approach . one is the new curriculum . i think there is evidence in the international research that teaching and learning , better teaching and learning , helps disadvantaged poor pupils disproportionately . so , they gain more from it that their peers . so , i think improving teaching and learning , and we discussed that earlier this morning about how the new curriculum is really all about improving the quality of teaching and learning in the classroom . so , that 's one approach , and then the other approach , which i 've also mentioned earlier , is having a community-focused approach to schools . the schools that do more successfully tackle the poverty gap are the schools that take that kind of approach . it means helping the pupils . it means helping their families . it 's about making pupil well-being really high on the agenda . it 's very difficult for children to do well in school if they 've got all kinds of things happening in their background . so , it 's important that schools can maybe signpost those families to other services that can support them and help them . so , it 's quite a complex— . it 's challenging for schools to go down this route , and i think the more help we can give schools to take that approach , the better . but the schools that do do it do benefit a lot from it . they have better engagement from parents , from the families , and that then reflects back on the work of the children . jassa scott: and we 've just published a collection of good practice about how schools support vulnerable learners , and we 'll be teasing out the aspects around community-focused schools a lot more in a report that we 'll publish in the next couple of months . so , we 've kind of drilled down and looked at what some schools are doing in that area in a bit more detail . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , on this . suzy davies am: yes , just quickly . obviously , i think we 've all been to schools where the pdg is actually used to engage parents more for exactly the reasons you say . but i just wanted to interrogate the deprivation gap a little bit , because , of course , even though , as you say , there 's perhaps more equity in wales , one of the reasons for that is because our children from better-off backgrounds do less well , and considerably less well than their peers in the other parts of the united kingdom . so , whereas their attainment gaps are pretty dreadful , that 's one of the reasons—that our better-off children are n't doing as well as perhaps they might do . is that a concern as well ? we do n't want this rush to the middle , do we ? meilyr rowlands: i think it 's essential that all groups of pupils do as well as they possibly can , absolutely . so , it 's not quite the same issue , but we 've talked about the importance of making sure that more able and talented children do well . suzy davies am: they 're not the same . meilyr rowlands: they 're not the same , clearly , because you have more able and talented children from poor backgrounds . differentiation is a challenge for schools , but it 's absolutely essential that all groups of children do as well as they possibly can . so , in things like pisa , in terms of reading , for example , we ca n't just say it 's that group that needs to improve—all the groups need to improve . and i think that 's why something like the new curriculum gives schools more scope to tailor their teaching and learning to the particular groups that they have , whether they ’ re more able , whether they 're advantaged or whether they 're disadvantaged . suzy davies am: okay , thanks . thank you , lynne . lynne neagle am: okay . pupils ' confidence in their school 's ability to help them with their emotional and mental well-being is much less at secondary school and that 's been a consistent theme as well from your reports . why do you think that is ? jassa scott: yes , you 're right . as we mentioned earlier , we do pupil surveys before all our inspections , and across a number of those indicators , like , 'how well does the school listen ? do adults in school care about me ? how well does the school deal with bullying ? '—quite a lot those ones around well-being do tail off . nine out of 10 pupils at key stage 2 have that confidence , down to half at key stage 4 , as you say . and i think there are a number of factors that we think contribute to that : i think one of the factors is that pupils face , sometimes , more challenges as they get older in those teenage years , but they also become more reflective and perhaps more discerning . and i think what we find in secondary schools is perhaps secondary school pupils notice sometimes the differences between their everyday life that they experience in school and perhaps the messages that they 're getting about well-being in terms of their lessons , in terms of assemblies and in terms of school policies and so on . so , they are probably more discerning in noticing those differences and maybe there are some of those differences also there in primary school , but the pupils do n't notice . i think we 've already touched upon things like the differences in the way that , at primary school , you would tend to have a go-to adult , which is your teacher . the best secondary schools find ways to make sure that pupils do feel that level of support and feel there are trusted people , but it 's more of a challenge to make sure that that happens , because of the way they 're operating . we still have some concerns about personal and social education and the health and well-being support , which we 've made a recommendation about in the past in some of our thematic reports , but also recently in some of our secondary school inspection reports . and i think i already touched upon the fact that sometimes , when the budget is tight , it can be some of those—they 're not peripheral in their importance , but they 're not the teacher in the classroom : well-being support assistants and so on and family liaison workers—staff in the school who perhaps really support that pastoral care that the school as a whole can provide—it may be that those are the roles that are less prevalent at times of less funding . so , i think there are some great members of staff doing a really good job , but perhaps they 're not those members of staff who can support teachers and support pupils in creating that kind of caring environment . maybe there a fewer of them around . so , i think there 's not an obvious answer and part of it is that they do become more discerning and perhaps more vocal in those responses generally , as they get older . so , you might have a truer reflection of opinions than perhaps— . and that might explain some of the difference with primary , where , generally , they 're quite positive about everything across most of the schools that we ask . lynne neagle am: so , it 's not that secondary schools—because you 've said that in a previous inspection report—are just not as good at prioritising mental health and well-being . jassa scott: i think there 's an element that it 's more of a challenge for a secondary school to provide an effective set of support from that whole-staff awareness of some of the challenges . and one of the pieces of work we 've done recently is around adverse childhood experiences , and we have found that primary schools have taken that and embraced it . once you 've trained your staff , then they 've got that knowledge . they 're the ones who are working day to day with the schools . secondary schools have n't always taken a whole-school approach to that . they might have trained a set of staff . so , maybe not every member of staff has the same level of understanding , but also those staff are n't spending the same amount of time with pupils . so , in terms of getting to know pupils , picking up on signs that they may be struggling , or that there might be concerns—it 's much more of a challenge . you 've got to work a lot harder as a secondary school to make sure that staff have that knowledge and that you 've got the tracking systems that can put those different bits of information together to actually mean that you can target support where it 's needed . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy . suzy davies am: i 'm just thinking again about specific groups of pupils . obviously , we 've had one case in north wales , in an independent school , where there were serious concerns . what 's that done to your desire to monitor and check what 's going on in these independent schools ? are they regulated sufficiently ? jassa scott: i 'll pick up on that as well . just to explain how we work with independent schools , initially , to give the context . so , there are different kinds of independent schools . so , some have boarding provision , and where they have boarding provision , care inspectorate wales would look at the boarding side of it , we 'd look at the educational side of it . there are others where they may have a linked children 's home , which can be another room in the same house , or it can be a number of miles away , and similarly there ciw would look at the residential aspects of the care and we 'd look at the school . so , i think , there 's a focus in the independent school standards regulations , which is a minimum that all schools have to meet to maintain a registration . there is a focus in that on how that school looks after and cares for its pupils , and there are focuses on that element of boarding provision where relevant , and the national minimum standards that the care inspectorate look at that have aspects around supporting well-being as well . what we do find in our inspections is that , overall , we generally find that pupils ' well-being develops , they make good progress , and that care , support and guidance that schools give is good . what we mean by that , really , practically , is that they are developing their resilience and their self-esteem . in special schools , this might mean particularly that those pupils learn to manage their anxieties better so that they improve their behaviour , which may be one of the reasons why they 're in that specialist setting . in mainstream independent schools , what we find is that people develop their tenacity , their curiosity for learning—their resilience in that way . but there are shortcomings sometimes . for example , there was one school where we found that they were n't making appropriate referrals to child and adolescent mental health services . so , these schools do operate independently by their nature , and their awareness , perhaps , of some of the guidance and support that is out there—sometimes , maybe , there can be more to be done , and i think we 've talked to welsh government about that . suzy davies am: what 's estyn 's role in that—to bring that level of awareness to those schools ? jassa scott: i think we do through our inspection guidance , and the independent school standards do refer to welsh government guidance—it 's something like 'keeping learners safe ' , which is a really key document , which supports safeguarding and caring across schools . that 's regularly discussed and talked about and referred to with those schools . so , i think the other area is that sometimes we do n't have the intelligence about what— . so , for example , if there 's been a safeguarding referral from a school , we do n't necessarily always get that information , which means that when we do go to inspect , we may not have the full picture to help us tailor our inspection activity . so , that 's something we 've raised— lynne neagle am: [ inaudible . ] —be brief and brief in answers . suzy davies am: al right , okay . do you mind if i move on to the next question ? lynne neagle am: we 're going to have to skip those , i 'm afraid , and talk to the last set of questions , just because of the time pressures . hefin . hefin david am: i 'd like to ask in welsh , please . what role , if any , did estyn have in the organisation for economic co-operation and development 's latest review of progress in school improvement when they visited wales in late 2019 ? meilyr rowlands: well , we were interviewed . therefore , the three of us had an interview with the oecd officials and we offered evidence to them . and i think that , when the report is published , you will see that the oecd does draw on our broader evidence and will be quoting our reports—the annual report and some of our thematic reports . that is the part that we played in that work . hefin david am: thanks . how significant a role do you believe the national evaluation and improvement resource will play in raising school standards ? meilyr rowlands: i think that it 's very important . it 's claire who has been specifically tasked with that , so i 'll ask claire to speak about it . claire morgan: i think working together with the practitioners , the regions and representatives from local authorities is a great opportunity to develop a national approach , because we know across wales there 's some excellent practice , but we know there are schools that struggle to bring about improvement . so , this national resource has the potential to provide schools with detailed guidance on how they can approach not only self-evaluation , but , more importantly , how they can bring about that improvement . so , it will be a resource that develops over time . it 's starting—we 're piloting currently with around 40 schools . half of those have been involved in developing the tools and approaches right from the start , and 22 new schools have come on board this year . but we anticipate that there will be lots of tools and approaches within that resource that schools can use to improve the quality of self-evaluation throughout the school , primaries , secondaries , prus and special schools . but it will focus on establishing a culture within the school that focuses on improvement , that establishes a reflective culture where all staff are involved in development . so , we 're hoping that this tool—it 's still currently in development , but we hope that that will support schools really well . hefin david am: so , it 's an evolving piece of work . claire morgan: yes , it is . hefin david am: okay . and , with regard to comparison of performance , does the lack of comparative attainment data raise difficulties when you 're inspecting and drawing conclusions and standards in schools ? meilyr rowlands: not really , no . i think there was a bit of a myth that a lot of this performance data was just for estyn , but actually it never has been . when we inspect , we look at a whole range of aspects of the work . we look at standards , we look at teaching and learning in the classroom , we look at well-being , we look at care support and guidance , we look at leadership , we look at all of these things , and we look at it based on first-hand evidence—what we actually see in the classroom . so , we 're quite happy to continue to inspect schools , and we in fact support having less emphasis on data because , although data is useful , and we hope that schools will continue to analyse their data and use that data to help them self-improve and self-evaluate , we do n't actually need it and it has actually created a bit of a high-stakes culture . so , i think stepping back from that culture is a good idea . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much . we 've come to the end of our time , so can i thank you all for your attendance ? as usual , you 'll receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting . but thank you very much again for coming in this morning . meilyr rowlands: diolch yn fawr—thank you . lynne neagle am: item 3 , then , is papers to note . paper to note 1 is a ministerial update on the emotional and mental health of children and young people in wales—next steps for 'mind over matter ' . paper to note 2 is a letter from the minister for housing and local government regarding teachers ' pay and pensions , and paper to note 3 is a letter to the minister for education from us regarding the school funding review . are members happy to note those ? thank you . can i then propose under standing order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? are members content ? great . okay . thank you .

he believed literacy still needed to be the top priority , because it was something that underpinned the rest of education . yet work was still needed to be done to continue prioritizing it .